[Tostra]

Hi! I'm a beginner in the hobby, or maybe not even that, as I don't yet have frogs. I have been planning a vivarium for years and just now got around to building it. It's not completely finished and definitely needs time to settle before I add frogs anyway, but I'm very excited to do so in maybe a few months.
My setup is a 35*35*50cm vertical tank with soon-to-be plenty of light, a slow waterfall/dripwall, air circulation from a 50mm fan integrated in the background with variable intake, false bottom, a small corner of water which the frogs can definitely escape from, three different bromeliads and plenty of spots for hiding and climbing. It's probably on the smaller side for keeping frogs, but I think a small group would thrive in there.
It's a bit dark, but a pic of the setup can be seen here for more details:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBqsveqpDf-/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet

And with some context in place, I have some questions:
First of all, I added springtails and dwarf white isopods a few days ago. I also received a culture of Porcellionides pruinosus, but I didn't add it, as they seem very large and active, and of course I've heard the rumours of them eating (bad?) eggs and plant roots... I don't want this thread to turn into another discussion on that topic, but should I add them for additional CUC biodiversity, or am I better off sticking to the dwarf species and springtails?

My second question is, which frogs should I add? I have narrowed it down to Ranitomeya amazonica Iquitos or R. imitator, either Varadero or Chazuta. I haven't been able to find as much information about R.amazonica, and I was really hoping that someone could help me decide which one is best suited for me:
- Obviously, I want the boldest species, which seems to be the imitators. Can the amazonicas be bold as well? They will be in my livingroom, as I'm moving into a tiny apartment, so I was hoping they could get used to human activity around them.
- I play the cello, so is either one of them more sensitive to outside noise?
- I'll be recording sometimes, so I am a bit worried about their calling. The amazonicas seem much quieter, is that correct? Is the calling every day or just in some periods? Because if it's just sometimes, I can just not record there, and that should be fine...
- I would like to see froglets in my setup. Preferably I would like them to just breed in the bromeliads(I would prefer not adding film canisters) and take care of the tadpoles themselves. I've heard that imitators are quite good parents, but could amazonicas breed in this setup as well?
Originally I wanted amazonica, but I have started to like the look of imitators as well. Maybe they're a bit more vibrant in pictures?

And lastly, how many frogs should I get? Is it best to have a pair or a trio, and would the existing group accept me keeping a couple of tadpoles, or would that just result in rivalry? I'm obviously not expecting to keep a large number of tadpoles, but keeping one or two that have grown up in the setup and selling the rest would be nice.

Thanks in advance
-Tobias

 

[Broseph]

That is a very small and very wet looking vivarium. Dart frogs need more room and less moisture.

Sorry, OP.

Seems like there have been many posts like this lately. A quick search should turn up plenty of results for the rationale for a larger, drier tank.

 

[fishingguy12345]

Hi! I'm a beginner in the hobby, or maybe not even that, as I don't yet have frogs. I have been planning a vivarium for years and just now got around to building it. It's not completely finished and definitely needs time to settle before I add frogs anyway, but I'm very excited to do so in maybe a few months.

My setup is a 35*35*50cm vertical tank with soon-to-be plenty of light, a slow waterfall/dripwall, air circulation from a 50mm fan integrated in the background with variable intake, false bottom, a small corner of water which the frogs can definitely escape from, three different bromeliads and plenty of spots for hiding and climbing. It's probably on the smaller side for keeping frogs, but I think a small group would thrive in there.

It's a bit dark, but a pic of the setup can be seen here for more details:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBqsveqpDf-/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet



And with some context in place, I have some questions:

First of all, I added springtails and dwarf white isopods a few days ago. I also received a culture of Porcellionides pruinosus, but I didn't add it, as they seem very large and active, and of course I've heard the rumours of them eating (bad?) eggs and plant roots... I don't want this thread to turn into another discussion on that topic, but should I add them for additional CUC biodiversity, or am I better off sticking to the dwarf species and springtails?



My second question is, which frogs should I add? I have narrowed it down to Ranitomeya amazonica Iquitos or R. imitator, either Varadero or Chazuta. I haven't been able to find as much information about R.amazonica, and I was really hoping that someone could help me decide which one is best suited for me:

- Obviously, I want the boldest species, which seems to be the imitators. Can the amazonicas be bold as well? They will be in my livingroom, as I'm moving into a tiny apartment, so I was hoping they could get used to human activity around them.

