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If it was, it wasn't the adult frogs that were able to convert carotenes but the tadpoles. There is still significant doubt that adult anurans efficiently convert beta carotene to vitamin A
OK, it was this paper: Studies on Carotenoid Metabolism THE CAROTENOID COMPOSITION OF THE BLOOD, LIVER AND
OVARIES OF THE RAT, EWE, COW AND FROG.

Upon closer inspection it seems that they were using tadpoles, not adult frogs.
 

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Ed why is this based on nutritional requirements used for domestic animals? Is there just no available data on reptiles and amphibians? I would think there would be a vast difference between the nutritional requirements of a cow and a dart frog. As always, thanks for the info.
Because the determination is costly both in terms of dollars, and numbers of animals. For every nutritional requirement being tested you have to establish a diet that is stable with respect to all other nutrients with only the one variable. Then you start with 0% of that nutrient and start the diet and sacrifice statistically acceptable numbers at various intervals of animals for necropsy and histopathology. With each interval, you increase the % of the nutrient under testing until signs of deficiency goes away. This is the lower acceptable limits. This process continues until you begin to see signs of toxicity which establishes the upper safe limit...
As time has gone on, it has been noted that nutritional requirements are highly conserved and there wasn't a real need to continue the massive testing instead, they follow the standard formulas with slight modifications to resolve any quirks.. for example cats require taurine and preformed vitamin A... Virginia opossums (Didelphis virginiana) also requires taurine..but both of them do just fine on the 10 to 1 to 0.1 ratio of A to D3 to E as well as the 1.5-2.0 to 1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus... So in a broad general term, the nutritional needs of a cow aren't that different than a frog.
And to bear repeating... there are no and I repeat NO supplements on the markets that were based solely on data taken from frogs. Instead there are some that were modified based on the results from necropsy reports and the literature on fish/amphibians/reptiles/birds.....

Some comments

Ed
 

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OK, it was this paper: Studies on Carotenoid Metabolism THE CAROTENOID COMPOSITION OF THE BLOOD, LIVER AND
OVARIES OF THE RAT, EWE, COW AND FROG.

Upon closer inspection it seems that they were using tadpoles, not adult frogs.
Actually the more important take away from that article is that it does not prove that beta carotene is converted to vitamin A.. It only proves that small amounts are found in the liver and none was detected in the blood... Thanks for looking it back up, I have a copy of it already, just needed to see which one you were referring to...

Some comments

Ed
 

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If it was, it wasn't the adult frogs that were able to convert carotenes but the tadpoles. There is still significant doubt that adult anurans efficiently convert beta carotene to vitamin A
Ok, did some more searching, and I found literature support for this.

Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana
Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana

In the paper they injected radioactive B-carotene into premetamorphic tadpoles, metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults. They then measured the incorporated radioactive Vitamin A found in the eye. There is a graph that shows that vitamin A was found in much higher levels in premetamorphic tadpoles; metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults both had low levels of vitamin A.
 

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Sent you a pm about the article. The abstract is all I can access. I would be interested in the whole article.

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Ed
 

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Im considering the Beta Carotene which converts to A as all you need. (if you can convert it to Vitamin A and then benefit from it, isnt that essentially using it?) Its safer then supplementing with A alone actually & thats why froggers only use it every so often as a stand alone.. Im not saying anyone that uses the A alone vitamin is wrong. Im just saying that it is not needed if a good multi containing it is used. This is based on my experience.
Yes, plenty of old school froggers have had success in the past, without the benefits of better nutrition. However, "your experience", is not the last word in nutrition. Science has proven to us that our frogs can NOT convert Beta Carotene into vitamin A.
Adding in a proper form of vitamin gives us MORE success. Less egg failure. Less spindly leg. Less sticky tongue syndrome.
Try adding it into your schedule regularly, and religiously for a year. I firmly believe your added success will make a believer of you. Many see results within a month.
 

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I always add some paprika to my fruit fly culture mix (instant potatoes, water, vinegar, 3-5 granules of yeast). Seems to bring out colors in all species that I've kept in the past 20 years.
 

