Dendroboard banner
261 - 280 of 307 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
154 Posts
Pumilo Thank you for all the info and advice you have shared over the yrs. People like you , and Ed and several others have helped me stay on track just by reading and searching. I have a question that I cant seem to resolve and feel confident in doing without making a mess. I want to set up a drip wall with no clay in it. The substrate will be turface with leaf litter topping it. I want to mix in clay pellets and or a layer of clay pellets sprinkled on top. I would not be putting any clay under the drips or running water. The turface will obviously be quite moisture saturated. Will the clay pellets resist liquefying . With you working with clay for several yrs now I figured you could give me advice to discourage the clay from disintegrating . I had planned on using your improved clay recipe. Thank You. Sorry to Hi jack.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
792 Posts
hey jonjoyce346, I found turface at the John deer lanscape supply 12.00 for 40lbs. just like everyone has been suggesting. But the only wrinkle is that here in Texas John deer landscape changed names and has new owners. Here its sold as a soil amendment because of the clay being so bad and poor drainage for a sports field.

What's the location of this John Deere place Darrell?


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
211 Posts
Fantastic thread. I've been studying this and trying to source the ingredients for about a week now.

I'm having trouble finding Turface locally, but I've come across a similar looking product at a distributor in my town. Has anyone experimented with Pro's Choice infield conditioner?

Pro's Choice Pro Red 50 lb. Bag | Sports Advantage

It would really simplify things for me if I could substitute this for Turface.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Jon
glassboxtropicals has turface for sale
http://www.glassboxtropicals.com/products/suppliesdecor/turface-fine-clay-pellets

edit: and he may also sell the clay substrate so you wouldnt need to source the raw materials. i sent him an email to see if he still sells it.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...-clay-substrate-calcium-bearing-material.html
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
glassboxtropicals has turface for sale
http://www.glassboxtropicals.com/products/suppliesdecor/turface-fine-clay-pellets

edit: and he may also sell the clay substrate so you wouldnt need to source the raw materials. i sent him an email to see if he still sells it.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...-clay-substrate-calcium-bearing-material.html
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

I've actually been looking forward to making my own clay substrate. My work is slow to nonexistent in the winter so I've decided to dedicate this year's off season to the hobby ;) I've got plenty of time on my hands and I'm going to need a LOT for the build I'm working on. I think it'll be fun to make up a batch or two.

I haven't had a chance to stop by the local pottery stores, but if I strike out there glassboxtropicals looks like a great option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
As has been mentioned in the past...mixing calcium carbonate or other materials into a substrate that is high in organic materials that release humic acids isn't going to provide the benefit you think it might... The reason is that the particles of calcium carbonate are going to end up coated in insoluble calcium humate salts (one of the reasons black water streams are very low in hardness....)... This is going to render the calcium unavailable for the most part... In clay substrates the calcium held by the clay until it is replaced by another positive ion which is why the calcium is (as I understand it) much more bioavailable.....

Some comments

Ed
I've seen this posted in several places. But looking at several white papers on this, it seems to be the opposite. That iron, calcium, mag, etc are actually more bio available at least when concerning plants. Can anyone explain the difference?

http://www.humates.com/pdf/ORGANICMATTERPettit.pdf
https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Humic Acid TR 2006.pdf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
Hard to believe this has sat dormant since 2013!

Any updates to clay substrate production and use? Surely we've covered some ground (pun intended) in the last 60 months.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #270 ·
Well...I think its a bit unpractical because it tent to disolve, in the long run, when you use a misting system,but Iam open for suggestions :D
Actually, I have feedback from many people who have it still going strong since being set up when this thread was started. That was in Feb of 2011, so this recipe has proven it can last for at least seven years, when used properly. Unfortunately, rampant overmisting is still practiced by too large a portion of this hobby. People still melt plants (overwatered), repeated kill begonias (overwatered with wet feet). People still push 90% plus humidity levels, then think they "fixed it", when they drop it to 85%, which should be the upper end of the spectrum.
I tried to do a pretty thorough job warning about the hazards of overwatering, and of wicking. It was also pointed out that vivs do not NEED to be as wet when using clay. Clay holds a lot of water, while still draining very well. A clay substrate, much like incorporating larger pieces of cork bark in your viv, suck up water, and release it slowly throughout the day, raising and regulating humidity. In my opinion, all froggers should all be running passive ventilation by now, which also helps keep your clay in good shape.

I'm truly sorry you didn't get the results you were hoping for, after all, I do this to help. I don't make a penny doing these threads. Perhaps you should re-consider user error? So many other are still running it, and swear it has been very helpful in stopping Pumilio Four Month Death Syndrome, also called, I believe, MOODS. If I remember right, MOODS stands for Mysterious Oophaga Offspring Death Syndrome. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that. Anyway, I've heard back from more than a few, that calcium bearing clay substrate, and a UV light, eliminated or reduced occurrences of Pumilio Four Month Death Syndrome.
Sorry if it feels like a lecture, but this clay has proven to save frogs. That right there makes it worth learning the ins and outs of using it properly.

If somebody does end up saturating and compacting your clay, scoop it out, press it through a screen, and re-use it. If you let it go so bad that it smells like rotton eggs when you scoop it out, throw it away.

