Most clays have an akaline based pH of around 9-10. This includes both sodium and calcium bentonites.I read allot more. and it make a little more scene now. just got to the substrate on my tank and just wandering whats the best for these tank . it make scents what ed said by being incomplete . what is the PH after done with your substrate ? It seems to only benefit every thing . the only thing I wonder if the PH is higher . thanks for the feed back
The clay even under heavy misting retains it shape well. Several people on this board have made drip walls and ponds out of clay and experienced little to no erosion. My oldest viv that contains a clay based substrate is about 18 months old now, and I do not see any signs of the granules clumping. Just make sure to dig around as little as possible. The clay will press together very easily when wet.Pumilio, just curious how the clay holds up over time. With heavy misting and high humidity, would it naturally clump and become impermiable over time? Also, how do you think the nutrient base would hold up over time? Would this have to be replaced over time, or do you think you could get several good years out of it?
Very informative, thanks for sharing.
Pat
There are several routes calcium from the clay can end up inside the frogThe clay even under heavy misting retains it shape well. Several people on this board have made drip walls and ponds out of clay and experienced little to no erosion. My oldest viv that contains a clay based substrate is about 18 months old now, and I do not see any signs of the granules clumping. Just make sure to dig around as little as possible. The clay will press together very easily when wet.
One method I use that helps prevent the shape of the clay from eroding is to add Turface into the wet bentonite/red art clay mix before baking. The clay will bond to the Turface during the baking, yet still is small enough to be pressed through a screen.
As for the nutrient base, the frogs obtain calcium when a particle is stuck to microfauna and then eaten by the frog, not by the microfauna eating the particle and then passing the nutrient onto the frog. It is not like an organic substrate where bacteria and micro-organisms break down the organic material. Plants can potentially absorbed most of the nutrients over time, but I imagine by the time a clay substrate would need to to be replaced you be ready to change the viv anyway.
Does this mean that invertebrates pass on nutrients that have been broken down within their own system or it is in their system not yet digested while they are eaten by the frog?There are several routes calcium from the clay can end up inside the frog
3) through particles that have been ingested by the prey species (clay can be ingested while feeding by invertebrates either accidentally or deliberately (as they need some level of calcium for their own metabolic needs)
Sorry I am little confused. Are you saying the nutrient base will be used up and will have to be replaced, or the addition of nutrients will sustain it over time except for localized areas? I thought microfauna helps to redistribute and free up nutrients.Clay also fosters a microbial enviroment that tends to lock up as much of the nutrients as possible and this along with the continued influx of nutrients (dusted feeders, leaf litter, new plants) makes this unlikely that you decide to break down the enclosure based on aesthetics before you have to break it down based on nutrients.
Actually yes to both depending on the species in question.. for example isopods and snails consume calcium containing substrates due to the increased calcium requirements for deposition into thier respective cuticle or shell while annelids (as an example) contain undigested calcium particulates in thier digestive tract. If you look in the bibliography for the Nutritional chapter in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery, there are some great references (One is a thesis I haven't been able to get ahold of yet) as well as some minor discussion in the text.Does this mean that invertebrates pass on nutrients that have been broken down within their own system or it is in their system not yet digested while they are eaten by the frog?
What I am saying that due to the lack of diversity in the microfauna in our enclosures, we may not see the same level of nutrient distribution or movement as is seen in the wild. This may mean that localized spots in the enclosure end up being nutrient deficient compared to other sections of the enclosure. This is probably going to take a long time to occur as clay based substrates are pretty robust.. so a person may want to take down a tank due to aesthetics as opposed to it actually becoming nutrient poor. Even if you do start to see signs of localized deficiency of nutrients top dressing the site should alleviate the issue.Sorry I am little confused. Are you saying the nutrient base will be used up and will have to be replaced, or the addition of nutrients will sustain it over time except for localized areas? I thought microfauna helps to redistribute and free up nutrients.
Here is a webpage that breaks down soil and microfauna interaction into an easy read. Its a student wiki article, not a journal, but it seems to be fairly accurate.
Soil environment and physical factors controlling microbial activity - MicrobeWiki
I would probably simply just move where I was dumping feeders into the tank...Ed, if you did decide that a top dressing was in order after a few years, would you put a small batch of new, complete clay mix over the top, or do you think that you could mix some Calcium Bentonite with a little Calcium Carbonate, both in their dry form. Sprinkle that over the top of your moist clay, and perhaps cut off the misting for a couple days to allow time for the Bentonite and calc. carb. to adhere to your old clay? I guess I'm thinking maybe 90 percent calcium bentonite and 10 percent calcium carbonite.
When current leaf litter layer is almost decomposed I sprinkle a small amount of dried clay mixture on top of it before adding a fresh layer of leaves. This helps to ensure that clay will come into contact with the frogs. Also any microfauna that comes to the surface has to pass through this layer. A simple glass salt shaker is a great tool to use when adding the dried clay.Ed, if you did decide that a top dressing was in order after a few years, would you put a small batch of new, complete clay mix over the top, or do you think that you could mix some Calcium Bentonite with a little Calcium Carbonate, both in their dry form. Sprinkle that over the top of your moist clay, and perhaps cut off the misting for a couple days to allow time for the Bentonite and calc. carb. to adhere to your old clay? I guess I'm thinking maybe 90 percent calcium bentonite and 10 percent calcium carbonite.
This is a problem I can well understand...Thanks Ed, I didnt realize there was a Google journal search engine. I lost my J-Stor password access a few months back, and have been only been able to access abstracts lately.
After all the technical information in the four pages...I have a really...really simple question: is the screen that you refer to what I call "hardware cloth" or is it screening material that would be used in a regular screen door..? This is a very informative thread, but I used Ed's method and it was very, very difficult to force the clay through those itsy-bitsy holes... thanks for your patience...
Hi guys, interesting thread here. Nice work on the recipe Doug. I look forward to seeing how it holds up over time. Here's an update on the recipes I've used:Pumilio, just curious how the clay holds up over time. With heavy misting and high humidity, would it naturally clump and become impermiable over time? Also, how do you think the nutrient base would hold up over time? Would this have to be replaced over time, or do you think you could get several good years out of it?
Very informative, thanks for sharing.
Pat