[Harmenjan]

So, i have 2 O Pumillio bastimentos rfbs since about 2 weeks. 4 months and 5 months old. The 4 month is a male and already calling. The 5 month is hopefully a female and silent and quit a bit larger as the male.

I have seen the bigger frog eat smal FF, but i have not seen the smalle male, inhave only seen him eat springtales

Now, a couple of days ago i saw the small walking and moving a bit strange and with spams like movements. First i did not notice it, just registered somewhere in my mind. I also notice he now slept on the floor and did not climb up into a bromeliad for the night. The other moved very direct and controlled.

But when i caught on, i consulted a few pfd friends and decided to out it in a small container with only a few dusted ff (and leaves and a brom pup)

Putting the dusted flies in, i also spilled a bit of Ca dust in the leaves. Also sprayed with water with a Ca/Mg/vitamine added. Which saved him, i do not know, but the spilled Ca powder could have been absorbed through his skin i think.

Now, this all got me thinking: how do these frogs get there Ca in the wild? There are no dusted insects around and i do not think that the wild insects they eat have a so much higher Ca content as our FF/amphids and Springtales we feed.

Are they getting it from contact with the (clay?) ground?

I do have a small cup with clay in every tank, but in (unlike the Ph bicolor) i have not seen the rfbs use it.

Other question, is there a way to raise the Ca content of springtales? Dusting them is impossible.

Isopods are too big.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

i do not think that the wild insects they eat have a so much higher Ca content as our FF/amphids and Springtales we feed.

Why do you not think that?

Wild insects eat whatever they want; captive FFs eat mashed potatoes, mostly.

There are some threads in the archives regarding dusting springs; it is possible. A current idea is to raise springs on calcium rich clay (and/or have clay substrate in the viv) and provide UVB for D3.

Also, it seems to me impossible that a calling male of any species would have grown and be living on only springtails. Very likely, he's eating FFs.

 

[Philsuma]

Wild prey insects of all types have a huge calcium content transferred directly to the dart frog. We can never hope to replicate the diversity of vitamins and nutrients AND calcium they get in the wild, That is why it is imperative that we use fresh, quality superfine supplements as dusted fruit flies at EVERY feeding. Failure to supplement correctly is my guess at the cause of your problems as described above.

 

[Harmenjan]

Why do you not think that?

Wild insects eat whatever they want; captive FFs eat mashed potatoes, mostly.

There are some threads in the archives regarding dusting springs; it is possible. A current idea is to raise springs on calcium rich clay (and/or have clay substrate in the viv) and provide UVB for D3.

Also, it seems to me impossible that a calling male of any species would have grown and be living on only springtails. Very likely, he's eating FFs.

No science behind that, just my feeling. So if we would add Ca to the ff culture they would contain moer Ca?

That raising on Ca rich clayni will try, very interesting

 

[Philsuma]

Fruit flies must be the staple in the hobby as they are the best possible vehicle to transfer the superfine powdered supplements to the frogs and the easiest to culture. All other feeders - bean beetles, aphids, isopods and springtails are really never dusted and as such, never a staple feeder insect.

 

[Harmenjan]

[/QUOTE]
Also, it seems to me impossible that a calling male of any species would have grown and be living on only springtails. Very likely, he's eating FFs.
[/QUOTE]

I agree, but i am also surprised that he is 3/4 the size of the other, and only 4 months old and calling...

 

[Harmenjan]

Fruit flies must be the staple in the hobby as they are the best possible vehicle to transfer the superfine powdered supplements to the frogs and the easiest to culture. All other feeders - bean beetles, aphids, isopods and springtails are really never dusted and as such, never a staple feeder insect.

Yes, you could be right, but i dusted the flies every time, but i have only had them for 2 weeks. So either the problem has been created at the previous owner (and i do not believe that as he is also super precise) or it is the combination of:

-Stress of transport
-growing fast as he is only 4 months als still small
-an amount of springtales in the viv (had some mold before the frog arrived and battles that with springtales, but took most of them out before the frogs arrived)
-getting to find his way around the viv and failing to eat enough of the supplied ff with dusting and eating more or only springtales.

As said i have never seen him eat FF and only ST

And i WILL always on every feeding add repashy calcium plus, once a month the Variant with Vit A.

 

[Kmc]

An abreviate of process to not be misunderstood as promotional of any light methodology is that in the wild dermal contact of sunlight begins a mechanism of pathway and transport - d3 converted to calcitrol in the blood levels of animals. This exploits calcium componenents of food. Although this process is available metabolically in all animals, its pinacled in tissue and bone formative 'use' in some, notably lizards and chelonians.

 

[Kmc]

Most insect bodies have an abundance of phosphorus, not calcium. Vit D is required to assimilate calcium to healthy chordate bone tissue.

 

[Louis]

Obviously feeding wild collected insects carries it's own inherent risks but in the past I have been amazed by how quickly frogs and toads that are suffering badly from even quite severe malnutrition can be brought back from the brink simply by feeding wild insects. I cannot doubt for a second the claims made about comparative nutrient values between wild 'free range' insects and factory farmed feeders.
I came into posession of a baby toad that was severely underweight, had bandy limbs, there was something wrong with it's eyes that meant they always appeared half closed, and it had become clumsy and malcoordinated at walking and striking prey. It was struggling to catch even abundant prey with its tongue and only maybe 1/15 strikes was successful.
It was almost pointless offering dusted springtails as it was so inefficient at catching them that the vitamins were long gone by the time it did. In the end I resorted to regularly adding compost from a heap that was heaving with gnats, mites, etc. and within two weeks it had almost fully recovered - now you wouldn't at a glance be able to differentiate it from any other healthy toad.
Also consider the diversity of different tiny arthropod species in even a tiny patch of wild soil or leaf litter, and the quite wide range of different nutritional values between the few mass produced feeder species.
I always make an effort to provide my geckos with at least some wild caught prey these days.

