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Discussion Starter #1
If I'm being an idiot please be kind. I'm new to the hobby and just in the researching phase. Would it be okay to put a betta in the water feature of my viv if I choose to incorporate one? (If I do I know, access to the pump, tall false bottom so as not to end up with a swamp, etc.) I just wasn't sure to reason for or against doing so. Thanks for any words of wisdom anyone may happen to have.
 

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hey matt , the biggest concern i see is tank temp also would this be seperate to a false bottom hate to have the fishy get lostunder the false bottom ... If you decide to make a build thread let me know interested to see how that works .. is this what your planning "A paludarium is a type of vivarium that incorporates both terrestrial and aquatic elements. Paludaria (or paludariums) usually consist of an enclosed container in which organisms specific to the biome being simulated are kept. They may be maintained for purely aesthetic reasons or for scientific or horticultural purposes. The word 'paludarium' comes from the Latin word 'paludal' meaning marshes or swamps and '-arium' which means an enclosed container." ... also where ya from ?
 

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The waterfeature / pond of any kind with fish should be large enough, means you'll have to decrease land part. The ground part is more essential for frogs, even arboreal ones, thus you will need a really big build.
It's better to start with lesser vivs to learn & found out what you can do by your own mistakes. After successful running of a, let's say, 30g viv you'll find yourself inspired for new species & new volums.
I mean try to stick only on frogs with your first build, read, learn, biuld you first viv, and than you can be prepaired for more complicated & larger enclosures.
 

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I understand where you're coming from, though there is no way I'm doing stick only. The biggest appeal to me is creating a living breathing ecosystem. I've been doing my research and I've done planted aquariums big and small (aquatic if that wasnt obvious) and still have a reef w drilled sump and fuge.

I'm not set on the betta idea, just throwing it around. As it stands he's in a bowl and it'd be nice to give him a little more room. If i decide to do a water feature I'm going to do a deep false bottom, drill the bottom, and set up a bulkhead with a valved tube so i can easily perform water changes. Plus with it having a deeper false bottom with raised eggcrate i can allow for more total water volume which should make it easier to keep clean. Again though, thanks for the advice. I'm not set on the betta idea but I'm fairly certain ill set up a water feature. I've been reading the top ten beginner mistakes and i know to set it up with easy pump access. The drilled draingives me a way to fix mistakes and I'm considering getting another hole drilled at the very top of my false bottom with a tube running to a res so i have a fail safe against flooding my tank. I'm trying to be smart about my first viv and learn from mother mistake.

Wow. I talk to much. Sorry for the book.
 

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my biggest failure was have he pump for water circulation / waterfall to be on the bottom of everything they clog mega easy and would be better creating some way to do this without the pump / or whatever you use under everything = sump idea sounds like perfect bliss for this
 

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IMO, the betta wouldnt have much more room than the bowl... for example, say the pond area is approximately 8''x4''X4''deep...thats only 0.5 gallons...its most likely less than the bowl... plus who knows, the betta could become aggressive and attack anything that enters the water... IMO, things like ghost shrimp, tetras, and minnows, would work much better...
 

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thats with out how big the tank is going to be ? What if its a 45-55 gallon even half for frogs and half for fish would be good alot of people dont put thier frog/s in anything bigger then a 20-30 gallon . I think with a big enough tank a water feature would be viable and welcoming . hurry up and build the thing lol.:) btw this guy has the know how .. he deals with everything and hopefully with my help now darts will be added to his list !
 

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I second the thought that the water feature may not provide more space than the bowl, with the added bit of being much harder to clean. There are a lot of misconceptions about bettas that are very popular...the idea betta enclosure is at least 5 gallons, and heated to the low-mid 80's. Mind you that bettas can reach the 3" mark, not including the tail, when kept properly.

Tetras, etc. are also unsuitable for water volumes of much less than 10 gallons, and they are generally active schooling fish that should be kept in numbers with room to move around.

The only fish out there that I can think of that actively prefers small, stagnant bodies of water is the mangrove killifish, Kryptolebias marmoratus. Very cool little fish. Rather difficult to find for sale, though.

All in all, it comes down to the size of the tank you're using, the space you're willing to allocate for the fish, and the type of heating/filtration you're making available to the fish.
 

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It can somewhat easyly be done.
If you use a pump, be sure that it doesn't make much if at all any current, betta REALLY don't like moving water.
I don't think a betta would ever attack a frog... it is somewhat of a myth that they are agressive. In fact, they will atk anything that looks like a male betta, and guess what? golden fish really looks like male betta to them, hence the popular belief that betta are agressive. If put with MANY other types of fish that don't look like them, they won't ever do anything mean.
I personally don't like betta much for pallu tho, because betta require stagnant water and pallu with stagnant water are not very nice...
guppies, chinese neons, danios and specially killifishes are probably a much better choice of fish for pallus

btw, i've kept a betta in around 200-300ml of water for well over a year!
another betta is being picky and will ONLY have FF for food ;)
 

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btw, i've kept a betta in around 200-300ml of water for well over a year!
another betta is being picky and will ONLY have FF for food ;)

I had to use an online converter for this, but isn't 200ml only just over 0.05 gallons?? This is disgusting, and should NOT be encouraged. I have seen bettas live over 8 years when kept in reasonable sized tanks with filters and heaters.
 

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wow our first fish hate crime :( .... bettas in those small globes or tanks isnt right... im thinking even if the make a high false bottom with a nice water feature especialy in the 45 -55 long that would be better then what most fish deal with ..... you go in pet stores and see betas in a cup of water and they look content ... anything would be better then that .
 