- I play the cello, so is either one of them more sensitive to outside noise?

- I'll be recording sometimes, so I am a bit worried about their calling. The amazonicas seem much quieter, is that correct? Is the calling every day or just in some periods? Because if it's just sometimes, I can just not record there, and that should be fine...

- I would like to see froglets in my setup. Preferably I would like them to just breed in the bromeliads(I would prefer not adding film canisters) and take care of the tadpoles themselves. I've heard that imitators are quite good parents, but could amazonicas breed in this setup as well?

Originally I wanted amazonica, but I have started to like the look of imitators as well. Maybe they're a bit more vibrant in pictures?



And lastly, how many frogs should I get? Is it best to have a pair or a trio, and would the existing group accept me keeping a couple of tadpoles, or would that just result in rivalry? I'm obviously not expecting to keep a large number of tadpoles, but keeping one or two that have grown up in the setup and selling the rest would be nice.



Thanks in advance

-Tobias

Firstly, welcome.

That's a lot of questions in one post

You're unlikely to like the advice you're going to get, but here goes anyways.

The drip wall and pond are completely unnecessary, and are taking up space in your already minimal size terrarium. I looked at the picture you posted, that's a VERY wet terrarium. My terrariums only get that wet immediately after a very heavy misting (perhaps that's when you took the picture as well, I don't know).

Ponds usually equal wet substrate which then rots and smells gross and keeps the frogs TOO wet.

I have a group of 3 Ranitomeya amazonica "Iquitos" in a 30x30x45cm terrarium but am soon to be moving them to a 45x45x60cm terrarium to give them more space. (when that happens I won't have any frogs in tanks smaller than 45x45x60cm). They're not the boldest of frogs but I enjoy playing the "search for the frogs" game. Imitators are, by most accounts, far more bold than the amazonica will be. In your setup, you barely will have room for the adult frogs you want, let alone froglets. You might be amazed for many tadpoles/froglets you'll end up with. There are accounts on this board of people starting with 3 imitators in a tank the size you're working with and ending up with 10+ frogs in a year or two. I would really suggest starting with a bigger tank, if possible.

For the cleanup crew: none of my terrariums have anything besides dwarf whites and springtails in them. I wouldn't add the Porcellionides pruinosus into the enclosure, they're very prolific and will start to stress the frogs out since this is a pretty small space.


Here are some pictures of my Ranitomeya amazonica "Iquitos" terrarium, I've used cork pieces to create a "second storey" for them to make more space (these pictures are all when it was pretty new, I can add some with the plants having grown in later today if you

want)

 

[Tostra]

Hi, thanks for the fast replies
Let me just touch on the setup really quickly...
The moisture can be regulated, so once I have frogs, I'll dial it into what they like. The picture is right after a misting, of course, but I do keep it quite wet right now as I don't have any frogs for my orchids.
I know that the pond takes up space at the bottom. However, it is very small, and they can walk on most of it, since it is almost filled up with H.c Cuba and mosses. The substrate is just fine, as the pond is just a divot below the water level of the false bottom. The substrate in the pond is gravel rather than soil so that the water doesn't wick up into the soil.
I know it's not very big, but there is much more depth to it than I can show in the picture. Rather than just using the bottom and walls, I have tried to create a lot of room in the middle of the tank. Behind the bromeliad is an area that is completely missing from the pic with a few different plants. It's almost just a plant knot where the frogs should be able to walk inside it, on top, below... Basically I've tried to expand the floor to several layers. The same goes for the top. There is a piece of wood sticking out into the middle like your second story. Behind it in the darkness of the low exposure is the beginning of the waterfall and a wet terrace or two where they can walk. In the middle of the tank is a piece of wood reaching up towards the background. This is where the bromeliad is mounted, but there is still plenty of room for moss, vines and frogs on it.
I really do think that they will have enough room in this tank even though its outside dimensions aren't very impressive. However, I think you're right that I can't have more than maybe three frogs. So if I got a pair and kept an additional female froglet later on, wouldn't that be good?