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Yes, plenty of old school froggers have had success in the past, without the benefits of better nutrition. However, "your experience", is not the last word in nutrition. Science has proven to us that our frogs can NOT convert Beta Carotene into vitamin A.
Adding in a proper form of vitamin gives us MORE success. Less egg failure. Less spindly leg. Less sticky tongue syndrome.
Try adding it into your schedule regularly, and religiously for a year. I firmly believe your added success will make a believer of you. Many see results within a month.
Doug you didnt read through all of my comments. I have been using Repashy Calcium PLus in my rotation for at least a year now so the useable form of A is in there. I only stated that I had used Herptivite & Rep Cal D3 for my first 7 years without issue. I never said my experience was the last or even the first word in frog nutrition!lol I was only explaining my methods & even conceded to not knowing about Darts inability to properly Convert enough Beta Carotene to A. THey Actually Can convert it, apparently they cant convert enough though. From what a trusted very long term Breeder told me. Im not here to argue, I appreciate the differing viewpoints, methods, Facts & opinions. I will take your advice & continue to make sure the frogs get a small dose of useable A.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Wow I didn't think this topic would get this much attention.
Thanks for all the info guys! Looks like I have a lot of material to read now haha
 

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Whatever you decide, I would encourage you to do some research beforehand. I think most people that have commented on here have recommended the Repashy Calcium Plus as a primary supplement and I agree. I use the Superpig for added health and coloration enhancement as I previously stated. Unless I see
symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency, I will not use additional Vit A. IMO the Repashy Calcium Plus has sufficient Vit A in the form of Retinol and Carotenoids.
The Superpig has the Carotenoids as well. Good luck with your frogs.

Lane, aka, SilverLynx
 

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For those interested, here are the ingredients in a few of the repashy products

Repashy Calcium Plus
Calcium Carbonate, Dried Kelp, Cellulose (as carrier), Brewer’s Yeast, RoseHips, Calendula Flower, Marigold Flower Extract, Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Paprika Extract, Spirulina Algae, Turmeric, Salt, Potassium Citrate, Magnesium Gluconate, Canthaxanthin, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as mold inhibitors), Natural Flavoring, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement). Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 2%, Crude Fat min. 0.2%, Crude Fat max. 0.6%, Crude Fiber max. 1%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 35%, Calcium min. 17%, Calcium max. 20%, Phosphorus min. 0.6%, Vitamin E min. 2,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D min. 20,000 IU/lb, Vitamin A min. 200,000 IU/lb. Total Carotenoids min. 500 mg/lb.

Repashy SuperPig
Calendula Flower “Pot Marigold”, Capsicum Annuum Extract “Paprika” (Saponified), Tagetes Erecta Extract “Marigold” (Saponified), Pfaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Spirulina Platensis Algae, Rosa Canina Powder “RoseHips”, Curcuma Longa “Turmeric”, Canthaxanthin. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 6%, Crude Fat min. 1%, Crude Fat max. 3%, Crude Fiber max. 10%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 8%. Total Carotenoids min. 3,000 mg/lb.

Repashy Vitamin A Plus
Calcium Carbonate, Fructose Powder, Cellulose Powder (as carriers), Chlorella Algae, Spirulina Algae, Calcium Propionate, Retinyl Acetate, Rosemary and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives). Guaranteed Analysis: Vitamin A (as Retinyl Acetate) 2,000,000 IU/lb.

And for quick reference, compared to Calcium+, Superig has 6X carotenoids, and VitA+ has 10X vitamin A.
 

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Ok, did some more searching, and I found literature support for this.

Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana
Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana

In the paper they injected radioactive B-carotene into premetamorphic tadpoles, metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults. They then measured the incorporated radioactive Vitamin A found in the eye. There is a graph that shows that vitamin A was found in much higher levels in premetamorphic tadpoles; metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults both had low levels of vitamin A.
The article doesn't support the position that adult frogs can uptake and metabolize beta carotene efficiently. The studies involving beta carotene were restricted to tadpoles and metamorphing frogs and excluded the adults. In addition the carotenoid was delivered IP into the abdominal cavity.

In addition, the majority of testing for conversion was restricted into the eye of the amphibian.

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Ed
 

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THey Actually Can convert it, apparently they cant convert enough though.
No, they can't... In a large number of anuran species, post metamorphic animals are documented on necropsy developing squamous metaplasia of the various mucous cells, decreased fertility, and occurrence of spindly leg in offspring... All of these are signs of hypovitaminosis of A and are documented to occur in anurans supplemented with only beta carotene as the source of vitamin A.

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Ed
 

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No, they can't... In a large number of anuran species, post metamorphic animals are documented on necropsy developing squamous metaplasia of the various mucous cells, decreased fertility, and occurrence of spindly leg in offspring... All of these are signs of hypovitaminosis of A and are documented to occur in anurans supplemented with only beta carotene as the source of vitamin A.