 

[Johanovich]

Now, this all got me thinking: how do these frogs get there Ca in the wild? There are no dusted insects around and i do not think that the wild insects they eat have a so much higher Ca content as our FF/amphids and Springtales we feed.

Are they getting it from contact with the (clay?) ground?

I do have a small cup with clay in every tank, but in (unlike the Ph bicolor) i have not seen the rfbs use it.

Other question, is there a way to raise the Ca content of springtales? Dusting them is impossible.

Isopods are too big.

In the wild, these frogs forage on forest soil in between leaf litter. Most of the arthropods they encounter are not Diptera like fruit flies. They eat a whole spectrum of species of mites, springtails, isopods, small beetles, millipedes, insect larvae, ants and termites. A lot of these do have a pretty high calcium content in their tissues and/or gut. The main reason we use the feeders we do, is because they are easy to breed. The fact that they are not ideal is mostly compensated by our vitamin powders.

Obviously feeding wild collected insects carries it's own inherent risks but in the past I have been amazed by how quickly frogs and toads that are suffering badly from even quite severe malnutrition can be brought back from the brink simply by feeding wild insects. I cannot doubt for a second the claims made about comparative nutrient values between wild 'free range' insects and factory farmed feeders.
I came into posession of a baby toad that was severely underweight, had bandy limbs, there was something wrong with it's eyes that meant they always appeared half closed, and it had become clumsy and malcoordinated at walking and striking prey. It was struggling to catch even abundant prey with its tongue and only maybe 1/15 strikes was successful.
It was almost pointless offering dusted springtails as it was so inefficient at catching them that the vitamins were long gone by the time it did. In the end I resorted to regularly adding compost from a heap that was heaving with gnats, mites, etc. and within two weeks it had almost fully recovered - now you wouldn't at a glance be able to differentiate it from any other healthy toad.
Also consider the diversity of different tiny arthropod species in even a tiny patch of wild soil or leaf litter, and the quite wide range of different nutritional values between the few mass produced feeder species.
I always make an effort to provide my geckos with at least some wild caught prey these days.

Couldn't agree more, I have a few pesticide free spots where I regularly catch meadow plankton during spring, summer and autumn. The diversity you catch is astounding from just a few square meters of meadow. Just the amount of small feeder critters (< 1.5mm such as springtails, aphids, mites, thrips, bug nymphs, beetle larvae) is amazing.

Not to mention that some species actually eat better when they are offered a diverse diet instead of just 2 or 3 feeder species. I noticed that my frogs tend to hunt much more enthusiastically when offered meadow plankton. And my Mantella baroni, a species which is known for sometimes being difficult to "fatten up", pretty much get near obese in just a few weeks when fed meadow plankton several times a week.

 

[Kmc]

Using a risk-to-benefit is a tenet in most disciplines. Including, as a litmus of consequences, human medicine and military strategy.

I live in a heavily populated area. These posts of J a d L re ignite self interrogation to what i would consider in other circumstances.

A personal investment in my journey has been neural enrichment eg quality of life. As per the Spark of prey cues and feeding dispatch and experience.

The only experiences are animals will ever have, are those we deign to give them.

 

[Harmenjan]

Thanks all for your answers! I have had bad experiences with getting a miniature spider in our tanks from meadow plankton as we call it.

 

[Kmc]

Yeah nature is a wiley moppet.

But, its not like the closed congestion of cultured food is paragon of biological wellness and hygiene, either.

Some places dont even clean their cricket bins of the dead and fetid. They have no opportunity to self groom without continual re application and ingestion of filth.

 

[Harmenjan]

Using a risk-to-benefit is a tenet in most disciplines. Including, as a litmus of consequences, human medicine and military strategy.

I live in a heavily populated area. These posts of J a d L re ignite self interrogation to what i would consider in other circumstances.

A personal investment in my journey has been neural enrichment eg quality of life. As per the Spark of prey cues and feeding dispatch and experience.

The only experiences are animals will ever have, are those we deign to give them.

Dear KMC, sorry, my bad, but could you rephrase that is words that I as a probably less educated and not native English speaker (Dutch of origin) can understand??

 

[Kmc]

Sometimes a person will weigh the dangers of a thing, and compare its value of good and decide which way to go, accepting the danger that it may have because you have decided the good is worth it, with an informed mind.

 

[Kmc]

Harmenjan, my father taught us to always show good courtesy to someone to whom english is not native tongue or has an accent because it is a sure fact that such a person speaks at least one more language than we do.

 

[Harmenjan]

Sometimes a person will weigh the dangers of a thing, and compare its value of good and decide which way to go, accepting the danger that it may have because you have decided the good is worth it, with an informed mind.

Thank you. I agree

 

[Harmenjan]

Harmenjan, my father taught us to always show good courtesy to someone to whom english is not native tongue or has an accent because it is a sure fact that such a person speaks at least one more language than we do.

He taught you well! Thanks for your consideration.