[Rain_Frog]

Hey guys. I ordered some of these powdered veggies from barry Farms.

The carrot powder sticks very well to fruit flies, but even better to crickets. As long as you keep the bag sealed, it will not clump. I have noticed any unused supplement in a dish that I want to reuse will clump up and will not work anymore.

I cannot get the tomato powder to stick at all.
The beet powder is the finest, just like normal supplement, but I do not know the safety of this nor the benefit for coloring up my tricolors.

All of my frogs seem to like the carrot powder sprinkled on. Guess it adds a bit more flavor to things. :lol:

 

[Scott]

I am guessing that you can take any "clumped up" powder and possibly add it to your springtail cultures.

I'm sure they'd take would eat it and possibly uptake some of the characteristics you're looking for.

Better than wasting it anyhow.

Do you have a URL for Barry Farms (I haven't tried but I'd rather get it straight from you anyhow)?

s

 

[Ed]

With the addition of the carrot you are basically supplying more betacarotene to the frogs and this will probably not significantly enhance the color of the frogs as this is the most commonly used carotenoid in vitamin/mineral supplements and can be fat stored.

To date it has not been shown that the frogs wil use lycopene and other similar pigments as a color enhancement so the value in enhancing red pigments is unknown. Red in amphibians is typically either based solely on a pterin pigment or carotenoids or both. With the carotenoids in other amphibians that store red pigments, the red is typically not from a carotenoid found in higher plants (either synthesized from similar carotenoids or bioaccumulated from specific algae) but from a carotenoid found in arthropods such as some daphnia and gammarus (also the red pigment in salmon) (may in the long run simply be a factor of intensity of the red as there are reports of intensification of red via paprika).
I believe Tracy Hicks uses beet powder for his frogs but you would have to ask him specifically how much he uses and how.
Some carotenoids such as betacarotene are relatively harmless but not all carotenoids can be lumped into this category as some that are commercially available are damaging to the liver if fed in excess.

Just some comments

Ed

 

[Rain_Frog]

If ThatFish Place didn't back order my cyclopeeze, that would be my solution then....

 

[Ryan]

I was led to beleive Beta Carotene(sp) was not what is harmful if overdosed, but rather vitamin A.

Ryan

 

[Rain_Frog]

the only disagreement I would have is that firebellied toad breeders are said to correct the problem of a yellow belly with beta carotene to make it turn orange.

 

[Rain_Frog]

Sorry. Forgot to respond to this sooner:

http://www.barryfarm.com

There are other places too. Just do a search at google for carrot powder.

For cyclopeeze, just go to that fish place (http://www.thatpetplace.com) and search on Cyclopeeze.

Ed....

Do you have any information where the "other carotenoids" would be found? If they are from arthopods, that makes me think of marine algae like what Cyclopeeze stores. I wouldn't think carotenoids from marine types of algae, would be found on where tricolor live naturally, but then again, there could be another source of this carotenoid somewhere else.

I did plan on using Cyclopeeze. (Ed Martin has used it) I would feed it to the crickets first or springtails, and then to the frogs.

 

[Ed]

Betacarotene is really pretty safe even in excess unlike vitamin A (retinol).

The literature I had in hand at that time did not give a specific breakdown of other potential carotenoids that could be used as a precursor to astaxanthin in arthropods; but they are listed as coming from aquatic microorganisms (implying that they may not necessarily originate in algaes). In addition the actual color of astaxanthin can be significantly changed by the protien(s) to which it is bound so digestion can potentially liberate the red color for uptake and storage.

With respect to betacarotene fed Bombina, the ones that I have seen had an intensification of the yellow-orange color but did not attain the deep red-orange color seen in wild caught imports. As there are potentially other carotenoids that are red (such as lycopene and those found in beets), these may be more effective in inducing a red color but astaxanthin is known to induce a red color in aquatic organisms that store carotenoids. (Cynops ventral patterns when fed betacarotene become more yellow as opposed to red in my experience).

In some amphibians and anurans the red color is from a group of pigments known as pterins that cannot be increased through the feeding of carotenoids just as blue is from the reflection of the blue wavelength of light from the reflecting iridiopores (for a good review of amphibian skin pigments see volume 1 of Amphibian Biology).

If I am unclear it may be due to it having been a really long day and I am very tired.

Ed

 

[Rain_Frog]

no. It makes more sense now.

But I'm not so sure about beets containing anything. From reading health websites, no information has been mentioned about caratenoids found in beets. Perhaps they are false? I know though that carrots contain several other caratenoids, but, like you said, void of anthaxanthin...

However, my idea now is to get my Cyclopeeze and feed it to my tricolors and firebellied toads, by means of gutloaded crickets.

And, I'd like to add, but i think UV has definitely had an effect on the "richness" in color on my tricolor. My boldest male gaurded a clutch of eggs for the longest time very close to the UV lamp I had. He has turned out to be deeper in color, not necessarily "redder," but much darker than my shy female who lives on the shadowy forest floor (my tank is heavily planted).

So, perhaps a combo of UV and anthaxanthin will do the job and get my frogs to be deep red... I hope.

 

[Rain_Frog]

Be honest with you, i don't know why I bought beet powder now. But perhaps, it still could be useful, and I was misinformed on the net about beets (AFTER I bought the stuff!)

 

[bbrock]

Thought I might jump in here. Ben Green posted this link on a similar thread a few months ago: http://food.naturalhealthperspective.com/carotenes.html. I found it pretty helpful for making my own carotenoid concoction. I made a powder using at least one major source of each of the carotenoids listed. Then on Ed K's suggestion, I added Cyclopeze to the mix. All of this is powdered in a blender and then ground fine in a mortar and pestel. To this powder I added enough calcium powder as an anit-clumping agent and to make it stick. I store it in an air tight container with a silica gel pillow. I dust this on ff as a supplement and have also added it to ff and waxworm media. I've been feeding this to cb blue jeans pumilio and the results have been very encouraging. Not only have the youngest froglets held their color much better than any in the past, but even the dull colored cb adults have regained much of the color they had lost.

