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I believe that spirulina has long been thought to try and supplement blues and greens but to the best of my knowledge nothing has ever been proven.
Last year Ed posted on a thread about dart frogs skin and iridophores and such. I'm trying to find the thread without much luck so far.
It doesn't matter what you feed the frogs.. you cannot increase blue pigmentation or the blue pigment part of green.. What you may be able to do in theory is push the green more towards the yellow end of the spectrum by increasing the levels of sequestered yellow carotenoids that are being used to filter the reflected light...
The reason for this is because metallic pigments, and blue pigments are not due to a sequestered carotenoid pigment. They are due to reflection (and in some cases polarization) of light from crystalline structures known as iridophores.

Some comments

Ed
 

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I don't see anyone saying Repashy Superevite? How come?

Our dust supplemental regiment includes the following:

Repashy Calcium Plus
Repashy Supervite
Repashy Vitamin A Plus
Rep-Cal Calcium + Vit D3
Rep-Cal Herptivite

We dust with Rep-Cal Calcium and Herptivite mixed at the time of feeding. We don't mix any others together.

Vitamin A Plus gets used about once a month.

We alternate between Repashy products and Rep-Cal products.

I prefer feeding with Rep-Cal as it coats the flies better. I find the Repashy products clump up in the feeder cup after a few minutes, which results us having to work with it in much smaller quantities at a time.

Whatever you choose, remember to keep your supplements well sealed and stored in the refrigerator to provide you with their maximum benefits. Also, be sure to replace them at the six month mark of being opened.

Brad
Hey Brad, you asked about Supervite, so I'll answer, but it comes with a bit of an explanation. First off, as I mentioned earlier, supplements must balance, or you may be diluting. The Repashy Calcium Plus is designed by Allen to be a stand alone supplement for our frogs. It carries a balanced proportion of vitamins and calcium. In a personal email with Allen Repashy, he assured me that the Calcium Plus is a stand alone product. He further explained that the Supervite is designed to be used hand in hand with any of three products. Those three products are Supercal LoD, Supercal MeD, or Supercal HyD. These allow you to custom tailor your calcium dosing amounts and are generally used in conjunction with UVB lighting. Allen also stated that they work well for old school froggers who have a hard time swallowing an all-in-one supplement.
OK, so you are using the Supervite, but you are NOT balancing that with any of the Supercal formulas. That MIGHT be a potential low calcium situation.
Technically, you are adding some Rep-Cal, BUT you are balancing that with their sister product, Herptivite. Since that addition of calcium is balanced by the Herptivite, it does not do anything to shore up the potential calcium deficiency.
(Now I've commented on Rep-Cal and Herptivite, so I have to follow that up with this: I choose NOT to use Rep-Cal and Herptivite in my frogroom.) It's nice to see your additional Repashy Vitamin A to help shore up that weak point in the Herptivite.
Sorry, I know you didn't ask my opinion on the Rep-Cal and Herptivite, but it all kind of ties together, to explain why I do NOT use Repashy Supervite, even though I am fully satisfied with the Repashy line of products.

To make sure I am fully clear, I have nothing against the use of Repashy Supervite, but I think that it might be better balanced by adding in one of the Repashy SuperCal formulas.
 

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actually this is incorrect, frogs need a usable source of vitamin a as doug stated in an earlier post
Perhaps you misunderstood me. Herptivite is a multivitamin supplement, Repashy Supervite is a Multivitamin supp, Cal plus is a multi supp with Calcium.. Thats all I meant.. That you need to use one of the Multivitamin Powders with a calcium, I thought that was easily deduced from the rest of my thread. I was not implying that you could crush up Centrums and sprinkle them onto flies!lol
 

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Perhaps you misunderstood me. Herptivite is a multivitamin supplement, Repashy Supervite is a Multivitamin supp, Cal plus is a multi supp with Calcium.. Thats all I meant.. That you need to use one of the Multivitamin Powders with a calcium, I thought that was easily deduced from the rest of my thread. I was not implying that you could crush up Centrums and sprinkle them onto flies!lol
Sorry my apologies, I didnt realize you wrote Useable source of Vitamin "A" & not useable vitamins. Herptivite & Repcal PLus both Contain a useable source of Vitamin A So I was not Incorrect being that whichever multivitamin you choose of the ones I listed you are supplying Vitamin A or Beta Carotene which converts to it. . The stand alone Vitamin A is not needed. Ive gone 10 years without it & my frogs, breed healthy froglets, Live long & thrive.
 

