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Atelopus Q&A Thread

3K views 21 replies 6 participants last post by  Afemoralis 
#1 · (Edited)
I wanted to start a new thread rather than hijack a good thread. I would appreciate it if a mod could remove the posts that were a bit astray I contributed and insert them here. I would be very grateful, and I am sorry I didn't mean to derail the conversation or hijack.

Moving on to the real questions I have... If they are spotty in existence why should we be collecting them? I am in appreciation for the hesitancy to collect more frogs on behalf of the importers/exporters. I think there are a good many people that are skilled working with these rarities, and given good husbandry, time, and patience, we(as a hobby) will be able to succeed in a much more consistent way in breeding and simply providing. Maybe they are the next "Bumble Bee Toad"...

I am highly curious about these frogs, and would welcome any and all comments regarding these beautiful frogs.

(My son calls them "Dart Toads")

All my thanks!

JBear
 
#2 ·
Would it be a fair assumption that these frogs NEED space?

Has anybody ever set up 2 LARGE vivs side by side, one being strictly vegetation and hides, etc.(standard viv most of us use), and one being a streamside viv with a heavy emphasis on water quality, spacial needs, and landscaping? The frogs transfered seasonally(when females become gravid)?

The point in two seperate vivs is the elimination of having to deal with keeping the water clean in the pool and the return. The other viv(streamside) would be set up with the complete goal of providing good water quality...

JBear
 
#4 ·
its also advised to keep males and females in separate enclosures since in many cases the females will actually travel considerable distances away from males when not breeding.

as far as, should we collect them... that pretty much a mute point, since only one species is currently collected and only from suriname. all others are protected and havent been exported for close to 8 years.

james
 
#7 ·
Moving on to the real questions I have... If they are spotty in existence why should we be collecting them?
I don't think there is currently any evidence that they are truly spotty in existence or rare. (I'm surprised to see the spotty distribution as a conservation argument given that other species that have spotty distributions are collected without a second thought (O. pumilio, D. tinctorius, D. auratus (for example)). The problem is that the males and females are distributed away from the streams during the non-breeding season with a much further range for the females. During the breeding season, the males and females (if mature and having appropriate fat reserves) migrate to the streams to breed but they don't all show up at once. Instead there is a transient population where the males that lose enough weight are displaced from the stream and the females only stay long enough to deposit eggs. This results in the males being distributed along the breeding sites in the streams with the occasional female showing up showing a highly skewed sex ratio and only a small portion of the population being represented at any one time.

There have been a number of prior cases of egg deposition by this and other species but outside of A. zeteki and A. varius there has been poor success but a lot of that can be traced back to how the toads were handled before and during import and post import. Atelopus tadpoles have little tolerance for issues with water quality and do not graze in the same manner as other tadpoles. They are adapted to feeding on diatoms and other aufwuchs found on stones in the streams and when housed in a tank, do not feed on the sides, bottom or off the surface like many other tadpoles will. What they found with zeteki and varius that they could rear tadpoles by making a paste of a high quality fish food, and smearing that onto round stones which were then placed into the tank. Acceptance of this method ranges from between 20-80% of a clutch and can vary widely between clutches from the same parents.

In A. spumarius hoogmoedi, females often have such poor fat reserves when they arrive in country they can die when attempting to get them to deposit eggs but if they are not bred, then they can retain the eggs (which are not reabsorbed) and which can form adhesions to the surrounding tissues resulting in the death of the female. (see picture at bottom of this occuring with a female A. zeteki). The other problem is that the females can spontaneously prolapse the eggs. Often there are problems with breeding since the females want to lay the eggs in a dark space under stones and a lack of these spots can result in egg retention in the females with the above noted consequences.

There is also some bad information floating around about these toads which has complicated thier care and reproduction.. specifically that these toads will deposit thier clutch into small bodies of water like soda bottles (which ignores the fact that thier clutches run into the hundreds of tadpoles and require highly oxygenated water...). This resulted in some people ignoring thier needs and attempting to breed them like many dendrobatid frogs.