Of course I'm here to listen to the more experienced people, so if you really think it's not enough room, I won't get any frogs. But if you could have three amazonicas in your tank and they were somewhat happy, I'm pretty confident they could go in my tank as well. I can try to get a few pictures with a different light to show more depth if you want?
I'm sorry if I come across very defensive. I did build this one with frogs in mind, and I was aware of the space limit and tried to work around it, so I guess I'm a little worried I may not have done it well enough. I still blame it on the photo, though

I would like to see an updated photo, yes. Ypu have a few plants in there that I'm curious to see how developed.

So, did your amazonicas breed at all? I do want some breeding, but if they were a little less prolific than the imitators, that wouldn't be a bad thing. My initial idea was to keep no more than four and catch the rest, but because it's vere layered and therefore difficult to fit my hands in, I wouldn't mind not catching frogs quite so often...

As it is now, I really like the amazonicas and even have a place I could buy them, but it sounds like imitators are a lot bolder and I would see them often? I don't mind searching for them, but I would like to see them in the front or on the bromeliads once in a while too, or I don't think I could ever find them

I won't add in the larger isopods.

 

[Tostra]

You know what, rather than trying to describe it, I just tried to take some pictures. I still wasn't able to properly get my camera and light in a position that shows the back areas, but I hope you can see that there is a lot going on behind what was visible on the IG picture. Do you still think it's too small, or is the added climbing area enough to fit a small group?
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EW8E1IvCdzG-WFApg4d15V7tcuTOWtUN?usp=sharing

I know that the pictures are terrible, but the position and hardscape of the vivarium didn't allow very much

 

[fishingguy12345]

Hi, thanks for the fast replies

Let me just touch on the setup really quickly...

The moisture can be regulated, so once I have frogs, I'll dial it into what they like. The picture is right after a misting, of course, but I do keep it quite wet right now as I don't have any frogs for my orchids.

I know that the pond takes up space at the bottom. However, it is very small, and they can walk on most of it, since it is almost filled up with H.c Cuba and mosses. The substrate is just fine, as the pond is just a divot below the water level of the false bottom. The substrate in the pond is gravel rather than soil so that the water doesn't wick up into the soil.

I know it's not very big, but there is much more depth to it than I can show in the picture. Rather than just using the bottom and walls, I have tried to create a lot of room in the middle of the tank. Behind the bromeliad is an area that is completely missing from the pic with a few different plants. It's almost just a plant knot where the frogs should be able to walk inside it, on top, below... Basically I've tried to expand the floor to several layers. The same goes for the top. There is a piece of wood sticking out into the middle like your second story. Behind it in the darkness of the low exposure is the beginning of the waterfall and a wet terrace or two where they can walk. In the middle of the tank is a piece of wood reaching up towards the background. This is where the bromeliad is mounted, but there is still plenty of room for moss, vines and frogs on it.

I really do think that they will have enough room in this tank even though its outside dimensions aren't very impressive. However, I think you're right that I can't have more than maybe three frogs. So if I got a pair and kept an additional female froglet later on, wouldn't that be good?



Of course I'm here to listen to the more experienced people, so if you really think it's not enough room, I won't get any frogs. But if you could have three amazonicas in your tank and they were somewhat happy, I'm pretty confident they could go in my tank as well. I can try to get a few pictures with a different light to show more depth if you want?

I'm sorry if I come across very defensive. I did build this one with frogs in mind, and I was aware of the space limit and tried to work around it, so I guess I'm a little worried I may not have done it well enough. I still blame it on the photo, though



I would like to see an updated photo, yes. Ypu have a few plants in there that I'm curious to see how developed.



So, did your amazonicas breed at all? I do want some breeding, but if they were a little less prolific than the imitators, that wouldn't be a bad thing. My initial idea was to keep no more than four and catch the rest, but because it's vere layered and therefore difficult to fit my hands in, I wouldn't mind not catching frogs quite so often...



As it is now, I really like the amazonicas and even have a place I could buy them, but it sounds like imitators are a lot bolder and I would see them often? I don't mind searching for them, but I would like to see them in the front or on the bromeliads once in a while too, or I don't think I could ever find them



I won't add in the larger isopods.

