[Peekskillfrogger]

Hi guys Im brand new to the forum and fairly new to frog keeping, though I've kept reef tanks for a long time so I am familiar with the level of care required to keep a healthy miniature ecosystem. Im actually breaking down an sps tank atm in order to start a 65 gallon pdf viv. I know that most froggers are against keeping diff species in the same viv. but I have read several testimonies of people keeping auratus and variabalis together in larger vivariums.

I would like to keep a pair of variablis and a pair of bronze auratus in the 65 gal. If this is a really bad idea please let me know. If I cant do this then I would be happy with 4 variabalis. I plan on getting mated pairs either way to minimize female-female or male-male aggression.

Am I way off base thinking I could mix the two species? I would keep them in 20L's in pairs but I have the tank already and I really want to do a larger viv. I know mixing morphs is really frowned upon in this hobby but I really want some different colors in the tank and I dont plan on selling juvs anyway so diluting the bloodlines isnt really a concern to me.


Please Please Please help me out here. This is going to be a long term project and I am in no rush to get the frogs. I am going to plant the viv. seed with springtails and wait until moss has covered the ghostwood and the tank is well cycled before adding frogs. I would really like to get some different colors in the tank whether its a mix of species or morphs. variabalisAt the end of the day all i care about is that the frogs are healthy and the vivarium does well, so if that means just keeping a single species then so be it.

Thanks in advance! I look forward to being a part of this community and this fascinating hobby!

 

[Dendroguy]

As long as they have a big enough tank with plenty of plants,they should do good,considering that variabilis is a thumbnail

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

Thanks thats good to know...

What about variabalis with ventrimaculata? Its my understanding that the latter is more arboreal and with a heavily planted 65 gal i think an established pair of each should have room to claim their own territories right? Im looking to get mated pairs to reduce the likelihood of crossbreeding, but since this is my first foray into thumbnails I wanna do it right.

 

[Dendroguy]

I wouldn't mix vents and varis yet

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

crossbreeding?

 

[Mapp]

In general, the rule to mixing is "If you have to ask, don't do it."
There are many things that can come about with a multispecies tank that are both harmful to the inhabitants of the tank and to the hobby in general.
While I don't have first hand experience with mixed tanks, but there's a load of information on here on why NOT to do it on here. Just use the search feature and look up "Mixing". It will only take you a few days to read all the threads! ahaha
I'm not trying to scare you off, just to help push you in the right direction. And just think about it. You'd get an excuse to set up two vivs!
Here are some good threads to look at:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html]Multispecies Reference Page
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/70226-without-your-help-i-have-mix-my-frogs-socal-keepers.html]Recent thread on mixing
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/69995-mixing-species-help.html] This thread has some good links in it
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/27177-hybrids-poll.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/68908-what-deal-mixing-frogs.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/31709-mixing-morphs.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38335-crossbreeds-update.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/44398-why-inter-breeding-so-bad.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...-accidental-hybrid-inter-breeding-update.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/56009-mixing-can-done-tons-pictures.html

Dendroguy, I'm no expert, as I've only been In the hobby for a little under a year, so most of what I know isn't from personal experience. I would imagine that would be the same case for you too. So why you're openly advocating the mixing of species, something that CLEARLY carries a negative stigma in this hobby, is a little beyond me. Please, think about your advice before you give it.

 

[james67]

in the case of mixed species enclosures a 65 gal tank is tiny. "larger" enclosures are those into the multiple hundreds of gallons.

bottom line, NOT a good idea. go back and look at those threads and look at the people suggesting and supporting mixed enclosures. i think you'll find that they are overwhelmingly composed of new members who dont know their @ss from their elbows (as far as darts are concerned).

pick a frog you like and stick with it. if you want 2 different species/ locales (morphs) make 2 tanks, soon enough you'll be like myself and many others trying to squeeze another rack full of tanks in somewhere, anywhere. im currently at 21 enclosures (not including breeding or incubation chambers, or QT tanks) its certainly an addiction, and half the fun is building more tanks.

james

 

[Ben Wehr]

I have a really nice 65gal viv with a pair of Almirante Pumilios, a three tincs, and an orange terribilis. The larger frogs are still young and so I'm watching for agression. I don't follow the non mixing of morphs personally and I like to see a variety of frogs in one viv. But, knowing that female tincs can get aggressive I'm always looking for the bully and will separate if needed. Another thing about the three different tinc morphs that needs to be stated is that if there is ever any offspring they will go into my own private collection or long term displays that I maintain myself.

