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i have the clown tree frogs around before! I was wondering if anybody new a good site to buy 2/3. How similar are they to GTF or RETF or the like.

Then the few basic questions
-what size tank?
-Gradient
-breeding
-general info

i cant find a lot on these guys...
 

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I like the zoomed 18x18x24 for these frogs I have 2 in there atm, looks like plenty of room for 1-2 more. You could also set up a 29 vertical and put 3 in there comfortably. Care is basic to retf found most of my info in search, also a good article in reptiles from [email protected] is great and where i got mine at. They are sooo [email protected] oow and getting bolder. 12/12 lightcycle is working good eating 1/8 crickets and hydel ff. Im definately interested in 1 or 2 more,[email protected] :D
 

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What do you think i could put with them in a 18x18x24 exo terra...I am aware mixing different species can be bad but i have had a success with mixing 3)fire belly toads, 2)gray tree frogs, a red crab, and an american toad (a.k.a M. Toad) all have been place in a 40 breeder and haven't had an issue...and I am curious how they would do in a cage designed for darts as well? They are from the amazon so i figured fine with high humidity and a circulation fan.
 

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I think mixing would probably be fine ive never tried it but it also depends on what you mixing. If you were going to mix i would be careful that they wouldn't eat each other And for your other question if the air is circulating i think it would be fine. Oh ya 18x18x24 would be fine for these guys
 

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What do you think i could put with them in a 18x18x24 exo terra...I am aware mixing different species can be bad but i have had a success with mixing 3)fire belly toads, 2)gray tree frogs, a red crab, and an american toad (a.k.a M. Toad) all have been place in a 40 breeder and haven't had an issue...and I am curious how they would do in a cage designed for darts as well? They are from the amazon so i figured fine with high humidity and a circulation fan.
^ Don't do what this guy's doing.

Pat
 

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I have had one of these for about a year. He doesn't seem to like crickets much. They usually grow up in the tank and eat my broms. FF's disappear, but I'm not sure he eats them or they escape. About every two weeks, I put a BB culture in there and release a bunch. He must be getting enough to eat because he doesn't seem to be underweight and there is plenty of evidence that he is eating. He is in a ten gal vert which seems sufficient. I don't think he ever goes to the bottom, mostly stays in the top part.
 

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I found that it was frustrating not being able to mix species. I have a tank with a fire bellied toad and a tank with a green tree frog. The green tree frog stays at the top, the Toad stayed in the water, so it seemed like they could coexist, but I took the advice of just about every member of dendroboard, and didn't mix them. The only problem with mixing them would be 1) toxins from fire bellied toad, and 2) Fire bellied toad got all the food. anyone have anything else to add?

Will
 

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I found that it was frustrating not being able to mix species. I have a tank with a fire bellied toad and a tank with a green tree frog. The green tree frog stays at the top, the Toad stayed in the water, so it seemed like they could coexist, but I took the advice of just about every member of dendroboard, and didn't mix them. The only problem with mixing them would be 1) toxins from fire bellied toad, and 2) Fire bellied toad got all the food. anyone have anything else to add?

Will
Actually those are not the only reasons to not mix species from seperate geographic regions. Mixing animals from different regions allows parasites and pathogens to jump hosts and adapt. This can result in epidemics that can cause a lot of problems such as the mycoplasma epidemic that is killing off native tortoises in the Gopherous genus (and box turtles now), ranaviruses, and there is not evidence that the strains of chyrid killing amphibians globally may be the result of more than one strain with little or low impact on the amphibians, being able to mix resulting in increased lethality.

Do not mix species from seperate regions.

Ed
 

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I found that it was frustrating not being able to mix species. I have a tank with a fire bellied toad and a tank with a green tree frog. The green tree frog stays at the top, the Toad stayed in the water, so it seemed like they could coexist, but I took the advice of just about every member of dendroboard, and didn't mix them. The only problem with mixing them would be 1) toxins from fire bellied toad, and 2) Fire bellied toad got all the food. anyone have anything else to add?

Will
the toxin thing was what i worried about to but i have had them for 2 years before i mixed and they lost their toxins after the first year. Its no different then when darts lose their toxins from not getting the proper toxins from the bugs they eat which is a result from captivity...and i feed them about 6 dozen crickets for a week and a half...the toad sits on a log the fbts r in the water and the grays chill in the plants but when feeding time comes around they all get their fair share due to having so many crickets in their with them...You can beat me down about the mixing but havent had an issue for over a year now and they all coexist...the crab is dead which i was assuming was going to happen due to not having brackish water. I have done my research and as wrong as some of you think they are fine
 

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i have the clown tree frogs around before! I was wondering if anybody new a good site to buy 2/3. How similar are they to GTF or RETF or the like.