I see at least one of the three amazonica in my tank most times that I check on the tank. I usually see two of the three out, sometimes all three. They explore every inch of the tank, but in my experience (with this species and my other frogs) they avoid the wettest areas of the tank. This is why I particularly dislike water features. After misting, most of my frogs spend time wherever it's not overly wet. This will be hard to get away from in a tank with a pond and a drip wall/terrace. (You reference a wet terrace, I think the frogs will avoid this as much as they can, I could be wrong but that's what I'd expect from observing my frogs)

I have some trimming to do in this tank in the next week or so.

Here's what it looks like having grown in for about 3 months

 

[Tostra]

Thank you, that looks very nice!
And I will definitely think about what you say about wet areas... I didn't know that. The area I'm talking about is quite wet because of the waterfall, but there arre dry spots too. Of course where the water runs it's wet, but otherwise I think most wet spots are vertical anyway.
I'm surprised to hear that they don't like moisture that much. I was planning to mist quite often, but I guess I'll just do it once or twice a day then so it can dry up in between mistings. And maybe I should let in a lot of dry air in the circulation to make the drying happen faster as well. How humid are your tanks? I was under the impression that anywhere between 70% and 100% was good, but maybe it's more like 70-85% then?
It's nice to hear that they're out and about. How about breeding, do you get tadpoles in the bromeliads or does it require film canisters? Would they be able to take care of the tadpoles on their own?

 

[fishingguy12345]

Thank you, that looks very nice!

And I will definitely think about what you say about wet areas... I didn't know that. The area I'm talking about is quite wet because of the waterfall, but there arre dry spots too. Of course where the water runs it's wet, but otherwise I think most wet spots are vertical anyway.

I'm surprised to hear that they don't like moisture that much. I was planning to mist quite often, but I guess I'll just do it once or twice a day then so it can dry up in between mistings. And maybe I should let in a lot of dry air in the circulation to make the drying happen faster as well. How humid are your tanks? I was under the impression that anywhere between 70% and 100% was good, but maybe it's more like 70-85% then?

It's nice to hear that they're out and about. How about breeding, do you get tadpoles in the bromeliads or does it require film canisters? Would they be able to take care of the tadpoles on their own?

Generally, I aim for around 75% humidity, within the tanks there'll be spots that are more and less moist/humid.

I have a misting system that goes for 30 seconds in the morning and then 15 seconds in the afternoon, I have a 2" strip of ventilation on my tanks. (misting and ventilation information are not transferable between people as the location of your house, location of the tank within the house, etc. all impact how humid it stays in the tank).

I haven't had any breeding yet, but I've only had them since March, and don't know if I actually have both sexes.

 

[Encyclia]

I don't know where the information about dart frogs liking a wet enclosure is coming from, but it's likely not from experienced keepers. Most dart frog species in the wild don't hang out next to streams and don't live in extremely wet habitats. Water features make the whole tank too wet, especially one as small as yours. The open water and the waterfall are not helpful to your frogs and really just create a moist substrate where the frogs have wet feet all the time. Humidity should be closer to 60-80%. Again, sorry to have bad news, but if you want to do what's best for your frogs, dry things out and lose the waterfall and open water. You are already almost too small for a dart frog vivarium. With the water, it's just that much worse. Please continue to ask questions as they come up!

Mark

 

[Tostra]

I know that people don't like water features much. I won't get rid of it, as the tank is pretty much built around it, but I can definitely work at making the whole thing less humid. I've been thinking of covering the water with some larger plants growing out of it as well, so maybe that would add some dry walking area back in. There is no wet substrate because I used gravel for the water feature, so they won't get wet feet unless they step into the water.
I'll see if I can find a hygrometer and put in there, but I'd say I have quite good control over the humidity with my ventilation system. I can keep the hummidity all the way up if I want, but I can also allow air into the enclosure and dry it out quite a bit. I live in Denmark, so the air outside the tank is pretty dry.

That's not very long, no. But they've adapted quickly then if they're already out and about. Good to hear
Does anyone else know if amazonica can breed in just bromeliads rather than film canisters?

 

[fishingguy12345]

Yes, they will readily use bromeliads,.