If I wanted a biotope specific tank though I could have put the pair of pumilios which I love btw in with a single morph of auratus and been very well pleased.

Speaking of vents though, I have another tank with a 2.1 vent trio. Thats 2 males and 1 female with four orange terribs. Biotope specific for this might be luecs and vents.

Space with lots of foliage, ample food, and a close eye is key.

 

[srrrio]

Space with lots of foliage, ample food, and a close eye is key.

Aside from about 100 other arguments. What is a close eye? Does one spend 12 hours watching. I really don't think so. It can be quite amazing how fast a frog can go downhill. Also quite common for them to just disappear. That is ok you can just get a new one.

Keep pushing that envelope for the most wow factor. Go boys go.

Sally

 

[james67]

I have a really nice 65gal viv with a pair of Almirante Pumilios, a three tincs, and an orange terribilis. The larger frogs are still young and so I'm watching for agression. I don't follow the non mixing of morphs personally and I like to see a variety of frogs in one viv. But, knowing that female tincs can get aggressive I'm always looking for the bully and will separate if needed. Another thing about the three different tinc morphs that needs to be stated is that if there is ever any offspring they will go into my own private collection or long term displays that I maintain myself.

If I wanted a biotope specific tank though I could have put the pair of pumilios which I love btw in with a single morph of auratus and been very well pleased.

Speaking of vents though, I have another tank with a 2.1 vent trio. Thats 2 males and 1 female with four orange terribs. Biotope specific for this might be luecs and vents.

Space with lots of foliage, ample food, and a close eye is key.

are you trying to push this thread into an nonconstructive and argumentative area? it really seems like it. your mixing pumilio with tincs and terribs in a 65? thats awful! i can only imagine how stressed your frogs are. i can only hope your openness in this thread illustrates to potential sellers why you are an AWFUL candidate for purchasing frogs. im sure the people who you got those frogs from would be disappointed to say the least.

the biggest issue is your apparent lack of concern for the animals and their well being. ALL vivs are far from being biotopic, so thats not a valid argument.

im sure this will get turned around as "oh james67 is a jerk, and he doesnt understand" but understand this... what your doing is no different (in my eyes) than, for instance, dog fighting. its all about your amusement and the health of the animals be damned.

and thats all i'll say about that.
james

 

[Baltimore Bryan]

Hi guys Im brand new to the forum and fairly new to frog keeping, though I've kept reef tanks for a long time so I am familiar with the level of care required to keep a healthy miniature ecosystem. Im actually breaking down an sps tank atm in order to start a 65 gallon pdf viv. I know that most froggers are against keeping diff species in the same viv. but I have read several testimonies of people keeping auratus and variabalis together in larger vivariums.
The key here might be larger vivariums. As James pointed out, when it comes to mixing, 65 gallons is not really that big. I wouldn't try it personally, it just is too small in my opinion to have enough niches to keep both species happy and away from each other.
I would like to keep a pair of variablis and a pair of bronze auratus in the 65 gal. If this is a really bad idea please let me know. If I cant do this then I would be happy with 4 variabalis. I plan on getting mated pairs either way to minimize female-female or male-male aggression.
If you mean that you will keep all four variabilis in the 65 gallon, getting "mated pairs" won't help with aggression since they are not monogamous and breed with whichever frogs they want. However, I have not ever had a problem with variabilis or vents being aggressive, and I don't think you would have any problem with even more than 4 variabilis in the 65 regardless of what sex they are.
Am I way off base thinking I could mix the two species? I would keep them in 20L's in pairs but I have the tank already and I really want to do a larger viv. I know mixing morphs is really frowned upon in this hobby but I really want some different colors in the tank and I dont plan on selling juvs anyway so diluting the bloodlines isnt really a concern to me.
In this case I think the fear of "diluting bloodlines" isn't as applicable as with scenarios where people mix two frogs of the same species but different locales. In this case, these species are unlikely (I don't even know if it is possible) to hybridize, but if you take care of these frogs, you will be getting plenty of offspring eventually, so I always have some skepticism when people say they would keep all offspring when they could be getting hundreds of babies.

