Arguments Concerning Water Features

2275 Views 38 Replies 18 Participants Last post by deboardfam, Jul 22, 2011

Jduane

Discussion Starter · Jul 21, 2011 (Edited)

Hi, i've been seeing people argue over wether or not frogs appreciate water features, and most people say it is a waste of in-tank space, i personally do not agree, in the wild, rainfall can create a ''drip wall'' that comes down and forms a pool, that frogs in turn use, many hobbyists (un)knowingly create this, in a ten gallon tank, a waterfall can take up as much as a quarter of the tanks space,when established as a mound, or ''tree'' even, but if you do it right, a water feature can take up almost NO space in the tank, a false bottom filled with water, and a pump in the back of it behind the background can make access to the pump and visibility two great combinations, whereas in a ''mound'' people say that kind of project should be not used at all, or saved for a different tank, people say that the frogs don't ''care'' or that they're "just as fine/better off without it" i do not believe this to be true, do you honestly think this is not created naturally in the wild? why shouldn't this also appear in our tanks, im sorry if you feel as if im ranting, but i am honestly tired of people posting construction journals, and you @$$holes posting blatantly "lose the water feature, ETC". if you don't agree, don't put them in your tanks, it is a simple remedy, instead of acting like teenagers, one of which i happen to be.
I hope this arises some thought into your minds, thanks, Jasper.

p.s ( im talking about large tanks)

21 - 39 of 39 Posts

frogface

· #21 · Jul 22, 2011 (Edited)

Please don't let this turn into a hate thread, the majority of you are adults, Handle yourselves Like one.

Heehee, I like you Jasper

eta to be on topic: I make a small pond for all of my frogs except my little brom dwelling ones. Haven't done a real water feature yet, but, I might.

Jduane

Discussion Starter · #22 · Jul 22, 2011

frogface said:
Heehee, I like you Jasper

Thank You, i know there are some ''teenagers'' on this forum, myself included, but some people are really raging

Hopefully everyone resolves there conflict.

frogface

· #23 · Jul 22, 2011

Jduane said:
Thank You, i know there are some ''teenagers'' on this forum, myself included, but some people are really raging

Hopefully everyone resolves there conflict.

I'm an old lady but I totally got you.

Reactions: 1

johnyrocks

· #24 · Jul 22, 2011

Jduane said:
Alright, what's wrong with you? first you tell me to ''watch my tone'' then you say the majority of people im calling out know more about the hobby than me?
is it because i just joined the board? stop discriminating based on my forum time if that's what you're doing. i have plenty of experience with reptiles/amphibians.

hopefully all of you will calm down on the tone thing, i just become tired of people blatantly saying ''get rid of the drip wall/etc." if it looks good and doesn't take up too much room, i honestly don't care if the frogs use it or not, as long as they have ample space it's not a problem, it adds to the tank, don't you like creating beautiful things? if you think a water feature is pointless, maybe you should keep your frogs in a shoebox with some sphagnum moss, im not trying to be harsh, but really, practice what you preach before you go on ranting about someone else's tone, i hope you get whatever problem you have with me calling people who do this sort of thing assholes, but honestly you're being one.

-Jasper.

So you have experience with reptiles and amphibians. Before I even knew what a dart frog was I had 6 years of keeping 3 kinds of geckos, reed frogs, pacman frogs, whites, red eyes, etc. but I knew nothing about darts, which is ENTIRELY different than any other branch of herp keeping.

Jduane

Discussion Starter · #25 · Jul 22, 2011

johnyrocks said:
So you have experience with reptiles and amphibians. Before I even knew what a dart frog was I had 6 years of keeping 3 kinds of geckos, reed frogs, pacman frogs, whites, red eyes, etc. but I knew nothing about darts, which is ENTIRELY different than any other branch of herp keeping.

it is not entirely different at all, they are just entirely different animals, i honestly think we should stop ranting about this thread, if you have something to add, reply, if not. don't.

Please Do Not Continue this conflict.

