[Ed]

Would it be a fair assumption that these frogs NEED space?

Has anybody ever set up 2 LARGE vivs side by side, one being strictly vegetation and hides, etc.(standard viv most of us use), and one being a streamside viv with a heavy emphasis on water quality, spacial needs, and landscaping? The frogs transfered seasonally(when females become gravid)?

The point in two seperate vivs is the elimination of having to deal with keeping the water clean in the pool and the return. The other viv(streamside) would be set up with the complete goal of providing good water quality...

JBear

They don't utilize the stream during non-breeding seasons and aren't territorial (other than complaining when another frog walks on thier sleeping perch) out side of the breeding season so I'm not sure why there is a jump to requiring a large enclosure (particularly when it isn't necessary in other Atelopus). Basically from what we can tell, the issue with successful reproduction has a lot to do with
1) how the toads were handled during collection
2) how they were handled before export
3) how they were handled post import but before they get to the hobbyist.

Even much larger Atelopus like zeteki do not require a large enclosure to breed (zeteki have been repeatedly bred in 20 gallon long enclosures as well as larger enclosures).

In prior imports, toads that died within a relatively short period of time after import were found on necropsy to lack fat reserves. This appears to be one of the big issues with success with Atelopus in captivity particularly when compared with the success with A. zeteki and A. varius by institutions (since those toads were collected, kept clean, fed etc (in fact. A. zeteki deposited fertile eggs in one of the plastic bags during the flight back into the US.

Ed

 

[Ed]

Moving on to the real questions I have... If they are spotty in existence why should we be collecting them?

I don't think there is currently any evidence that they are truly spotty in existence or rare. (I'm surprised to see the spotty distribution as a conservation argument given that other species that have spotty distributions are collected without a second thought (O. pumilio, D. tinctorius, D. auratus (for example)). The problem is that the males and females are distributed away from the streams during the non-breeding season with a much further range for the females. During the breeding season, the males and females (if mature and having appropriate fat reserves) migrate to the streams to breed but they don't all show up at once. Instead there is a transient population where the males that lose enough weight are displaced from the stream and the females only stay long enough to deposit eggs. This results in the males being distributed along the breeding sites in the streams with the occasional female showing up showing a highly skewed sex ratio and only a small portion of the population being represented at any one time.

There have been a number of prior cases of egg deposition by this and other species but outside of A. zeteki and A. varius there has been poor success but a lot of that can be traced back to how the toads were handled before and during import and post import. Atelopus tadpoles have little tolerance for issues with water quality and do not graze in the same manner as other tadpoles. They are adapted to feeding on diatoms and other aufwuchs found on stones in the streams and when housed in a tank, do not feed on the sides, bottom or off the surface like many other tadpoles will. What they found with zeteki and varius that they could rear tadpoles by making a paste of a high quality fish food, and smearing that onto round stones which were then placed into the tank. Acceptance of this method ranges from between 20-80% of a clutch and can vary widely between clutches from the same parents.

In A. spumarius hoogmoedi, females often have such poor fat reserves when they arrive in country they can die when attempting to get them to deposit eggs but if they are not bred, then they can retain the eggs (which are not reabsorbed) and which can form adhesions to the surrounding tissues resulting in the death of the female. (see picture at bottom of this occuring with a female A. zeteki). The other problem is that the females can spontaneously prolapse the eggs. Often there are problems with breeding since the females want to lay the eggs in a dark space under stones and a lack of these spots can result in egg retention in the females with the above noted consequences.

There is also some bad information floating around about these toads which has complicated thier care and reproduction.. specifically that these toads will deposit thier clutch into small bodies of water like soda bottles (which ignores the fact that thier clutches run into the hundreds of tadpoles and require highly oxygenated water...). This resulted in some people ignoring thier needs and attempting to breed them like many dendrobatid frogs.


Some comments,

Ed

 

[Ed]

Ed, you had mentioned the keepers of Atelopus had taken "algae" rocks from streams and used that as a food source. I did the same thing for my Tinc tads and was roundly criticized(not by you or any other namable person-It was quite a while ago...), why, if this is an accepted method for feeding tads institutionally, was I made to believe I all but killed them? In fact, they did quite well while I had them, metamorphed on time, and all but 1 was perfectly healthy(the 1 had SLS). Is this method of feeding advisable to your standards, or was it a desperate plight to save a rare species? All my thanks!