Then the few basic questions
-what size tank?
-Gradient
-breeding
-general info

i cant find a lot on these guys...
Contact Mike Novy if you are looking to purchase a few more of these guys. He specializing in tree frogs
 

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the toxin thing was what i worried about to but i have had them for 2 years before i mixed and they lost their toxins after the first year.
Where did you get the information that the toads (and frogs) lose thier toxins in a year or even two? I'm flagging it because that is incorrect. If you don't believe me stress one of those toads until it begins to secrete the toxins and rub some of it on a mucous membrane like your tongue or eye. I think you'll be very surprised at how much of a problem it causes you. First off, Bombina ssp do not get thier toxins from thier prey items. The make them.... second, they do not lose thier toxicity in captivity and third, even with those anurans that do sequester toxins from thier prey (examples dendrobatids, mantellas) they can take a decade or more to lose the alkaloid toxins and even captive bred dendrobatids that lack the alkaloids can still put a hurting on you. See for example this discussion http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012


At this moment, I'm trying to decide whether or not you are a troll since you are spouting incorrect information and making references to being beaten down (which hasn't happened yet) and claiming to have done your research which is clearly untrue.

Ed
 

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Where did you get the information that the toads (and frogs) lose thier toxins in a year or even two? I'm flagging it because that is incorrect. If you don't believe me stress one of those toads until it begins to secrete the toxins and rub some of it on a mucous membrane like your tongue or eye. I think you'll be very surprised at how much of a problem it causes you. First off, Bombina ssp do not get thier toxins from thier prey items. The make them.... second, they do not lose thier toxicity in captivity and third, even with those anurans that do sequester toxins from thier prey (examples dendrobatids, mantellas) they can take a decade or more to lose the alkaloid toxins and even captive bred dendrobatids that lack the alkaloids can still put a hurting on you. See for example this discussion http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012


At this moment, I'm trying to decide whether or not you are a troll since you are spouting incorrect information and making references to being beaten down (which hasn't happened yet) and claiming to have done your research which is clearly untrue.

Ed
i have done alot of research and the information that i received about bombina orientalis was from a breeder who cared for dendrobates aswell as a few bombina....i didnt think much of the toxin issue because the water is cycled well through a couple filters in the cage and havent had an issue...im not the first to mix bombina with other species such as Bufo americanus, Hyla versicolor, Hyla cinerea, etc.

None of my frogs are stressed and they all co-exist flag me if you want but its not changing how they are currently cared for. I,m not on this site for arguments or to get told how i care for my animals are wrong...Every one has their own opinions on how they care for an animal... i admit that your right about the toxins and that until now i didn't know that they still carried their toxins...I have been into herping for 4 years and i don't have the experience that you have... obviously but that doesn't change the fact that my animals aren't very well cared for and they aren't extremely healthy, or that my knowledge on these animals are completely wrong...

I'm not here to start a fight, i'm here to gain more knowledge and get ideas for future plaudariums.
 

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i have done alot of research and the information that i received about bombina orientalis was from a breeder who cared for dendrobates aswell as a few bombina....i didnt think much of the toxin issue because the water is cycled well through a couple filters in the cage and havent had an issue...im not the first to mix bombina with other species such as Bufo americanus, Hyla versicolor, Hyla cinerea, etc.
Regardless if other people have done it "safely", doesn't make it appropriate or correct (see below your quote below).

I was going to much more blunt but when I read the second part I decided to back off a little. The data on the toads continuing to be able to produce the toxins can be found here (and in other parts of the literature) See
http://www.pnas.org/content/92/1/9.full.pdf With the exception of alkaloids, most toxins are produced de novo by the frog/toad.)) This is well documented in the literature. I don't know who you are claiming as the "breeder" but if they told you that it is blantently wrong ... As for the dendrobatids, it is also well documented that even the toxic alkaloids that are aquired through the diet are retained for a much greater period of time than a year.... try potentially closer to a decade or more in some cases. The majority of the toxins are stored in glands in the skin and even those that have been excreted onto the skin are for the most part recycled when the frog consumes the shed skin the next day. What is true is that captive bred dendrobatids do not have the alkaloid toxins, this does not mean that the do not produce other peptides that are toxic to predators.

In addition to the above evidence on what you base the claim that filtering the water removes the toxins?

None of my frogs are stressed and they all co-exist flag me if you want but its not changing how they are currently cared for. I,m not on this site for arguments or to get told how i care for my animals are wrong...Every one has their own opinions on how they care for an animal... i admit that your right about the toxins and that until now i didn't know that they still carried their toxins...I have been into herping for 4 years and i don't have the experience that you have... obviously but that doesn't change the fact that my animals aren't very well cared for and they aren't extremely healthy, or that my knowledge on these animals are completely wrong...