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i am not encouraging this... I am just saying bettas dont need all what your saying
do you know where and how they live in the nature?
these guys are tough, and ask anyone who s been into freshwater aquariums, filters are overated... nothing beats a well establish good bacteria flora
i still think they're not the best for palu
 

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i am not encouraging this... I am just saying bettas dont need all what your saying
do you know where and how they live in the nature?
these guys are tough, and ask anyone who s been into freshwater aquariums, filters are overated... nothing beats a well establish good bacteria flora
i still think they're not the best for palu
Yes, actually I do. Do you know where they live in nature? Swamps and rice paddies..not puddles, not fist-sized holes of water. Their habitats are shallow, but expansive.

The mangrove killifish, by comparison, prefers water-filled crab burrows, or even out of the water altogether. A perfect fish for tiny bodies of water ;)
 

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you didn't mention how big the water area will be... i wouldn't put a betta in anything less than 5 gallons of water. just because they "can" live in a cup, doesn't mean they "should" live in a cup. you could live in a 5' by 5' room, but you wouldn't be happy.

not sure what temperature your house is at, but anything over 70 and under 79 should be fine. you'll also need a filter. again, they can live without a filter, but then so can any other fish. doesn't mean they will enjoy it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
First off, thank you Catman for the vote of confidence and everyone for your words of wisdom. The Bettas are now each in gallon bowls. (Don't stab me in the neck just yet. In nature they oft dwell in tiny puddles. That's not to say I wouldn't rather them in a bigger set up, I just don't have any for them atm, hence the inquiry. The older one, Henry, came from a cup, went into a 2.5g planted aquarium, went to a twenty extra tall, then to a 75g planted. And yeah, betta are very docile in regards to anything that doesn't look like another male betta. Hey actually only got moved to a bowl because I had a couple of fish that tore up his fins. (You'd never be able t tell now.) But bettas do much better in warmer water and just because they naturally live in stagnant water sometimes, doesn't mean they wont do better in cleaner water. Plus, he'd get more attention and better quality food in the tank.

As for a 45 or 55... I can't go with something that big for the tank. I'm looking at a 29 or 37. Something 30in long as I have a stand and dual t5ho already for it. Even if its only a gallon in his swimming area, itll be two to three times that in total water volume in the false bottom as I plan for it to be inaccessible to fish and frog, it will be water permeable so as to not always need much external filtration. I like the idea of the little box being as self sustaining as possible.

As for it being a lot more work, I don't see how it's all that much if done right. Some passive carbon off the bat to assist the newly establishing bacterial bed, unclogging pump from time to time, flipping a valve to drain off some water if I over mist or to drain and replace half the water. I'm sure I'll probably run into some pitfalls along the way, but I think the benefits outweigh the additional effort. It gives me an addition piece of the chain of life, additional beauty in the tank, consistent added humidity from the moving water, if I were to end up in some sort of emergency situation and couldn't get home to mist the frog have a place to soak, and if I were to be so lucky, I might just be able to get away with raising tads in tank instead of having to screw around with incubators and petri dishes.

But who knows, maybe I'm just a pie eyed newb about to get a crash coarse in Murphy's Law. Either way, it'll be a lot of fun.
 

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you didn't mention how big the water area will be... i wouldn't put a betta in anything less than 5 gallons of water. just because they "can" live in a cup, doesn't mean they "should" live in a cup. you could live in a 5' by 5' room, but you wouldn't be happy.

not sure what temperature your house is at, but anything over 70 and under 79 should be fine. you'll also need a filter. again, they can live without a filter, but then so can any other fish. doesn't mean they will enjoy it.
If I do end up moving Henry over, I'll be running a pump for a water fall and passive carbon (probably directly in from of the intake for the pump. I figure over time as the tank matures, there will be the bacterial bed from the water alone plus filtration from the fact that it's part of the over all water column. I don't know exactly how large the body of water will be. I haven't even bought to tank yet. I doubt the swimmable area will be five gallons, but I'm positive the total volume will be over that. But like I said, anything over a gallon is more than he's currently used to and he'll have natural access to a better source of food.
 

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If I do end up moving Henry over, I'll be running a pump for a water fall and passive carbon (probably directly in from of the intake for the pump. I figure over time as the tank matures, there will be the bacterial bed from the water alone plus filtration from the fact that it's part of the over all water column. I don't know exactly how large the body of water will be. I haven't even bought to tank yet. I doubt the swimmable area will be five gallons, but I'm positive the total volume will be over that. But like I said, anything over a gallon is more than he's currently used to and he'll have natural access to a better source of food.
well yes, bacteria will build up in the substrate, but not nearly as much as you would get in a proper filter. you could probably get a filter rather than a simple pump for the waterfall. it'll give you filtration and do just as good a job as the pump for moving water.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Those little pumps (at least the ones I've seen) are shottily built and tend to fall apart. Generally there's just a little floss (which would seem to clog very easily in such an environment) and a tiny bit of carbon. I think I could get better filtration by cutting a foam cube so the pump is seated inside it and passively running carbon. I could be wrong though and either way, thank you for the input.
 

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Those little pumps (at least the ones I've seen) are shottily built and tend to fall apart. Generally there's just a little floss (which would seem to clog very easily in such an environment) and a tiny bit of carbon. I think I could get better filtration by cutting a foam cube so the pump is seated inside it and passively running carbon. I could be wrong though and either way, thank you for the input.
yeah i'm a little unsure of exactly how that would work. i've been wondering about that myself since i'm setting up a paludarium-ish tank. i wondered if you could simply put a piece of sponge or bio balls in the tank and run water through it/them. it would grow bacteria and filter the water, it just wouldn't remove the particles from the water.

if the pump has floss in it, i would see if you can change it out for a sponge, they work a lot better imo. i don't see why putting the pump into a sponge cube wouldn't work, if the pump is strong enough to pull in the water.
 
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