It was to some extent a desperate plight since they had planned to scale up the growth of diatoms when they got back but the toads took that idea out of thier hands...

It was also before there was any real idea on the scope of the threats of novel pathogens and parasites was understood..
In some cases, the case can still be made for it, as the last act to try and salvage an animal but with the understanding that those animals will never be repatriated. This is a little different than the case of a D. tinctorius tadpole since the dietary needs of those animals are fairly well established and can be met with any decent grade fish food... as opposed to the risk of introducing novel pathogens/parasites...

Ed

 

[Ed]

Thank you so much, that was VERY helpful! Amazing Pic as well!

If fat reserves are a significant threat to these frogs, what are the best food options to counteract this? I understand it has more to do with the handling of the frogs during collection, exportation, and importation, but at least we could try to add food items that will contribute toward that goal? Any thoughts or insight? Thanks for all the help!

Actually the the foods sources we already have are more than sufficient. In fact the risk is in giving them too much food. When an animal (or person) has significant loss of fat reserves (and potentially muscle mass), the risk is in actually feeding them at all. This is because you put the animal at risk for refeeding syndrome which causes the animal to crash and die... The reason is because at a certain point, the animal begins to draw on the reserves inside the cells to maintain metabolic processes. When the animal is fed the risk is that the transportation of the sugars and fats into the cells depletes the ion levels in the circulating volume below critical leves resulting in death.

As a result, the animals really should be fed small meals (in reptiles and amphibians no more than 1/2 of the calories needed to sustain the standard metabolic rate) every day. Offering more than that is a significant risk. With the animals in the imports, the decision has to be made to try and get eggs and hope the female(s) do not die or feed them small meals until they are established and risk that resulting in the eggs forming adhesions (which kills the female) or prolapses the eggs and dies..

I suspect that once the first captive bred ones are reared, they should be as easy to breed as zeteki or varius.

When I first read about Bumble Bee Toads, they were considered a challenge in regards to breeding, but as more people worked with them, it has been an easier task, that's what I meant...

JBear

Other than the small size of the metamorphs, Seth Doty worked out how to breed them years ago (in the imports before, during and after 2004) (and before that Alex Sens bred them (back in the mid 1990s).... and it followed a fairly simple formula. Many of the reproductions this year were from animals that were partially or fully cycled in the wild, so future reproductions of those animals will tell more of a tale.

Ed

 

[Ed]

I was quite largely devoted to Sals and Newts for a long time, and only read what would now be considered out of date material. I am refferencing "Barron's: Frogs, Toads and Treefrogs". In that book, if I am not mistaken, the author has yet to solve the breeding riddle of Bumble Bee Toads. That was what I meant.

JBear

Salamanders and caecilians are high on my list of favorite amphibians, unfortunately I had to down size. Someday, I'll be getting back into them.

Ed

 

[Ed]

I'd post a list but I don't want to hijack..

Ed

 

[Ed]

Ed is totally right... I drove this one off topic....

Are Atelopus climbers when not by the streamside? I have always heard anecdotal comments of them being strewn across the mossy boulders in the splash zone of a stream, but no one talks about the habitat they occupy the majority of the year.

All my thanks!

JBear

I sent the pm.

They are known to climb up into shrubs (to more than a meter to sleep out on leaves or into axils). The A. zeteki I worked with in one enclosure would climb more than 24 inches to squeeze into the axils of a bromeliad to sleep.
If another Atelopus disturbs the perch to climb past they can make a warning call.

Ed

 

[Ed]

What are they eating primarily and supplementally at the streamside? What are they eating primarily and supplementally in the forested habitat? This info could greatly influence our ability to fascilitate seasonal variation, and(potentially) build needed fatty reserves to sustain a breeding project, IMHO.

Thanks as always!

JBear

It is way easier and simpler to just control the amount of food fed to the toads. There is no indication that the variety in the diet provided to captive specimens is insufficient for the needs of the toads. The issue really comes from the fact that the trend both in institutions and the hobby is to overfeed the animals resulting in obesity.

From a nutritional standpoint, the variety of invertebrates fed to the animals isn't as important as the supplementation of those invertebrates since on analysis even widely diverse invertebrates are poor sources of vitamin A, calcium, (and vitamin D3), and to a large extent carotenoids....

Ed