Please Please Please help me out here. This is going to be a long term project and I am in no rush to get the frogs. I am going to plant the viv. seed with springtails and wait until moss has covered the ghostwood and the tank is well cycled before adding frogs. I would really like to get some different colors in the tank whether its a mix of species or morphs. variabalisAt the end of the day all i care about is that the frogs are healthy and the vivarium does well, so if that means just keeping a single species then so be it.
I definitely don't suggest mixing different morphs or closely related species (i.e. vents and variabilis) as this brings outcrossing and hybridizing into the picture. I know how it is to come from the reef hobby where you have a small "piece of the reef" with fish from all over the world and a variety of colorful corals from anywhere in one glass box, but in this hobby the majority keep it to a single species, single locale. It may seem boring, but if you stay in it long enough it will probably seem unnatural to mix. You can get lots of different colors with the plant selections, though
Thanks in advance! I look forward to being a part of this community and this fascinating hobby!
One thing that you could look into, if you really want to see different colors in the 65 gallon, would be Bastimentos pumilio. I would recommend you start off with an easier frog (maybe auratus, then variabilis, then these) but the neat thing about them is that they naturally occur with a variable colored population. Reds, oranges, yellow, white, greenish, even blue, can and should be mixed to replicate nature.

Hope that helps,
Bryan

 

[Ben Wehr]

What is a close eye?

a lot of noticable aggression comes during feeding but she's right, if a frog just seems like it's not one of the group and is smaller or thinner than take it out. Frogs can go down hill fast is right so if you do want to do risking groups be well prepaired to take a frog out quick if needed. Note though, that taking a frog out of one tank and putting it into another can be as much or more stressfull than the situation it was in especially if some beefy momma frog has been body grinding it all day.

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

I'm not looking to start a fight or even a debate on the viability of mixing species... if its a bad idea i wont do it.

I am a beginner when it comes to keeping pdf's, but I learn fast and Im comfortable taking on a challange provided theres information to be had, but I also dont want to bite off more than i can chew.

Would a group of imitators be better to start of with than variabilis? It seems like there is a great deal of intrapopulational variation with imitator sp. which would give me the different colors I am looking for and I have heard they do well in groups... any thoughts on say 4-6 imitators in a 65 gal?

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

Bryan thanks for all the info. Even in my reef I only keep species from australia so I'm really not a fan of just slamming different species together from all over the place... Ill def look into pumillio. Is it just Bastimentos than can be kept together or is it all the different morphs of pumillio that can be kept together? I wouldnt plan on rearing the young anyway, so I assumed most would be eaten.

The more I read, the more I find myself drawn to imitator sp. They seem like a bold, active frog and the colors of the Tarapoto are near indistinguishable from variabilis (close enough for me anyway). There seems to be a lot of intrapopulation variation in the Chazuta and Varadero strains. I plan on getting the frogs from understory and Im sure if i asked them for some different varients of the same strain they would be willing to oblige. Is it possible to keep different regional variations of imitator sp. together or would it lead to the same hybridization issues? It seems as though the origin of many of the imitators available today is a little blurry anyway.

 

[evolvstll]

a lot of noticable aggression comes during feeding but she's right, if a frog just seems like it's not one of the group and is smaller or thinner than take it out. Frogs can go down hill fast is right so if you do want to do risking groups be well prepaired to take a frog out quick if needed. Note though, that taking a frog out of one tank and putting it into another can be as much or more stressfull than the situation it was in especially if some beefy momma frog has been body grinding it all day.

