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I noticed on the IUCN Red List that M. cowani is a critically-endangered species and hasn't been imported since 2003. Has anyone had success with those imported animals and produced cb offspring?

Thanks in advance, Richard.
 

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Hi Bill,

I read the other posts and it seems that the people who have them/may be breeding them want to remain "anonymus". Is there something that I'm missing here or is this yet just another game of "I got it and your not getting it"?

It would be to the detriment of the frog if it was not distributed better in the hobby.

Take care, Richard.
 

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Hi Bill,

I read the other posts and it seems that the people who have them/may be breeding them want to remain "anonymus". Is there something that I'm missing here or is this yet just another game of "I got it and your not getting it"?

It would be to the detriment of the frog if it was not distributed better in the hobby.

Take care, Richard.
No games and your not missing anything, the individual likes their privacy, does not want to be hounded by calls for the frogs, and does after establishing a group a little larger plans on placing some with people he feels would do well with them.And to be honest there is nothing wrong with a person not wanting to make his life an open book.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hopefully some zoos are working with them.
 

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From what I understand they are one of the more difficult species to breed and successes have been few and far between. This is a frog that belongs quietly in the hands of experienced Mantella keepers.
 

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Hi Tony,

I agree with the "experienced hands", but wonder about the "quietly" part. The most important part of the conservation work I do is in the sharing of efforts with other botanists in the region. I personally don't think that anonymity does anything to further the conservation of any species.

That's just my opinion, of course. Richard.
 
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Hi Tony,

I agree with the "experienced hands", but wonder about the "quietly" part. The most important part of the conservation work I do is in the sharing of efforts with other botanists in the region. I personally don't think that anonymity does anything to further the conservation of any species.

That's just my opinion, of course. Richard.
If you were one of the few people who had them would you want to deal with the constant barrage of people asking for them? I'm sure the people who have them are sharing their experiences with each other, and I'm happy to know that they are quietly working to establish the species instead of just blindly selling to the highest bidder.
 

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I know of atleast one person who is keeping them/breeding them. When I talked to him last, he mentioned staying anonymous because he didnt want to be hounded with emails and the such
 

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Is there a TMP for the species? Are the breeders working with any zoos on a real conservation project? If not, then the best they can be expected to do is manage the frog in the hobby (which isn't likely in the long-run with so few empowered to work with them).

I didn't know anonymity was a requirement for working with rare frogs.

Richard.
 

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I honestly dont know if the guy I know is or not...but no I wouldn't say a requirement, just that I understand why its the norm apparently with this species
 

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Well, I would hope that anyone working with the species might be willing to give us an update on how they are doing with them.

I have a group of Luristan Newts (N. kaiseri), a species as critically-endangered as the M. cowani. Several of the first successful breeders of these newts have written extensively on the conditions under which they had success and this open-ness has played a critical role in fostering a greater understanding of the husbandry requirement of the species in captivity.

I would imagine that anyone working successfully with this species would be happy to tell everyone how they attained the success. Given that it was the insatiable desire in the hobby to own this species that resulted in its becoming endangered in the wild (according to IUCN and Amphibiaweb), we owe it to M. cowani to be the best stewards for the species that we can be.

Just my opinions, of course. Richard.
 

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Hi Richard,

I'm not sure you can use the N. kaiseri as a comparision for the M. cowanii.. there was a lot of success with kaiseri in Europe prior to thier appearance on the US scene. In fact, there was a talk given by a European caudate enthusiast on this species at IAD in 2004...

I don't think M. cowani shows a similar pattern of success.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Hi Ed,

And the requirement for anonymity would be? Certainly seems counterproductive toward a conservation goal.

Richard.
Hi Richard,

I'm not sure you can use the N. kaiseri as a comparision for the M. cowanii.. there was a lot of success with kaiseri in Europe prior to thier appearance on the US scene. In fact, there was a talk given by a European caudate enthusiast on this species at IAD in 2004...

I don't think M. cowani shows a similar pattern of success.

Ed
 

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Well, I would hope that anyone working with the species might be willing to give us an update on how they are doing with them.

I have a group of Luristan Newts (N. kaiseri), a species as critically-endangered as the M. cowani. Several of the first successful breeders of these newts have written extensively on the conditions under which they had success and this open-ness has played a critical role in fostering a greater understanding of the husbandry requirement of the species in captivity.

I would imagine that anyone working successfully with this species would be happy to tell everyone how they attained the success. Given that it was the insatiable desire in the hobby to own this species that resulted in its becoming endangered in the wild (according to IUCN and Amphibiaweb), we owe it to M. cowani to be the best stewards for the species that we can be.

Just my opinions, of course. Richard.
Actually Richard the Cowani are most likely the victim of habitat destruction way more than the pet trade as there never were big numbers coming in that I observed when I used to get them in occasionally, they were very seasonal too, usually between dec an feb. Also I can tell you the person that I know that is currently working with them I in all honesty and many years experience could not think of anyone more qualified and a proven record of unique animal breeding success than who they are with.Richard, this one is under control, I really hope this thread don't turn into another argument thread, Bill
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'm only reporting here on what the IUCN and Amphibiaweb have to say on the subject.

Richard.
 

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Fews folks are breeding them from what remains of old imports. They are all experienced Mantella keepers and are doing their best to keep them going in the hobby. No real secret.
 

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Hi Ed,

And the requirement for anonymity would be? Certainly seems counterproductive toward a conservation goal.

Richard.
Hi Richard,

I don't see how it is productive either... I think anonymity is a neutral factor until the species is released out into the rest of the pet trade.

I'm also not sure that this qualifies as conservation... I've already touched briefly on this in a different thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...655-hybridize-not-hybridize-2.html#post573747

Ed
 

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I would love to say also that giving a bunch of offspring to a zoo would be a good idea as well but coming from a zoo background I know that most zoos don't put in the needed time for species unless someone high up says yep we should care about this. I have seen many zoos get a hoard of golden mantella and feed them only pinheads and watch as their numbers slowly fall. If someone were to send cowanii to zoos they would have to do their homework and also hope that the zoo had someone just as passionate about these frogs. For now I would say its best for the pro mantella keepers to build a good solid base before these make it mainstream.
Logan
 

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I would love to say also that giving a bunch of offspring to a zoo would be a good idea as well but coming from a zoo background I know that most zoos don't put in the needed time for species unless someone high up says yep we should care about this. I have seen many zoos get a hoard of golden mantella and feed them only pinheads and watch as their numbers slowly fall. If someone were to send cowanii to zoos they would have to do their homework and also hope that the zoo had someone just as passionate about these frogs. For now I would say its best for the pro mantella keepers to build a good solid base before these make it mainstream.
Logan
Thank you for your important input. I too have known people in various zoos and the stories I have heard are awful in somee cases. One that still sickens me is hearing how some zoos are under order to crush the eggs of Critically Endangered Radiated Tortoise( From Madg. Richard) because the zoos did not need any more of them, and cannot let these last of their kind animals go to the public. The govt and all its tentacles are a self serving money making machine when it comes to things like this, they murder for the sake of conservation countless animals, Joe Blow gets them and the govt and tentacles jump in and literally make a federal case and drain money from the "offender". sorry, an emotional subject for me.
 
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