 

[Broseph]

Title of thread: Beginner advice on Ranitomeya setup

I know that people don't like water features much. I won't get rid of it

Good luck, OP.

 

[Tostra]

Are water features really that bad or is it just that it's a waste of space and therefore stupid in small setups? I've seen plenty of water feature frog vivariums where the frogs to my beginner eyes look to be quite happy. But maybe they are larger tanks where the water feature is simply avoided by the frogs, and then they still have plenty of room. I can't say of course.

I really don't want to seem stubborn wanting to keep my water. But it's pretty permanently in there, so getting rid of it isn't easy. Also, I quite like it myself, but if I am to get frogs, their preferences should be more important than mine of course.

Nice to hear that the bromeliads are enough. Next thing is if they will take care of the tadpoles, but it sounds like amazonicas are actually better for me, even if they aren't as bold Just because they are less noisy, not as shy as I thought and maybe because they don't breed quite as easily as it sounds like the imitators will.
Would you get a trio or a pair of them? I have found a place that sells adults, so I may be able to get what I want.

 

[fishingguy12345]

Are water features really that bad or is it just that it's a waste of space and therefore stupid in small setups? I've seen plenty of water feature frog vivariums where the frogs to my beginner eyes look to be quite happy. But maybe they are larger tanks where the water feature is simply avoided by the frogs, and then they still have plenty of room. I can't say of course.



I really don't want to seem stubborn wanting to keep my water. But it's pretty permanently in there, so getting rid of it isn't easy. Also, I quite like it myself, but if I am to get frogs, their preferences should be more important than mine of course.



Nice to hear that the bromeliads are enough. Next thing is if they will take care of the tadpoles, but it sounds like amazonicas are actually better for me, even if they aren't as bold Just because they are less noisy, not as shy as I thought and maybe because they don't breed quite as easily as it sounds like the imitators will.

Would you get a trio or a pair of them? I have found a place that sells adults, so I may be able to get what I want.

Water features are a waste of space for virtually all species of dart frogs, and anecdotedly they don't tend to look very good after a year or so of use.

You could effectively get rid of the water aspect in your tank by simply not running water on the drip wall/water feature and letting it dry out instead.

If you have the ability to choose the sexes of the frogs then I would 100% only get a male/female pair. I only have the group of 3 to try to get a pair.

 

[Tostra]

I know that I can simply turn off the water circulation. But then I have a wasted corner of the setup that I would almost want to redo the background of and no false bottom in the corner. Of course, if it really does bother the frogs, that's better than leaving it on. It does suck though...
To my defence, I was actually told somewhere else that the water feature wasn't such a bad idea, but I guess you shouldn't listen to everyone who are experienced. They may just have done it wrong for a long time

 

[Broseph]

Are water features really that bad or is it just that it's a waste of space and therefore stupid in small setups? I've seen plenty of water feature frog vivariums where the frogs to my beginner eyes look to be quite happy. But maybe they are larger tanks where the water feature is simply avoided by the frogs, and then they still have plenty of room. I can't say of course.

I really don't want to seem stubborn wanting to keep my water. But it's pretty permanently in there, so getting rid of it isn't easy. Also, I quite like it myself, but if I am to get frogs, their preferences should be more important than mine of course.

The biggest problem I see with water features in almost any sized vivarium, is that water wicks via capillary action. This is a physical property of water that is nearly impossible to fight in a naturalist set up.

Moving... even trickling water will splash and creep it's way across and saturate almost every element in a vivarium. A saturated vivarium will not allow a frog to thermoregulate via evaporative cooling.

Also, wet + organics = bacteria, some of which are opportunistic. Living creatures encounter opportunistic bacteria all the time. In fact, it's growing on you right now. If a frog gets a scratch or abrasion, AND it is weak because it can't thermoregulate, AND the populations of bacteria are inflated due to environmental conditions, you've got a sick frog on your hands that probably won't recover.

Like @fishingguy said; just don't "use" the water feature. Let it dry up. Problem solved.


I mentioned earlier that 35x35x50 cm is a pretty small tank, and ill advised for a first experience. That said, and I might catch heat for this, I could see myself putting a pair (absolutely no more) of amazonica in there IF

1. The tank was made to maximize useable space. (search the board for "useable space")

2. I could guarantee a thermal and moisture gradient.

3. There weren't any places the pair could raise additional frogs. Sorry. There's no room for more frogs in a viv that small.

