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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was thinking about the pumillio imports, and it crossed my mind that similar projects might be in the works for other darts that we don't see often. Stuff like histros, mysteriosus, lamasi, truncatus, castaneoticus, various epipedobates, ect. Has anyone heard of anything?
 

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A lot of these (Peruvian frogs) are being worked on, see INIBICO. And the political situation in Colombia (Civil War) is what is preventing anything from coming out of Colombia. I have no clue about Ecuador, Venezuala, or the Guyanas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Why do we need imports.

ED's_Fly_Meat_Inc said:
Why do we need imports?

lamasi, truncatus, castaneoticus, various epipedobates,
These are all captive bred in the United States.
Dave
Not exactly the most common frogs, are they? And those that are here are a very small slice of the different morphs there are. And there are many epipedobates species that are not available period.
 

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The first thing that popped into my head was someone didn't want to wait in line. I don't know if this is the reasoning behind the question, don't flame me, but when asked about some of these species its because its usually rare and they want it now. Kinda sucks.

Most latin american countries no longer allow the exportation of PDFs. Surinam only allows non-dendrobates PDFs out.

If its not easy to get ahold of and was in the hobby over the years (not including the weird pseudo-legal crap from Europe) is usually because the animals are difficult to breed (eggfeeders like histos, lamasi, larger epipeds like trivis, bassleri, etc), or for most breeders they aren't worth breeding because the babies couldn't be given away (truncatus, tricolor, most smaller epipeds). This is usually do to cycles of popularity (truncs and tricolor are excellent examples) and this can actually be the demise of a species in the hobby (azureventris is a great example). This is our own stupidity, and should be learned from, not have us going back and begging for WCs. Other times the animals just are considered ugly and just never get popular (many small epipeds aren't colorful enough to be in much demand, or their CBs aren't colorful).

We have PLENTY of variety of animals in the hobby. Almost all the groups are represented in the US hobby at this point (other than "ugly" epipeds and colostethus), is there actually a NEED to have all of them in the hobby?!
 

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KeroKero said:
The first thing that popped into my head was someone didn't want to wait in line. I don't know if this is the reasoning behind the question, don't flame me, but when asked about some of these species its because its usually rare and they want it now. Kinda sucks.

Most latin american countries no longer allow the exportation of PDFs. Surinam only allows non-dendrobates PDFs out.

If its not easy to get ahold of and was in the hobby over the years (not including the weird pseudo-legal crap from Europe) is usually because the animals are difficult to breed (eggfeeders like histos, lamasi, larger epipeds like trivis, bassleri, etc), or for most breeders they aren't worth breeding because the babies couldn't be given away (truncatus, tricolor, most smaller epipeds). This is usually do to cycles of popularity (truncs and tricolor are excellent examples) and this can actually be the demise of a species in the hobby (azureventris is a great example). This is our own stupidity, and should be learned from, not have us going back and begging for WCs. Other times the animals just are considered ugly and just never get popular (many small epipeds aren't colorful enough to be in much demand, or their CBs aren't colorful).

We have PLENTY of variety of animals in the hobby. Almost all the groups are represented in the US hobby at this point (other than "ugly" epipeds and colostethus), is there actually a NEED to have all of them in the hobby?!
Sing it sister! I agree completely. The thing is that there are a lot of species and morphs that hang by a thread in the U.S. hobby because not enough serious hobbyists are breeding them to insure a stable population. In some cases the species or morph is basically being maintained by only a single person and if that person leaves the hobby or dies, there's another one gone. If everyone is scrambling for stuff we don't already have, then we are going to see a lot of species and morphs blinking in and out of the hobby because the frogs will be spread very thin among the skilled resources available to support them. How many thousands of blue jeans have been imported over the last 20 years and still we have not secured them as captive breeding population in the U.S.

I'm not against importing frogs. But I do worry that importations produce a "flavor of the month" syndrome in the hobby that diverts resources away from establishing long term sustainable captive populations.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I was simply curious about other types of rare frogs coming in. I didn't buy any almirante, and I probably wouldn't buy any of them. I prefer CB animals. Simple curiosity.