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Sorry my apologies, I didnt realize you wrote Useable source of Vitamin "A" & not useable vitamins. Herptivite & Repcal PLus both Contain a useable source of Vitamin A So I was not Incorrect being that whichever multivitamin you choose of the ones I listed you are supplying Vitamin A or Beta Carotene which converts to it. . The stand alone Vitamin A is not needed. Ive gone 10 years without it & my frogs, breed healthy froglets, Live long & thrive.
Actually you are wrong. Herptivite does not contain ANY Vitamin A. Which is why it says on the label, With Beta Carotene, it's counting on the natural conversion of Beta Carotene into Vitamin A. I believe it's been researched and concluded that dart frogs cannot convert beta carotene into Vit A. Herptivite was developed years ago in response to Chameleon breeders that thought their charges were getting too much Vit. A. Nutritional research has advanced since then and it's been discovered that much more Vit. A is needed than previously thought. This is why Herptivite is outdated and pretty much worthless IMO.
I'll look for the thread about Vit A. in frogs. But again, there is no Vit A in Herptivite. In addition Repcal is just Calcium, with Vit D3 added. There is no useable Vit A in that product either.
Check this thread out. Perhaps someone can provde us with the link to the peer reviewed paper.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/89172-repashy-2.html
 

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As previously mentioned, Cal+ is composed of superpig by about 6%. Therefore, every single ingredient present in superpig is also present in Cal+ (you can check the ingredient label to confirm).

Superpig is mainly meant to be used as a color enhancer; it's carotenoids will only enhance reds/yellows though. Carotenoids are important in animals because they can get converted into vitamin A and act as antioxidants; they also play an important role in maintaining vision quality. So, some people think that supplementing superpig is important for metabolic reasons (but I personally do not since it's included in Cal+).



Because we're lazy and Cal+ has everything frogs need really, right? :p



I believe this has been discussed on the boards, but I think the greens and blues in frogs are caused by a different mechanism than the reds/yellows (iridophores), and you can't really supplement/enhance for them.
Thanks, that information about superpig is helpful because I really dont see the point of buying it any more if a small percentage is already included in the Cal plus..IN my opinion using one of the MUltis like Cal plus or Dendrocare alone (since they have calcium & every essential Vitamin frogs require) or Herptivite & Repcal D3 is all you need. The stand alone vitamins like A or the Superpig are really just optional. Like most things pertaining to frogs, theres not one right way to do it.. Im just giving you what has worked exceptionally well for me.. A trusted multi With a trusted Calcium D3 source. And Cal plus does have everything you need.. Its not lazy, its cost effective & smart to Find an all in one that actually works & has all the frogs need. Im not saying you are wrong for using Superpig & Vit A stand alones. Im just Saying plenty of froggers dont & have no worse results for it. Im not telling anyone how to supplement, Im telling you what Ive done ove he years that has worked for me.
 

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i think you're missing what we're saying. herptivite does NOT have a useable sourse of vitamin a.

Thanks, that information about superpig is helpful because I really dont see the point of buying it any more if a small percentage is already included in the Cal plus..IN my opinion using one of the MUltis like Cal plus or Dendrocare alone (since they have calcium & every essential Vitamin frogs require) or Herptivite & Repcal D3 is all you need. The stand alone vitamins like A or the Superpig are really just optional. Like most things pertaining to frogs, theres not one right way to do it.. Im just giving you what has worked exceptionally well for me.. A trusted multi With a trusted Calcium D3 source. And Cal plus does have everything you need.. Its not lazy, its cost effective & smart to Find an all in one that actually works & has all the frogs need. Im not saying you are wrong for using Superpig & Vit A stand alones. Im just Saying plenty of froggers dont & have no worse results for it. Im not telling anyone how to supplement, Im telling you what Ive done ove he years that has worked for me.
 

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Actually you are wrong. Herptivite does not contain ANY Vitamin A. Which is why it says on the label, With Beta Carotene, it's counting on the natural conversion of Beta Carotene into Vitamin A. I believe it's been researched and concluded that dart frogs cannot convert beta carotene into Vit A. Herptivite was developed years ago in response to Chameleon breeders that thought their charges were getting too much Vit. A. Nutritional research has advanced since then and it's been discovered that much more Vit. A is needed than previously thought. This is why Herptivite is outdated and pretty much worthless IMO.
I'll look for the thread about Vit A. in frogs. But again, there is no Vit A in Herptivite. In addition Repcal is just Calcium, with Vit D3 added. There is no useable Vit A in that product either.
Check this thread out. Perhaps someone can provde us with the link to the peer reviewed paper.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/89172-repashy-2.html
re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..
 