Like I said in another thread. Even if you think the frogs will "get along" and you don't care that they won't display "normal behavior" due to overcrowding... A viv that small will build up a lot more frog poop than the system can process.

 

[Socratic Monologue]

I mentioned earlier that 35x35x50 cm is a pretty small tank, and ill advised for a first experience. That said, and I might catch heat for this, I could see myself putting a pair (absolutely no more) of amazonica in there IF

1. The tank was made to maximize useable space. (search the board for "useable space")

2. I could guarantee a thermal and moisture gradient.

I keep breeding pairs (paired off before stuffing them in there) of imitators in that size viv. Here are the details:

The room (a dedicated herp room in the basement) is heated and air conditioned to frog-suitable temps, and humidity is corrected year round. I also spend 1-4 hours a day in there throughout the day, each day. The vivs have no wasted space, and I make very little attempt to add to their aesthetic appeal (i.e. I avoid putting anything in there that isn't there for the benefit of the frogs -- no water feature, no moss, no background). I also attempt to adjust the lighting (dimmable) and misting (minimally automated with additional misting by hand as needed) to suit the frogs, and if plants die, the plants die.

Even with all that, these are really, really small vivs.

There simply isn't room in a viv that size for even one thing (decor, husbandry technique, environmental parameters) that is human-centered. Water features and other space-wasters and habitat-screwer-uppers should be considered only in bigger vivs (>36" long) if at all.

 

[Tostra]

Okay, thanks for those replies. I am quite familiar with capillary action and have done my very best to keep water from soaking into the substrate. I do have one area that will be wet on the bckground, but otherwise the substrate and background is definitely dry enough. You may not believe it, but I've had it running for a good while, and I can see that it is definitely dry enough for frogs. It's actually been a problem for me, as I originally wanted to use some plants that wouldn't thrive because the area dried out.
But anyway, I am considering turning off the waterfall, don't worry. I may keep it as a fogger instead so it has some use, even though I find cold mist waterfalls a little gimmicky.
The question is, would I be able to keep my gravel area if it's covered in plants? I'm worried that they may get scratched, but covering it up will be problematic.
The first two points, control of humidity and usable space, I'm quite confident that I have under control. Of course I have the bromeliads which is a breeeding spot, but I wouldn't mind having to fish out the eggs and raise tadpoles elsewhere. I did really want a breeding pair in there, but I can see how more than two is probably overkill. I'm not sure if the substrate couldn't handle the waste, but they would be forced quite close to each other with three or more frogs in there.

Say I removed the water feature and had only a pair in the setup, making it good enough for frogs even though it could have been better... I would still like a few more opinions on imitator/amazonica, even though breeding isn't so important now. Are they pretty bold in other vivariums too? Do anyone have them in a living room and know if they are disturbed by people moving around?

 

[Socratic Monologue]

All my thumbs (imis, sirensis, vanzolinii) go into hiding when there is much action outside the viv other than the only person in my house who knows how to approach a viv (me ). Of those three, though, the imis are boldest by a factor of ten at least.

Imitator tads morph large and can be pulled out of the parents' viv pretty early; that's how I do it, anyway. Amazonicas do not egg feed tads in any sort of simple fashion (officially, they can egg feed if there is an extra female around, but this is as observed in the wild and should not be counted on in such a marginal space), though folks have reported froglets making it somehow. I wouldn't recommend that version of what some incorrectly call 'letting nature take its course', since froglets can and do turn out stunted or deformed from nutritional deficiencies if not intentionally fed by parent or keeper.

Is it an option to run the little waterfall setup as a plant-only terrarium, and set up a slightly larger viv with the needs of the frog species of your choice in mind? It would sure be better for the frogs, and you'd get your waterfall, too.

 

[fishingguy12345]

Is it an option to run the little waterfall setup as a plant-only terrarium, and set up a slightly larger viv with the needs of the frog species of your choice in mind? It would sure be better for the frogs, and you'd get your waterfall, too.

This is a great idea.

I have a tank that's only for growing plants. I probably spend as much time looking at that tank as any one of the frogs' tanks