WendySHall

· #26 · Jul 22, 2011

Don't want involved in the arguing, but wanted to state my "experience"...

When I first started with darts, I read and read about keeping away from water features...the frogs don't need them...the frogs won't use them...they will just waste precious space...etc. My husband, however, believed differently and talked me into including a small petri dish of water in their tanks. They loved it! Now, I have petri dishes of water in all of the tanks...except the 20 longs I recently bought...I've built small ponds into the corners of them.

Reactions: 3

Jduane

Discussion Starter · #27 · Jul 22, 2011

of course the frogs won't use a waterfall or a drip wall, it just looks nice, and if it looks nice and it doesn't take up much space, there isn't really much of a problem, thank you for your constructive post, can't say the same for everyone.

deboardfam

· #28 · Jul 22, 2011

Also, to add to my earlier thoughts: This hobby, as small as it is, is extremely diverse. Wants range from pure display purposes to conservists of the species. You have some who get in it for the looks of the tank and water features and some who have a rack full of tanks with no false bottoms, sphag, leaf litter and enough to make the frog happy and breeding. Large range of individuals all trying to comment on what they like best to a person whom they have no idea of their intentions. They base the posters intentions on theirs or what they believe. Therefore several different answers for the same question and very opinionated posts. The key is how to learn to read through it and to determine your own best answer based on guidelines and opinions posted by others.

(all except for Ed of course, he is the threadstopper. I see people ask questions and all these opinions come out, then Ed answers. /end of thread)

Reactions: 2

nschmitz06

· #29 · Jul 22, 2011

I just rebuild my vivarium with a waterfall feature. ( I use an external canister filter so pump issues are not a problem and if I ever wanted to remove it its been designed to be taken out with no disturbance to the viv). I like water features, yes they look nice, and i plan on getting some tincs, although I might add alot more sand to my situation to shrink the pond area because right now I'm looking at 4hx8wx1d with a few rocks in the middle. It will be a few months before I put frogs in because I will be running little experiments like this on my tank until I know its right for the animals.

Here is my build. You will notice how many times I have changed/rebuilt area's because I am still learning on what is best for the frogs while still trying to be aesthetically pleasing. (after all the frogs live in a beautiful tropical wilderness, who says I can't have that in a glass box on my desk?)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/64671-exo-terra-24x18x18-redux-pic-heavy.html

Respect your elders, wisdom is earned thru years of patience and experience. For us younger folks its hard to hear a "no" without a "why", but if anything that encourages us to find the answers ourselves and learn. I'm 23 and have a boat load to learn about PDF's still, but its exciting and is always good to know we have so many people around on the forums willing to help.

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Reactions: 1

MrFusion

· #30 · Jul 22, 2011

Jduane said:
people say that the frogs don't ''care'' or that they're "just as fine/better off without it" i do not believe this to be true, do you honestly think this is not created naturally in the wild?

They don't care. Dart frogs have limited intelligence and can't tell the difference between rain or water features etc etc. All they're likely to care about is whether their environment is moist enough to their liking.

Reactions: 2

VicSkimmr

· #31 · Jul 22, 2011

Jduane said:
Please don't let this turn into a hate thread, the majority of you are adults, Handle yourselves Like one.

-jasper

Considering the tone of your original post, I'm not sure you really have a high ground to take.

Reactions: 2

Frogman8

· #32 · Jul 22, 2011 (Edited)

Personally the only reason I build waterfalls in my terrariums is for the purpose to maintain the humidity level.(and there beautiful to look at as well). Just think if you go on a vacation or gone for a few days,you don't have to worry about the humidity issues . Another thing our frogs are mainly captive bred(correct?) not WC so for that its not like were changing their enviornments,we've created our own little world for them . In this hobby just about all of our setups look the same. in other words our frogs will not know the difference between their wild enviornments to their new enviornments in which we have created over the years.

deboardfam

· #33 · Jul 22, 2011

LOL even the thread title... "Arguments"

Anyway... tis all good. This thread has been answered. Waiting for a mod to lock.

deboardfam

· #34 · Jul 22, 2011

Another thing our frogs are mainly captive bred(correct?) not WC so for that its not like were changing their enviornments,we've created our own little world for them . In this hobby just about all of our setups look the same. in other words our frogs will not know the difference between their wild enviornments to their new enviornments in which we have created over the years.

