[Apoplast]

So, I have contracted a fairly pernicious, small scale insect that seems to be exclusively interest in my Neo broms. It doesn't spread all that quickly, but it clips along and even at low density is clearly damaging to the plants.

Obviously, I need to do something about this pest. My question is whether it would be better to pull the broms from the tank and treat them, while leaving the frogs in their enclosure, or to set up a new enclosure with the frogs and new, thoroughly cleaned plants, then go and deal with removing and descaling the broms. I have a new enclosure that I could set up with either the intent of this being a new permanent home, or a temporary shelter while their enclosure is cleaned.

Thoughts?

 

[Harpspiel]

You will never get rid of them in your current tank, with the frogs in there. You could move the frogs to the new tank, then treat every plant (not just broms) in the old tank with a systemic, and that might knock them out. But systemics linger for a long time, so you would need to leave those plants in place for months and potentially change out all the soil before introducing any herp into the old tank. Bleach treating, soapy water, etc. will not eliminate them from your broms.

 

[Apoplast]

Well, not being content with the options that were available, I decided to try going my own way to correct the Neo scale issue. I decided I wanted to keep the plants and frogs in the viv, and I really didn't want to introduce any chemicals what would be a threat to the frogs.

What to do? Well, normally under these circumstances my thoughts would go to biocontrol. Works well for mealybugs, thrips, spidermites, aphids, and whitefly (excepting perhaps the Kew type). Sadly, there are no effective biocontrols available here for scale.

After much self-bemoaning my situation, I sat around my critter space to ponder what my options might be. Then it hit me! Garlic-glass snails (genus: Oxychilus). I still had a small population of these tiny snails in a container with some carnivorous plants I keep. At least, I hoped so!

These snails eat some plant matter, dead and alive, but not in great quantity. They also eat arthropods when available, and seem to persist on collembola eggs and the dead adults in my setup. It took me a few days to find them, and there were not many left. But I introduced them to the viv with the Neo scale. Nothing. But then, I expected nothing to happen quickly. We are talking about snails here!

I am happy to report that after 2 months, their population has increased to where I can semi-reliably find them if I put in the effort. There seems to be no change in the behavior of the frogs. But what about the scale. The most infected plant was a clump of N. smithii. The worst hit rosettes are on their way out, but the ones that started with fewer scale insects look free form them, and are starting to put out new roots (notably a correlation with this pest is that the broms stop growing new roots when they get even a mild case).

So far, I would rate this a cautiously optimistic success. The real factor will come once my frogs begin laying eggs (that I have not succeeded with yet). I will need to watch them closely to assess if the snails deem the eggs a worthy meal. If so, I may yet have to break the tank down. But for not, the snails seem like a decent addition.

 

[solidsnake]

I hope that works out for you. It sounds like such a beating. Ughhh

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Neat. Looking forward to updates.

 

[TrumantheOwl]

I’ve seen a fairly negative general opinion about snails in the viv. Most seem to regard them as pests. I’m curious as to if they become an eventual issue.

I generally pull and crush any snails I find in my vivariums.


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[Apoplast]

I hope that works out for you. It sounds like such a beating. Ughhh

Thanks! It's not so bad. It's all part of why makes hobbies like this interesting to me. You never stop learning and the opportunities for experimentation are nearly endless. Sure, it's frustrating at times. Until I slow down and remember why I love it all in the first place.

I’ve seen a fairly negative general opinion about snails in the viv. Most seem to regard them as pests. I’m curious as to if they become an eventual issue.

I generally pull and crush any snails I find in my vivariums.

I can understand why you'd want to crush any hitchhiker snails you find on new plants. There is a high likelihood they will eat plants. That said, I remember back in the 90's killing isopods that hitchhiked in on plants to my vivs. And I'd still do that with those species today. They were large, fast, omnivores. They might represent a threat to the frogs themselves, and much more so to any eggs or froglets.

But, my the same measure that isopods are a large and diverse group with species that could be harmful in a viv all the way to those that have become considered essential to a thriving, naturalistic setup, so too are snails. I'm greater then the standard confidence level of the generic identity. The species is more like 40% because mine are smaller as adults than they key out, but the entire clade they are in seems low risk, and possibly high reward. So, for now I'm feeling cautiously optimistic about the eventual success of this endeavor. Famous last words? Perhaps. But the first person to introduce dwarf white isopods also took a risk. And in that spirit, experiment I shall!

 

[Apoplast]

At this stage I can safely say the snails have been preying on the scale and not bothering the frogs. I have seen numerous occasions where the snails were happily working on the insects, which I enjoyed watching. They also seem to like the, what I assume are slime molds, or other various slimy areas getting too much light where the mosses have yet to cover. Currently, the in first tank I put these little guys in, the snails seem to have potentially eliminated the scale off the broms. Or at least brought their numbers below easy detection limits through quite casual observation. All in all, I think this seems a success to this point. I'm planning on getting a species of frog that leaves their eggs quite exposed in hopes of determining if these snails pose any threat to dart eggs. But if that comes out well, I think I'll be adding these little guys to the CUC for all my future vivs. This is a fun little experiment, and it's been nice to think about the diversity we might be able to add to our systems!

 

[Harpspiel]

At this stage I can safely say the snails have been preying on the scale and not bothering the frogs. I have seen numerous occasions where the snails were happily working on the insects, which I enjoyed watching. They also seem to like the, what I assume are slime molds, or other various slimy areas getting too much light where the mosses have yet to cover. Currently, the in first tank I put these little guys in, the snails seem to have potentially eliminated the scale off the broms. Or at least brought their numbers below easy detection limits through quite casual observation. All in all, I think this seems a success to this point. I'm planning on getting a species of frog that leaves their eggs quite exposed in hopes of determining if these snails pose any threat to dart eggs. But if that comes out well, I think I'll be adding these little guys to the CUC for all my future vivs. This is a fun little experiment, and it's been nice to think about the diversity we might be able to add to our systems!

That’s great, I’m going to need to try some of those in my paludarium, where scale has killed a few orchids and sensitive broms.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

Is this the snail?

https://www.cabidigitallibrary.org/doi/10.1079/cabicompendium.119076

 

[Apoplast]

Is this the snail?

I think so, but it doesn't key out perfectly to that species (slight difference in whirl width, though closer to that species than the near relatives). I know this species is established in California, and it came in, years ago now, on plants from there, so I suspect this is the proper ID. Perhaps the introduced population is ever so slightly different than the source population used to create the key. 🤷‍♂️