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Pumilo - I hope you have that post saved somewhere so you don't have to repeatedly type it out haha.

Also, while it has been mentioned repeatedly before, I'm starting to doubt that Cal+ has been designed specifically as a standalone product for our frogs. I don't know how differently a frog supplement formulation would be than a general reptile one (if at all), but it seems to me, from what I've been reading on the forum, that Cal+ might be a bit too low in vitamin A. This is evidenced by the fact that many hobbyists (on the board at least) chose to supplement vitamin A in conjunction with Cal+. And also by the fact that you'll see signs of vit A deficiency even in frogs that are being supplemented with Cal+.

re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..
I think the point Rusty was trying to make is that frogs cannot cannot convert beta carotene into vit A, therefore it has no "useable" vitamin A
 

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i think you're still missing the point. we know that herptivite contains beta carotene. the problem is our frogs can not convert it to vitamin a.

re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..
 

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i think you're missing what we're saying. herptivite does NOT have a useable sourse of vitamin a.
Im considering the Beta Carotene which converts to A as all you need. (if you can convert it to Vitamin A and then benefit from it, isnt that essentially using it?) Its safer then supplementing with A alone actually & thats why froggers only use it every so often as a stand alone.. Im not saying anyone that uses the A alone vitamin is wrong. Im just saying that it is not needed if a good multi containing it is used. This is based on my experience.
 

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re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..
That's my point. Frogs cannot convert Beta Carotene into Vit. A, therefore a supplement that contains a useable form of Vit. A is necessary. Could you keep frogs alive on Herptivite and Repcal? Probably. Could you have more success and breeding success with a supplement that contains a useable form of Vit. A? Absolutely.

Pumilo - I hope you have that post saved somewhere so you don't have to repeatedly type it out haha.

Also, while it has been mentioned repeatedly before, I'm starting to doubt that Cal+ has been designed specifically as a standalone product for our frogs. I don't know how differently a frog supplement formulation would be than a general reptile one (if at all), but it seems to me, from what I've been reading on the forum, that Cal+ might be a bit too low in vitamin A. This is evidenced by the fact that many hobbyists (on the board at least) chose to supplement vitamin A in conjunction with Cal+. And also by the fact that you'll see signs of vit A deficiency even in frogs that are being supplemented with Cal+.



I think the point Rusty was trying to make is that frogs cannot cannot convert beta carotene into vit A, therefore it has no "useable" vitamin A
I agree, a rotation of several supplements is probably the best practice. Since nutritionally we really don't know what the minimum/maximum requirements are for dart frogs a rotation is probably best so that we don't underdose or overdose with any particular vitamin/mineral.
 

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I disagree. If you go back and read the Repashy thread youll see that Allen has put a LOT of work into making sure his product is an all in one, all encompassing solution to our frogs nutritional requirements.

I think its counter productive to rotate between repashy and a lower quality product.
 

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i think you're still missing the point. we know that herptivite contains beta carotene. the problem is our frogs can not convert it to vitamin a.
Sorry, I was missing the point, you just really explained it fully now!lol I was unaware frogs didnt benefit from the Beta Carotene? the last few years Ive alternated supps so my frogs lately have gotten Vit A.... I use Dendrocare alone some days, Cal plus alone some days , HErptivite & Repcal Calcium D3 others so these past few years I cant isolate the results of any supp in particular.
However, I had no issues with my frogs using Herptivite & Rep Cal D3 from around 03' to 10'. That is very interesting that the frogs Cannot convert the Beta Carotene. With that being said, if it is essential to the frogs health as other members stated, shouldnt my frogs have had Deficiency issues or not thrived? This is interesting to me, thank you all for the feedback. Its funny, Ive learned more on here chatting with people in a year then I did the first 7 years I had frogs.. Wish I knew about DB earlier...
 