Wow... just wow. Natural instict?
I mean changing an animals environment they dont just adapt. I understand what your saying or what you were meaning but. I dont know. Just rubbed me the wrong way. Like... Ehh.. Nature!? Screw it lol

james67

· #35 · Jul 22, 2011

this is ridiculous.

first and foremost, you cant equate what happens in nature to your viv. does rainfall create puddles? yes (and so will a heavy misting on good size leaf litter) is your tank even remotely close in size to the territory of even a single dart of virtually ANY species? NO, so how do you justify this correlation? in a tank thats 12' cubed, a water feature would be great, but in a 10, 20, 30gallon tank they are pretty useless for most species.

you really just need to calm down and realize that your asking a group of people, who have more experience and time with the animals, to stop commenting, because you dont like what they have to say (or how they are saying it). as for the tone of responses... you have to remember that not only does everyone and their mother, want to have a water feature when they start(causing the topic to come up with great frequency) but, those with legitimate experience on the subject have to "compete" with other new keepers uninformed responses.

james

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Reactions: 3

Ed

· #36 · Jul 22, 2011

Frogman8 said:
Personally the only reason I build waterfalls in my terrariums is for the purpose to maintain the humidity level.(and there beautiful to look at as well). Just think if you go on a vacation or gone for a few days,you don't have to worry about the humidity issues . Another thing our frogs are mainly captive bred(correct?) not WC so for that its not like were changing their enviornments,we've created our own little world for them . In this hobby just about all of our setups look the same. in other words our frogs will not know the difference between their wild enviornments to their new enviornments in which we have created over the years.

If you have set the enclosure up properly and the substrate is damp, there should be no need for a water feature to increase humidity. If you have to use a water feature like this to increase the humidity, then there typically are issues with husbandry.

Argueing that because they are captive bred, they won't know the difference isn't much of a help, as they are hardwired through genetics to respond to conditions and behaviorally respond to those conditions.

Ed

Ed

· #37 · Jul 22, 2011

Running or active water systems are not "normal" habitat features for a wide variety of dendrobatids. Most dendrobatids utilize lentic or still water systems for tadpole depositions sites (this covers all still water from phytotelmata to holes in trees to puddles) so having a running water feature of any type isn't natural for the majority of dendrobatids.

There are actually a couple of real arguments (ignoring the paragraph immediately above) about using water features in the enclosures,

1) the vast majority of them result in an overly saturated substrate which is not normal to the frogs, has been anecdotally linked to infections of Mycobacterium, prevents the bacteria in the substrate from processing waste materials efficiently

2) if the water is not aerated properly it results in stagnation with potential risks to the frogs.

3) water that is added to replenish water lost through various means should be RO or distilled as otherwise salts build up in the enclosure and result in salt creep at high points where the water evaporates.

4) saturation of the substrate typically requires a more frequent breakdown of the enclosure to replace or replenish media that has compacted and isn't working well for the frogs or plants.....

If the species utilizes running water for tadpole deposition, then care is required as most running water features result in water loss into the rest of the enclosure resulting in saturated substrates with the potential risks enumerated above.

Some comments...

Ed

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boabab95

· #38 · Jul 22, 2011

Another thing our frogs are mainly captive bred(correct?) not WC so for that its not like were changing their enviornments,we've created our own little world for them . In this hobby just about all of our setups look the same. in other words our frogs will not know the difference between their wild enviornments to their new enviornments in which we have created over the years.

so i can put them in with tortoises, or in a desert habitat since they "don't know any better"???

no.

deboardfam

· #39 · Jul 22, 2011

(all except for Ed of course, he is the threadstopper. I see people ask questions and all these opinions come out, then Ed answers. /end of thread)

/Endofthread

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