OP, if you ever want to try this again, I'm usually available for questions. Ask away right here, or, I still do my best to return all private messages.

On the other hand, if you try and use clay in old school conditions, you are absolutely right. It would melt and be a very poor choice. In old school conditions and techniques, use an old school substrate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #272 · (Edited)
has anybody tried working shell grit into their substrate for a steady calcium supply for feeders and frogs?
It would be nice if it were that easy. Alas, if you want to reap the benefits of clay, only clay will suffice. A clay substrate allows calcium to be mobile, and able to transfer to your animals. Traditional substrates bind calcium and salts, selfishly keeping any calcium you add, unavailable to their frogs.

Shell grit, like oyster shell grit, for chickens? I'm all too familiar with shell grit, having used it for years in the making of Aragocrete, homemade coral reef rocks. The sharp edges tore the crap out of my hands when we molded that stuff. If you are talking oyster shell grit, not in my frogroom! One of the ways frogs get calcium from clay, is by accidental ingestion of tiny bits. Stirring that stuff was like stirring a pot of razor blades. Doesn't seem like something I want my frogs snacking on.

Oyster shell grit has also been considered for use in coral reef tank calcium reactors. It is not recommended as the phosphate levels are off the charts. It is also the slowest "melting" form of calcium tried for calcium reactors. An extremely slow to break down calcium is probably not the best choice.

Calcium bearing clay substrates, mine, or anyone's for that matter, all have one thing in common. The addition of calcium carbonate in a finely ground, easily released and easily absorbed by your frogs, powder.
Again, even if you use calcium carbonate, it's not helpful in a traditional, organic style, substrate. Dirt, soil, peat, sphagnum, coco, etc, all want to bind calcium. Clay, on the other hand, freely shares it's calcium.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
355 Posts
The calcium levels make it significantly different but if you read up you will get all of the data. I purchased mine from glass box tropicals as I didn’t have the time to create it myself. Hope that helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #275 ·
is it now possible to buy the clay pellets or mix anywhere, rather than make it? What is the difference between these and clay bio-balls? Or crushed clay pots or cat litter?
Clay bio balls are expanded with heat and pressure to make them light and porous. They are fully fired, so they cannot readily release minerals. Besides, they are not "hopped up" with calcium. They are rock hard. A clay substrate is NOT fired...not at all. It stays pliable, and able to release the calcium within.

Cat litter is sodium bentonite, the most unstable clay known. It expands and contracts more than any other clay. Even in the same brand, one bag may be fully fired, and the next may dissolve in water. Kitty litter has zero calcium added to it. Kitty litter is an excellent product for, well, cats to s&$t in.

Crushed clay pots would be fully fired, and unable to release the calcium that isn't in it anyway. Lots of great sharp edges for your poor froggies though.

There is but one way to get a proper calcium bearing clay substrate without making it yourself. Hire someone to make it for you.
Mike Rizzo, at Glass Box Tropicals, makes and sells clay substrate using my exact recipe, with my blessing. He can get you the good stuff with no shortcuts or replacements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,322 Posts
Thank you for explaining. It is unlikely I could get any substrate shipped to Canada I would think.
If you have schools with baseball fields then you have a product like turface in use... Basically what you want to ask for is infield conditioner. If you check around there is going to be someone carrying it for maintenance of baseball fields (and for the tracks around school football fields). You might have to buy 50 lbs of it at one shot but that is about what fits into a large plastic tote so it can be easily stored.

some comments

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,415 Posts
Discussion Starter · #279 ·
Well ..there is calcium bentonite..I guess that has it in abundance though.:rolleyes: So you mix a little in to your kitty stuff and you are golden.
No, you are not. Kitty litter is different batch to batch. It is either too hard, in which case your added calcium would not be mixed in with any consistency. It would most likely be rinsed through the substrate, down to the false bottom. There could also be pockets left behind where the concentration is much too high. Hypercalcemia could kill your frogs faster than the lack of calcium.

On the other hand, you may get a kitty litter that is not too hard. Of course then you have a substrate based on the most unstable form of clay known. It swells massively with water, and gets horribly soupy. In this state your pellets lose all form, and it becomes a lake of "quickmud".

Sodium bentonite "clay" is so crappy, that even pottery shops do not use it as a clay. People that work with clay, only use it as a glaze.
Sodium bentonite is so crappy, it is responsible for many millions of dollars of damage to residential basements and foundations. It absorbs so much water that it swells, crushing a thick, concrete, basement wall like a college student on spring break treats an empty beer can.
Sodium bentonite is so crappy, cats crap in it!

No matter what you do with it, sodium bentonite can not stand up to a redart based clay substrate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
116 Posts
I am trying to make my first calcium clay and im in Europe so cant find most stuff of the receipt at least same brand.
If anyone can help me would appreciate.

I can find red clay but dont know if its the same as redart powdered clay.

I can find both sodium and calcium bentonite clay but from cosmetic sellers, should this be ok ?

Can i use calcium carbonate used for reptiles ? Should be the same i guess.

Thanks =)
 
261 - 280 of 307 Posts
Top