As for if there's really a need for at least some level of imports, yes I think there is. I don't want thousands of WC frogs being shipped out, but 0 level of exports isn't good either. Even with frogs that are bred in captivity, the gene pool is very small in some cases. Lots of frogs, but when they all come from the same ten original imports because they were the only ones that lived before there were current advancements in husbandry, eventually there will be problems if people keep breeding them, which I'm sure they will. People rail against line breeding for 'designer frogs', but as someone pointed out, with only three lines of lamasi in the US, you really can't help but line breed.

Would you rather the less well represented frogs or morphs die out completely when their habitat goes bye bye or have at least some in captivity? Look at the azureus for example. By all accounts, their natural habitat is a tiny area. But due to captive breeding, they will never die out (except maybe 'pure blooded frogs' by hybridization, but there's already a topic about that.)
 

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The "flavor of the month syndrome" seems to be the downfall of many species, right now the man creeks and bastis are fairly popular and any one with a few hundred dollars can get a pair, but in a few years people will be scrambling to find them and begging to get on a list for man creeks, just like the blue jeans, I'm sure brent has received numerous wait list requests. Same thing with thumbnails, eventually everybody who wants them will have them, and when they aren't the "hot" thing, people will stop breeding them, and only a few people will have them. It will take longer for that to happen because of smaller clutches, and lower success rates, but I think it will eventually happen. I remember when you couldn't give away certain frogs, tricolors for example, and you were stuck feeding 20+ froglets nobody wanted, now it takes some serious searching to find some. Hopefully people will learn from the past and keep the mancreeks around as I plan to do, along with the unpopular auratus morphs.
 

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Arklier said:
Would you rather the less well represented frogs or morphs die out completely when their habitat goes bye bye or have at least some in captivity? Look at the azureus for example. By all accounts, their natural habitat is a tiny area. But due to captive breeding, they will never die out (except maybe 'pure blooded frogs' by hybridization, but there's already a topic about that.)
I could tell you were just asking an innocent question which is why I didn't joing the thread at first. But since it had already become philosophical, then I thought I would phlosophize. But now it has gotten even more philosophical so here goes some more. First, I don't see that zero imports would exactly be bad for the hobby. It's already been said, we already have an enormous selection of frogs and many are not yet secure. So the prospect of no more imports does not really bother me at all. But I will repeat that I'm not against imports. But I view them as a luxury that the hobby should use at a pace it can absorb. We don't want to become like the rape and pillage orchidists of days past. There are also several straw man arguments that are used to defend imports as a necessity or at least not bad. Again, done right I don't think they are bad but.... New importations rarely help us bolster gene pools of captive lines. I'll just say it. The hobby in general are idiots when it comes to knowing what is a line and what is not. Without location data which is still hard to get, we treat every new import as a "line" even if it is quite probably that they were all collected from the same place. How many wild populations did these three "lines" of standard lamasii come from? One? Three? Who knows? Also, why does having only one or a few lines in the hobby mean they lack genetic diversity? A single "line" could be founded from thousands of animals. So the only way a new import can help add genetic stock to captive lines is if we can confidently link the new imports and the captive line back to the same wild population.

The argument that it is better to bring the frogs in captivity than have them go extinct in the wild is old as dirt and is full of holes. First, not all PDF that are rare in the hobby are rare in the wild. Not all PDF are in danger of going extinct. Second, the way we collect, import, and maintain PDF in the hobby does NOTHING for preserving the frogs as a wild species. By this I mean that the frogs in our vivaria are not EVER going to be used to restore populations of frogs to the wild. I could fill several pages with what is required to establish a captive breeding population for conservation. In fact, I have in the past. But for now, I'll just say that our hobby lines do not come close to meeting the criteria needed to establish a conservation gene pool and fresh imports aren't going to help that. Finally, there is the argument I made in my last post. Flooding the hobby with a plethora of new morphs and species can actually work against getting the frogs we already have solidly established.

So I hope we never see a flood tide of new types of frogs coming into the hobby. What I would rather see is a very slow but steady rate of introductions of new types. That way the selection in the hobby can grow along with the hobby itself. What I would like to see is for new types to come in at about the same rate as new froggers develop the experience and skills needed to care for them. Too many frogs have become popular and then disapeared in the hobby because people wanted to move on to something new. New is not bad but if everybody is trying to get something that nobody else has, then there is a problem.
 