As for whether the sources of various carotenoids would be found in PDF habitat. I don't give that too much thought. The wet tropics are so diverse with plant life that it is very likely that all of the various carotenoids we have discussed are found there in some form or at least some very chemically similar compound is found there.

Finally, kidney and liver are reported to be foods high in pterins. I have considered drying and powdering some but have not done it yet.

 

[Ed]

Sorry I was tired and got the beet stuff mixed up in my head. Red beets are high in flavenoids but should also be high in carotenoids as yellow beets have good levels of betacarotene and the difference between the two is that red beets basically produce more flavenoids. It is hard to get data on the roots as the greens are a good source of betacarotene and most items address the use of the greens.

UVB can have an increase in color but it can also reduce color as it can stimulate the increased production of melanin and melanophores in the frogs which would reduce the bright color. We may not be reaching the threshold to stimulate melanin production in the enclosures as the UV out put is pretty low when compared to the sun.


Ed

 

[Rain_Frog]

I happen to like the darker, burgandy color hehe. :wink:

I just want my backordered Cyclopeeze!

Brent:

How well does the Cyclopeeze stick alone? I have tried paprika multiple times, and it didn't do crap, and that is why I bought the carrot, beet, and tomato powder. The carrot powder sticks well, but the beat powder is even finer.

 

[sports_doc]

color enhancement

Now why couldn't we just take a jar of color enhancing fish food, put it in a food processor, powder it up and use that?
My experience with fish is that you couldn't use this stuff more than 1-2 days a week .....they got soooo dark in color.

Thoughts?

Shawn

 

[Rain_Frog]

First of all, i don't have a decent food processor. Second, I have thought about trying that, at least feed it to my pinhead colony.

Particularly, the marine types because they are loaded with asthaxanthin from marine algae and plankton.

But, I really want to try and keep the "filler junk" down to a minimum, but then again, paprika, carrot, beet, etc. isn't what a typical frog would consume anyway.

However, that is a viable alternative to feeding gutloaded crickets and then feeding them out to the frogs.

However, I still did order some "fish food." Cyclop-eeze, but is backordered by that fish place until July 7.

 

[Ed]

If you are going to use color enhancing fish food look for ones that are certified as hormone free. In a lot of the fish, enhanced color is linked to breeding condition so it is possible that some of the color enhancing foods contain testosterone or one of its analogs.

Ed

 

[Rain_Frog]

Ed. Petco also sells frozen foods for marine fish. One I found contains already asthaxanthin. But it appears too stinky (its wet, not dried and turn into flakes like cyclopeeze) so I haven't bought any to feed to crickets.

How did you guys powder the cyclopeeze before feeding out? I know its pure crustacean, but normal fishfood doesn't stick well to flies. (I tried to powder it once). I still have no idea how you guys got paprika to stick, because it never will in my experience.

Ed. What about feeding liverwurst to crickets? They eat just about anything. It could be a feasible way to add pterins...

 

[bbrock]

I ordered the flake cyclop-eze but what I got just looked like freeze dried crustaceans. In raw form it doesn't stick well at all. It is both too clumpy and too oily. I got a mortar and pestel and ground up the entire cannister into a fine powder which still doesn't stick to ff very well but mixing it with calcium powder dries it out and allows it to stick. I now dust with this mix in place of my calcium dustings.

There are a few reasons not to just use color enhancing flakes as a powder for frogs. The "filler factor" has already been mentioned but also, not all color enhancers are the same. Many of the fish flakes just add beta carotene to the formula which we can easilty get by dusting with paprika. Some flakes use canthoxanthin which is a powerful form of vitamin A that can cause liver damage if used too much. So the idea behind these crazy concoctions is to create a supplement with the full range of carotenoids that are safe for the frogs (no vitamin A activity). So far astaxanthin really looks like the best single ingredient but I can't say how much the results I'm seeing are from the astaxanthin or from just having a cocktail of pigment binding compounds available for the frogs. All I can say is that these are the best results in getting cb blue jeans to have wild caught color I've seen yet and the supplements are mostly derived from fresh fruits and vegetables so probably a pretty good overall dietary supplement as well.

 

[Ed]

Off the top of my head. while those organs can contain pterins, this does not mean that the pterins contained in those organs can be used for pigments (as pterin pigments are synthesized as opposed to simply stored (otherwise the red in the eyes of ffs could be used). However these meats do have high levels of purines which are precursors to pterins and may be able to increase pterin levels in amphibians. This is speculative based on the ability to modify colors in axolotls by feeding certain pigment precursors.

I was able to get a container of flake cyclopeeze at one of the local lfs and it appears to powder well and should stick well if mixed with a supplement.

Ed

 

[bbrock]

Off the top of my head. while those organs can contain pterins, this does not mean that the pterins contained in those organs can be used for pigments (as pterin pigments are synthesized as opposed to simply stored (otherwise the red in the eyes of ffs could be used). However these meats do have high levels of purines which are precursors to pterins and may be able to increase pterin levels in amphibians. This is speculative based on the ability to modify colors in axolotls by feeding certain pigment precursors.

I was able to get a container of flake cyclopeeze at one of the local lfs and it appears to powder well and should stick well if mixed with a supplement.

Ed

Yup, my memory was hazy and I think I mispoke about kidney and liver being high in pterins. I believe they are just high in purines. Of course I wouldn't know any of this if it weren't for Ed telling me about the purine-pterin-pigment connection before.