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Ed
I was told by a very long term & knowledgeable frogger I trust that the issue is that most frogs cant convert enough of the BCarotene & Not that they all cant convert it at all, I dont have any data that definitively proves which ones cant do it at all or what small quantities some frogs can Convert & of what use that amount is in actuality so thats not really important in my eyes all be it interesting. However, from a practical proper Husbandry & Supplements perspective arent our statements are both suggesting it is best to supplement with a Useable A like whats found in Repashy Cal Plus..
As far as the statement pertaining to anurans supplemented with BCarotene only & developing Issues, I can say without a doubt thats not always true. I only used Herptivite(which I believe was always a beta carotene only supp) & Repcal Calcium D3 my first 7 yrs with frogs. Im not saying I was doing everything the best way & trying to defend that as the "best" Supplementing regimen , it was the way I was taught at the time about 10-11 yrs ago from the vendor I first purchases frogs from. Ive never had a spindly Leg issue & My frogs always thrived.
That being said, as another member stated just because it worked doesnt make it the best or mean there wasnt room for improvement. a few years back I started including Dendrocare in my rotation & last year I started with Repashy Cal plus. At least I am now offering a more complete supplement balance with Actual A included.
 

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I was told by a very long term & knowledgeable frogger I trust that the issue is that most frogs cant convert enough of the BCarotene & Not that they all cant convert it at all, I dont have any data that definitively proves which ones cant do it at all or what small quantities some frogs can Convert & of what use that amount is in actuality so thats not really important in my eyes all be it interesting
There are small sources of vitamin A other than beta carotene which is found in the rhodopsin in the eyes of the flies. IF your "long time & knowledgeable" frogger" said it was beta carotene then he was more than ten years out of date of the best data that we now have...
Given the widespread lack of documented hypovitaminosis of A in very disparate taxa of anurans, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that dendrobatids convert it as adults particularly... This is actually reinforced when we consider the few nutritional analysis of prey species like mites, ants and termites...

However, from a practical proper Husbandry & Supplements perspective arent our statements are both suggesting it is best to supplement with a Useable A like whats found in Repashy Cal Plus..
There is significant difference in our stance.. You have continued to rely that a longtime frogger told you that they can convert some beta carotene which is actually contradicted by analysis of captive anurans fed diets including beta carotene as the sole source of vitamin A. This is anecdotal evidence versus actual documented methodology...


As far as the statement pertaining to anurans supplemented with BCarotene only & developing Issues, I can say without a doubt thats not always true. I only used Herptivite(which I believe was always a beta carotene only supp) & Repcal Calcium D3 my first 7 yrs with frogs. Im not saying I was doing everything the best way & trying to defend that as the "best" Supplementing regimen , it was the way I was taught at the time about 10-11 yrs ago from the vendor I first purchases frogs from. Ive never had a spindly Leg issue & My frogs always thrived.
And how many were necropsied and had histopathology done for squamous metaplasia? If they were larger dendrobatids like tinctorius or auratus did they live closer to the maximal life span or did they die off much earlier? Your stating a personal opinion without any supporting data. To get the ball rolling on the good data, I suggest starting here ingentaconnect Abnormalities of forelimb and pronephros in a direct developing f...

and
Pessier, A., D. Roberts and M. Linn (2002). Short Tongue Syndrome, Lingual Squamous Metaplasia and Suspected Hypovitaminosis a in Captive Wyoming Toads, Bufo baxteri. 9th Annual Meeting of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, Reno, NV, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians.



That being said, as another member stated just because it worked doesnt make it the best or mean there wasnt room for improvement. a few years back I started including Dendrocare in my rotation & last year I started with Repashy Cal plus. At least I am now offering a more complete supplement balance with Actual A included.
And still relying on anecdotal evidence as "proof" on how your alternate methodology is/was okay....

As for proof I've posted many references on this sort of discussion over the years and my attitude has changed along with the best data. See the above references as a start for referencing....

Some comments

Ed
 

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There are small sources of vitamin A other than beta carotene which is found in the rhodopsin in the eyes of the flies. IF your "long time & knowledgeable" frogger" said it was beta carotene then he was more than ten years out of date of the best data that we now have...
Given the widespread lack of documented hypovitaminosis of A in very disparate taxa of anurans, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that dendrobatids convert it as adults particularly... This is actually reinforced when we consider the few nutritional analysis of prey species like mites, ants and termites...



