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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The story as I received it is:

"...a notice was issued to the Wild Life Import/export Community yesterday by USFW closing down 8 countries for export import or re-export of all CITES listed animals. Here's the real stinger - not only was Panama listed but the pumilio shipment for Glenn Novotny rolled into Miami as the notice was issued. The pumilio as well as the auratus he imported from Panama are at this time being held by USFW and consideration of re-export back to Panama seems to be the route they are going to take. Here are the countries listed in the ban -Djibouti -Liberia -Rwanda -Equatorial Guinea- Mozambique -Sierra Leone -Guinea Bissau -all located in Africa- and Panama. If you want a copy of the notice you can get it from USFW at 703-358-1949. Glenn is in Miami now and still trying to get his shipment cleared but it doesn't look too good."

It turns out that the D. pumilio from Panama were not all actually farm raised.
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Tracy,

I'm just curious about your statement: "It turns out that the D. pumilio from Panama were not all actually farm raised." Is that an inference from the new USFW regulations that you just posted or an aside? If the former, I don't understand where you're making that inference from. USFW doesn't care about the difference between captive born, farm raised or wild caught, all they are concerned with is if the species in question is on the CITES list.
 

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Tracy,

So is it that they are not farm raised or that they have no proof of them being farm raised? Just wondering, if they are wild then that may explain some things.

Can't believe that they handle it this way though. Don't they have any vets around to know these animals will die! They need to go after the seller if they are wild, not kill the animals. Maybe I am jumping the gun, but wish I knew more about it all.

Tracy said:
The story as I received it is:

"...a notice was issued to the Wild Life Import/export Community yesterday by USFW closing down 8 countries for export import or re-export of all CITES listed animals. Here's the real stinger - not only was Panama listed but the pumilio shipment for Glenn Novotny rolled into Miami as the notice was issued. The pumilio as well as the auratus he imported from Panama are at this time being held by USFW and consideration of re-export back to Panama seems to be the route they are going to take. Here are the countries listed in the ban -Djibouti -Liberia -Rwanda -Equatorial Guinea- Mozambique -Sierra Leone -Guinea Bissau -all located in Africa- and Panama. If you want a copy of the notice you can get it from USFW at 703-358-1949. Glenn is in Miami now and still trying to get his shipment cleared but it doesn't look too good."

It turns out that the D. pumilio from Panama were not all actually farm raised.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Tim,

That was an aside on my part. I didn't qoute any USFWS regulations.

It is my understanding that Panama was put on this importation ban because these D. pumilio were misrepresented to the CITES people in Panama as farm raised when they were not.

But then I'm not in Florida dealing with the USFWS.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Kyle,

Again I'm not there dealing with the USFWS, but I doubt very seriously that they or anyone believes that the 1500 adult auratus that were shipped in previously ---many old and in bad shape--- from this same farm were actually farm raised.

At some point the USFWS has to put their foot down and stop it. I don't know what will happen. They might let Glenn take them and sell them. They might ship them back to Panama. And they might also confiscate them and give them some some reputable place like NAIB or the amphibian center in Detroit both of whom have successful records of dealing with Panama.

But anything like that is purely speculation on my part.
 

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I agree with any action that at least makes an attempt at keeping them alive. If they are not farm raised then that is a issue that may need delt with, but I hope not at the price of the animals lives.

Tracy said:
Kyle,

Again I'm not there dealing with the USFWS, but I doubt very seriously that they or anyone believes that the 1500 adult auratus that were shipped in ---many old and in bad shape--- from this same farm were actually farm raised.

At some point the USFWS has to put their foot down and stop it. I don't know what will happen. They might let Glenn take them and sell them. They might ship them back to Panama. And they might also confiscate them and give them some some reputable place like NAIB or the amphibian center in Detroit both of whom have successful records of dealing with Panama.

But anything like that is purely speculation on my part.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
** I am editing my post to avoid any misunderstanding**

Ok, another thing I am curious about, and I really hope this does not sound stupid. If the notice was issued as they arrived, why couldn't it be said that this was basically a done deal before the notice came out. In other words, I am sure that this was not an overnight thing. I would think that it takes quite a while to get the proper paperwork in order etc etc. so then all of the paperwork would have been dated prior to the notice.

Say for instance they change the speed limit to 45 on January 31, they can not go back to January 10 and arrest everyone that was driving 55.

I am sure that is a stupid analogy but hopefully it makes enough sense :oops:

I don't understand why this particular shipment, being that it was started much earlier than today when the notice came out, can not be "grandfathered" in and allow these beautiful, rare creatures to live.
Maybe I am so far off that it is not even funny. That is the way I would decide if I were the judge :arrow: A judge in a courtroom deciding this case, I would allow the shipment into the US because I would never want them to die

Just trying to understand :?
Rhonda
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Rhonda,

It appears that the USFWS notice was issued to stop this specific shipment. But that is just the appearence of it.

We will probably never know what the actual facts are behind this decision. But read Pete's note in the other thread and please focus on two things, ----the welfare of the frogs ----and letting the smoke clear before passing judgments.

After reading that thread, I am sorry I posted anything.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Oh please, please do not think that I am passing judgments. As I said I am curious and have questions, but never once did I pass judgment on anyone at all. If anything I was wondering why there could not be a loophole in this whole thing so that the frogs could stay and have a chance at survival.
If I showed anything negative at all it would be directed at the people that put out the notice to stop the shipment.
I am sorry if you misunderstood my post and I am sorry if I have read more into your response than was intended but I did not pass judgment. When I said "if I were the judge" I strictly meant a judge in a courtroom and would make the decision to let them stay, I am sorry I just don't see where I said anything bad about anyone.
Rhonda
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry to have upset you, Rhonda. I didn't really think you were trying to pass judgment on me or anybody.

This is just all a very awkward situation and I now after looking at the craziness going on the other thread, wish I had never said anything.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Tracy,

I want to thank you for posting this information. I heard rumors of this going south Thurdays night, and wanted to hear more. Don't ever be afriad to post anything. It seems like a lot of people just went crazy in the past few daya. This board is for sharing infomation and that is what you did.

As a friend I thank you,
 

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thanks

Tracy, please do not regret posting this at all. We need to be informed about this or it will continue to happen. Lets hope we can gather more details and try to do something about it.
 
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