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That is very interesting that the frogs Cannot convert the Beta Carotene. With that being said, if it is essential to the frogs health as other members stated, shouldnt my frogs have had Deficiency issues or not thrived? This is interesting to me, thank you all for the feedback. Its funny, Ive learned more on here chatting with people in a year then I did the first 7 years I had frogs.. Wish I knew about DB earlier...
I've been wondering this as well... I did a literature search on the subject just now, and I found at least one paper that found that bullfrogs at least were found to have high vitamin A levels when fed B carotene. I couldn't find a quick paper that mentioned dart frogs though.
 

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I've been wondering this as well... I did a literature search on the subject just now, and I found at least one paper that found that bullfrogs at least were found to have high vitamin A levels when fed B carotene. I couldn't find a quick paper that mentioned dart frogs though.
I find all this Fascinating, Im going to look into it more as well.. Thanks for the info!
 

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I've been wondering this as well... I did a literature search on the subject just now, and I found at least one paper that found that bullfrogs at least were found to have high vitamin A levels when fed B carotene. I couldn't find a quick paper that mentioned dart frogs though.
Which paper was that, was it


In vitro
metabolism of carotenoids, ß carotene and lutein into retinoids in
amphibians
?

If it was, it wasn't the adult frogs that were able to convert carotenes but the tadpoles. There is still significant doubt that adult anurans efficiently convert beta carotene to vitamin A (see for example [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Veterinary-Advisor-Birds-Exotic/dp/1416039694/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381517075&sr=1-1&keywords=1416039694"]Clinical Veterinary Advisor: Birds and Exotic Pets, 1e[/ame] by Joerg Mayer Dr.med.vet. M.Sc. Dip. ABVP (exotic companion mammal) DECZM (small mammal) and Thomas M. Donnelly BVSc DACLAM (Dec 20, 2012) ).

Some comments

Ed


 

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I agree, a rotation of several supplements is probably the best practice. Since nutritionally we really don't know what the minimum/maximum requirements are for dart frogs a rotation is probably best so that we don't underdose or overdose with any particular vitamin/mineral.
I'm going to flag this as incorrect. The reason is that with some quirks in some taxa, nutritional requirements are highly conserved across taxa.. In fact they are all based on the same basic nutritional requirements developed for domestic animals.. That is why the ratios of vitamin A to D3 to E in quality supplements are all close to 10 to 1 to 0.1..., that the supplements are targeted towards providing a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1.5-1 to 2 to 1.....
Even the issues with vitamin A are related to what is seen in other taxa (example felids do not convert beta carotene to vitamin A, but it is absorbed and circulated through their bodies.....
Since the supplements are all targeted towards the same nutritional goals, switching them with the idea that a rotation is better is incorrect...

The only real value in a rotation is due to potential issues with manufacturing both within and between batches of some of the supplements. A number of the well established supplements on analysis were shown to have wide variations within and between batches as compared to what was claimed on the label (ranging from 0% to more than 100%). Any value for this is going to depend on the quality control on the product... If you trust the manufacturer, there is no value in switching....provided vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate or acetate is the source of vitamin A activity.

At this time, I no longer use any of the older supplements that use beta carotene as the main or sole source of vitamin A...
Some comments

Ed
 

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I'm going to flag this as incorrect. The reason is that with some quirks in some taxa, nutritional requirements are highly conserved across taxa.. In fact they are all based on the same basic nutritional requirements developed for domestic animals.. That is why the ratios of vitamin A to D3 to E in quality supplements are all close to 10 to 1 to 0.1..., that the supplements are targeted towards providing a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1.5-1 to 2 to 1.....
Even the issues with vitamin A are related to what is seen in other taxa (example felids do not convert beta carotene to vitamin A, but it is absorbed and circulated through their bodies.....
Since the supplements are all targeted towards the same nutritional goals, switching them with the idea that a rotation is better is incorrect...

The only real value in a rotation is due to potential issues with manufacturing both within and between batches of some of the supplements. A number of the well established supplements on analysis were shown to have wide variations within and between batches as compared to what was claimed on the label (ranging from 0% to more than 100%). Any value for this is going to depend on the quality control on the product... If you trust the manufacturer, there is no value in switching....provided vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate or acetate is the source of vitamin A activity.

At this time, I no longer use any of the older supplements that use beta carotene as the main or sole source of vitamin A...
Some comments

Ed
Ed why is this based on nutritional requirements used for domestic animals? Is there just no available data on reptiles and amphibians? I would think there would be a vast difference between the nutritional requirements of a cow and a dart frog. As always, thanks for the info.
 
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