There is significant difference in our stance.. You have continued to rely that a longtime frogger told you that they can convert some beta carotene which is actually contradicted by analysis of captive anurans fed diets including beta carotene as the sole source of vitamin A. This is anecdotal evidence versus actual documented methodology...




And how many were necropsied and had histopathology done for squamous metaplasia? If they were larger dendrobatids like tinctorius or auratus did they live closer to the maximal life span or did they die off much earlier? Your stating a personal opinion without any supporting data. To get the ball rolling on the good data, I suggest starting here ingentaconnect Abnormalities of forelimb and pronephros in a direct developing f...

and
Pessier, A., D. Roberts and M. Linn (2002). Short Tongue Syndrome, Lingual Squamous Metaplasia and Suspected Hypovitaminosis a in Captive Wyoming Toads, Bufo baxteri. 9th Annual Meeting of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, Reno, NV, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians.





And still relying on anecdotal evidence as "proof" on how your alternate methodology is/was okay....

As for proof I've posted many references on this sort of discussion over the years and my attitude has changed along with the best data. See the above references as a start for referencing....

Some comments

Ed
I don't need to reference at all, you have done enough of that..lol Ive got plenty material should I get a moment to read.. Thanks.. I have not stated opinion when I talked about having frogs for 7 years & using Herptivite & Repcal Calcium D3, that was a fact & that method did well for me during a time when I was not aware of a better formula. I didn't get any tests done because none of my frogs died abnormally or early & I even have a group of Auratus from when I first started.
I was only stating what someone I trust told me because I value his opinion. Its completely untrue that I "relied on anecdotal proof to validate my methodology"!lol Ive already stated about 3 times now that my first 7 years frogging I wasn't using the best supplement regimen so why would I defend a system this thread has proven to not be the best course of action? I was merely stating that it worked.. You can imagine in your mind that the frogs were sick or that they had issues that would've been detected had tests been done, but you cant prove that any more then I can prove they were in good health. Perhaps they were getting the Vitamin A from the Flies Eyes as you suggested.. Or maybe it was the other insects Id throw in once in a while. Im not sure, but my frogs did well during that period. I didn't realize I had to make a statement & attach an Article to be useful here.. Id like to get back to the point Which is the BEst Supplements to USe I for the Past Couple of years have used Repashy Cal plus, Dendrocare , & still HErptivite & Repcal D3, I alternate, Which Im aware others frown upon & think you should stick to the sup you trust to be the best. Im not saying that's the best recipe, Im just saying its the one I use & the frogs are all breeding & thriving with a healthy morph rate. Im glad I learned about the BEta Carotene & Vitamin A issue because now I can ensure I don't ever run into an issue.
 

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Are their any differences between Repashys T-rex Bearded Dragon dust and Leopard gecko dust?, and any significant differences from Repashy Calcium plus? A cursory glance at the ingredients show them to be identical.

Zoomed Reptivite also contains available vitamin A. But I haven't heard of anyone using it with their frogs.

The fact that success was had with Rep-cal/Herptivite could be due to varied diets or some other source of vit A we can't tease out. Would microfauna or FF convert beta carotenes to vitamin A for the frogs? Say you gutload isopods with a chunk of mango, papaya, or similar fruit.
 

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Are their any differences between Repashys T-rex Bearded Dragon dust and Leopard gecko dust?, and any significant differences from Repashy Calcium plus? A cursory glance at the ingredients show them to be identical.

Zoomed Reptivite also contains available vitamin A. But I haven't heard of anyone using it with their frogs.

The fact that success was had with Rep-cal/Herptivite could be due to varied diets or some other source of vit A we can't tease out. Would microfauna or FF convert beta carotenes to vitamin A for the frogs? Say you gutload isopods with a chunk of mango, papaya, or similar fruit.
Thats funny, I was wondering the same thing about insects diet & if/how it affects the nutritional value to the frogs with respect to Available useable Coenzymes/vitamins... I used to feed a larger variety of insects & larvae years ago when I had lizards to help eat the bugs that got too large & reproduced in large numbers, but now I pretty much use Melos raised on standard fly media as a staple so proper supplementing is crucial.. It seems most people believe Repashy Cal plus is the most complete & effective Stand alone Supp for frogs containing all they need in one container.. I may have gotten away with Herptivite & Repcal Calcium D3 for years in the past when I didnt know any better, but to be honest Im not sure how or why.. Im just glad Ive introduced better more complete supplements into my regimen the last few years.. Man you treat your Isos good man? you would give them a Fresh Mango!?lol I dont know if I could share...
 
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