I'm not here to start a fight, i'm here to gain more knowledge and get ideas for future plaudariums.
The way you come across is an invitation to a fight. The problem when you are mixing species from different geographic regions is that you are really setting the stage for a possible outbreak of pathogens/parasites. We have seen this in other animas for example the massive mortality caused by mycoplasma infections in native tortoises of the Genus Gopherus, and now box turtles. We also have seen massive mortalities from chytrid which appears to be the result of different geographical strains getting mixed together resulting in a massive pandemic. This is why the whole argument of "healthy", "stress free" or other claims are moot as this is a direct risk to the enviroment and native species already under pressure. The water that you dump down the drain or plant cuttings or substrate that is discarded is all a risk. This is one of the major reasons why animals from seperate regions should never be housed together. It is one of the simplest things we can do to protect the hobby and the enviroment. There is a petition that is under review in front of USF&W right now to ban the import and interstate transport of amphibians because of the risk of chytrid, you should do your best to help the hobby by not giving them more points as to why the hobby should be banned from interstate transport without certification that the animals, eggs or other materials are chytrid free.

Some comments,

Ed
 

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Ok, but niw that they are together and have been for almost a year. What do you think I should then? With the frogs? I appreciate the fact that you stopped and explained in more detail then blow it off.

Thanks
Steve

PS- then what are your views then if the frogs are from same geographic region? Such as the clown tree with hourglass tree frog?
 

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Ok, but niw that they are together and have been for almost a year. What do you think I should then? With the frogs? I appreciate the fact that you stopped and explained in more detail then blow it off.

Thanks
Steve

PS- then what are your views then if the frogs are from same geographic region? Such as the clown tree with hourglass tree frog?
With the mixture you have together, it is kind of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped but you can take some precautions about it for reducing the risk. First off, when you do water changes, add bleach to the water and allow to stand overnight before pouring it down the drain or outside. Materials from the cage should be double bagged and discarded into the proper waste stream, do not dump them outside or into a compost heap (this includes plant cuttings).

As for zoogeographically correct multispecies enclosures, it can be done, but you need to build the cage for the specific animals and account for the needed niches. The better the understanding of the needs of the animals you have, the better the chance of success. If you look in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html, you'll get a feel of the difficulties that are needed before attempting it.

Ed
 

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I read all 8 articles and i agree with pretty much all of what you said (the numbers made it alil complex lol). My view has been if (example) an anole needs 5 gallons of space,( lets ignore the geographical are rule for a sec), an american toad needs 10 gallons of space, and i have 3 toads and 2 anoles. I would keep them in a 55 cage so they have some cozy space. What are your views on this?
 

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I read all 8 articles and i agree with pretty much all of what you said (the numbers made it alil complex lol). My view has been if (example) an anole needs 5 gallons of space,( lets ignore the geographical are rule for a sec), an american toad needs 10 gallons of space, and i have 3 toads and 2 anoles. I would keep them in a 55 cage so they have some cozy space. What are your views on this?
The problem is that this oversimplifies the issue as the volume doesn't tell you anything about whether those areas are really good for the animals or are they just "making do" with suboptimal conditions. As an extreme example, you can have a volume that is one inch high, one inch deep and 1,155 inches long (there are 231 cubic inches in a gallon) but obviously the volume in this example is unsuitable for the animals. This is the other side of the coin when recommending volumes as a method of determing spatial needs. In reality, the spatial needs are determined by the resources required to ensure the behavioral and metabolic needs of the animals. As an example, the anole requires a basking site and ideally some UVB (to allow it to behaviorally modify it's D3 stores) along with the dusted food items, perches that allow it to move to regulate it's body temeprature (if you have the UVB source and the heat lamp close together, then the anole can get UVB damage from overexposure), the perches need to dry out between spraying or the anole can get fungal infections, and there needs to be a way to feed the anole. The toads require a damp substrate, an ability to get away from over-exposure of the UVB light, and to avoid the extra heat from the basking site of the anole. We can go on with the discussion of the niches but I think you should get the general idea.
The other thing to keep in mind is that when discussing success for a year is that the life span of some of those animals in captivity can far exceed that with even modest care (some Bufo species can live for up to 40 years or more (check out this site http://www.pondturtle.com/lfrog.html (even though they are highly outdated the data is still relevent to this discussion)) and even Bombina can live for more than 20 years (I've worked with them that were well over 15 years and were originally wild collected animals).

In general, it takes a lot of forthought and knowledge to put together an enclosure that allows the animals involved to live a long and good life and is something that even many of us with a lot of experience don't undertake lightly.

Some further comments,

Ed
 
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