So does 'keeping a close eye' mean that you know there is going to be aggression and you are keeping your fingers crossed. Good luck with that. More than likely

Keeping offspring? There have been some knock em out threads regarding Troys offsping in this regards. It has been demonstrated 'I am keeping them' is not a valid argument. Neither is I will get them into responsible hands, do a thread search. The responsible thing to do is to not put that situation together in the first place.

 

[james67]

Bryan thanks for all the info. Even in my reef I only keep species from australia so I'm really not a fan of just slamming different species together from all over the place... Ill def look into pumillio. Is it just Bastimentos than can be kept together or is it all the different morphs of pumillio that can be kept together? I wouldnt plan on rearing the young anyway, so I assumed most would be eaten.

The more I read, the more I find myself drawn to imitator sp. They seem like a bold, active frog and the colors of the Tarapoto are near indistinguishable from variabilis (close enough for me anyway). There seems to be a lot of intrapopulation variation in the Chazuta and Varadero strains. I plan on getting the frogs from understory and Im sure if i asked them for some different varients of the same strain they would be willing to oblige. Is it possible to keep different regional variations of imitator sp. together or would it lead to the same hybridization issues? It seems as though the origin of many of the imitators available today is a little blurry anyway.

in the responsible PDF world a single tank houses a single locale of a species.
for instance R. imitator 'tarapoto' should be kept ONLY with R. imitator 'tarapoto' mixing locales is even more frowned upon than mixing separate species. the reason is that we try very hard to keep the natural variations in tact. not only for aesthetic and moral reasons, but also because the offspring can develop issues from outcrossing which can have serious long term health effects. its also frowned upon because offspring of mixed locale origin are easily leaked into the hobby and can pollute otherwise pure lines of frogs.

and as far as pumilio, they WILL breed and offspring WILL survive, they arent "eaten". most of us pumilo keeping hobbyists simply find fully formed miniature versions of the adults hopping around the tank. the adults raise offspring through metamorphasis w/o any help from keepers. this isnt exclusive and MOST darts take care of offspring to some degree.

james

 

[james67]

if imitators interest you, the bajo huallaga locale is extremely variable

look at the bottom of this page and you'll see what i mean:
Dendrobates.org - Ranitomeya imitator

james

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

James-

What I waas getting at is that cetain lines of imitator seem to have a lot of variation within that line ie. Varadero, chazuta etc.

So if I wanted to keep a tank of 4-6 Varadero it is possible that those frogs will not be identical. I have a pair of cobalt tincs atm and although I was assured by the guys at black jungle that they are both suriname cobalt tincs they look quite diff. from one another.

as far as thumbs go would imitator sp. be a good species to start with? I have no problem keeping a group from a single lineage, Id just choose a lineage that has some variation within that regional morph.

I understand the desire of hobbyists to preserve regional strains from the point of view of maintaining genetics for sale/trade purposes, but I dont understand the moral arguement I saw mentioned. It is extremely unlikely that any of the frogs bred in the US will ever make there way back to the wilds of South America and even less likely they would survive.

The only true moral arguement would be for leaving these frogs in the jungle where they can breed and pass on their genetics or die as nature sees fit. Any breeding facilitated by man is a perversion of of evolution. Frogs that would probably have died in the wild for w/e reason be it a genetic defect that makes them more vulnerable to predation, or disease, or interspecies competition etc survive and pass along their dna in captivity distorting the natural processes that determine a species' evolutionary path.

Obviously noone on this site can really make that arguement since all of us keep these frogs in glass boxes isolated and thousands of miles from their point of origin, but I do understand from a collector's point of view why you would want to preserve a lineage, but its not for some altruistic purpose, its for the same reason that you dont stick a mickey mantle rookie card in your bicycle spokes!


so anyway lol... are imitator sp. good thumbs to start off with?

 

[Peekskillfrogger]

WOW James!!! Thanks thats exactly what I was looking for. Now the trick is going to be finding the different varients and verifying their provinance.

Do you know anyone actively breeding them?

 

[james67]

yes, imitators are good beginner thumbnails IMO.

contact mark at understory, he works with all the imitator locales we both mentioned and is a wealth of knowledge (as is his wife) they will be able to better help you asses whats just right for you.

james