Some comments,

Ed
 

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#9 ·
Thank you so much, that was VERY helpful! Amazing Pic as well!

If fat reserves are a significant threat to these frogs, what are the best food options to counteract this? I understand it has more to do with the handling of the frogs during collection, exportation, and importation, but at least we could try to add food items that will contribute toward that goal? Any thoughts or insight? Thanks for all the help!

JVK-

When I first read about Bumble Bee Toads, they were considered a challenge in regards to breeding, but as more people worked with them, it has been an easier task, that's what I meant...

JBear
 
#8 · (Edited)
Moving on to the real questions I have... If they are spotty in existence why should we be collecting them?

JBear
Hi JBear, One thing Ed didn't mention, (assuming we are talking about spumarius/hoogmoedi) this is a lowland species, and not imminently threatened by chytrid extinction as the highland species are/were. As far as I know, A. hoogmoedi are -locally- abundant. JVK

PS I don't understand "the next Bumblebee Toad" statement? JVK
 
#10 ·
Ed, you had mentioned the keepers of Atelopus had taken "algae" rocks from streams and used that as a food source. I did the same thing for my Tinc tads and was roundly criticized(not by you or any other namable person-It was quite a while ago...), why, if this is an accepted method for feeding tads institutionally, was I made to believe I all but killed them? In fact, they did quite well while I had them, metamorphed on time, and all but 1 was perfectly healthy(the 1 had SLS). Is this method of feeding advisable to your standards, or was it a desperate plight to save a rare species? All my thanks!

JBear
 
#11 ·
Ed, you had mentioned the keepers of Atelopus had taken "algae" rocks from streams and used that as a food source. I did the same thing for my Tinc tads and was roundly criticized(not by you or any other namable person-It was quite a while ago...), why, if this is an accepted method for feeding tads institutionally, was I made to believe I all but killed them? In fact, they did quite well while I had them, metamorphed on time, and all but 1 was perfectly healthy(the 1 had SLS). Is this method of feeding advisable to your standards, or was it a desperate plight to save a rare species? All my thanks!
It was to some extent a desperate plight since they had planned to scale up the growth of diatoms when they got back but the toads took that idea out of thier hands...

It was also before there was any real idea on the scope of the threats of novel pathogens and parasites was understood..
In some cases, the case can still be made for it, as the last act to try and salvage an animal but with the understanding that those animals will never be repatriated. This is a little different than the case of a D. tinctorius tadpole since the dietary needs of those animals are fairly well established and can be met with any decent grade fish food... as opposed to the risk of introducing novel pathogens/parasites...

Ed
 
#18 ·
Ed is totally right... I drove this one off topic....

Are Atelopus climbers when not by the streamside? I have always heard anecdotal comments of them being strewn across the mossy boulders in the splash zone of a stream, but no one talks about the habitat they occupy the majority of the year.

All my thanks!

JBear
 
#19 ·
Ed is totally right... I drove this one off topic....

Are Atelopus climbers when not by the streamside? I have always heard anecdotal comments of them being strewn across the mossy boulders in the splash zone of a stream, but no one talks about the habitat they occupy the majority of the year.

All my thanks!

JBear
I sent the pm.

They are known to climb up into shrubs (to more than a meter to sleep out on leaves or into axils). The A. zeteki I worked with in one enclosure would climb more than 24 inches to squeeze into the axils of a bromeliad to sleep.
If another Atelopus disturbs the perch to climb past they can make a warning call.

Ed
 
#22 · (Edited)
Not that it will really help out with regards to imports, but my experience with A. tricolor in the Andes of Southeastern Peru was that I never found adult males away from the breeding streams, and the females would wander much farther, possibly in avoidance of the males, who can be truly persistent when it comes to amplexus.

Oh and the tadpoles of A. tricolor would give even Ascaphus a run for it's money when it came to hanging on in fast flowing water.

Afemoralis
 
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