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i really could care less about new frogs comming in at this point. there are so many gorgeous frogs already here. i have a huge selection to choose from already! i dont have a huge collection and there are many others out there that dont as well. us newbies have alot to choose from right now.... importation of new species or anything for that matter has not crossed my mind. i visited greg and amanda sihler and after seeing everything they have... i could never ask for new species or imports cause i know there are alot of other experienced keepers just like them holding the hobby together. i thank all the people working hard to keep this hobby going and for sharing all the knowledge they have learned though trial and error, hard work and dedication. i would rather support this than importation. if people are wanting to bring new stuff to the hobby.. work on successfully reproducing the rare frogs we already have that arnt yet available.i would work on that before getting new species into the u.s.
 

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Lydia said:
Brent, could you post a list of sp/morphs that aren't yet established in the us?
There's no way I can come close to a complete list but here are some that come to mind. All pumilio morphs except bastimentos and bri bri, seem to still be unestablished as stable captive populations in the U.S. The green Shepard's Island and the Almirante/Man Creek seem to be well on their way to being established. There are several other morphs in the hobby but not enough breeding to be sure we will still have them in another 5-10 years. There are also granuliferus, lehmani, histrionicus, several epips that are in U.S. collections but not bred in numbers anywhere close to insuring they will have a future here. And then there are new comers like P. lugubris that should be pretty easy to establish but there hasn't been enough time yet to guarantee their future in the U.S. It took several attempts at importing terribilis and galactonotus from Europe before we had actually established strong populations here. Then there are frogs like E. tricolor and D. imitator that have gone through cycles where they were one of the most commonly frogs kept and several years later, people who want them are having a hard time finding them. Vents went through a similar phase. Luckily these have all made a resurgence but there was a point when I think these once common frogs could have blinked out. It's this last phenomena that really worries me the most with respect to new imports. I think we need to have a minimum of three long-term serious breeders keeping and breeding each species and morph we want to maintain and along with that should be at least another 6 hobbiests who are having good luck breeding each of these species or morphs. Most people only stay in the hobby 2-3 years which is why I specify the 3 long-term hobbyists. There are only so many skilled hobbyists (and here I'm not saying that only the long-term folks are skilled) available to breed the different types of frogs and each hobbyist is limited to keeping only so many types. Right now I think the hobby is doing okay for the most part because it has grown enough to mostly handle the capacity for most of the types we now have. But I do worry that too many imports too fast would add more types to the hobby than there are skilled froggers who can maintain them.
 
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Excellent post Brent,
I know firsthand how hard it can be trying to find frogs that haven't really been established in the hobby.It took me about 11 months from the time I tried getting Shepherds Island pums until I had some.
I sure would hate to see the Man Creeks and Chiraquis be that hard to find in the coming years.
Mark W.
 

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Mark Wilson said:
Excellent post Brent,
I know firsthand how hard it can be trying to find frogs that haven't really been established in the hobby.It took me about 11 months from the time I tried getting Shepherds Island pums until I had some.
I sure would hate to see the Man Creeks and Chiraquis be that hard to find in the coming years.
Mark W.
You mean like blue jeans are now? They could be bought for $25 at local pet shops 10 years ago.
 

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Regina bloodlines

What concerns me is the possible unavailability of different bloodlines of Reginas, I got mine from Patrick, and while I have a pair but have been searching for another bloodline, all the replys on Reginas have resulted in them coming from Patrick. These are fantastic animals from a fantastic breeder I would just like to diversify a little bit.
Thanks Kieth
 

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Re: Regina bloodlines

siples said:
What concerns me is the possible unavailability of different bloodlines of Reginas, I got mine from Patrick, and while I have a pair but have been searching for another bloodline, all the replys on Reginas have resulted in them coming from Patrick. These are fantastic animals from a fantastic breeder I would just like to diversify a little bit.
Thanks Kieth
Just out of curiosity, how large of a range to Regina come from in the wild? I don't do tincs so am very poor about even being able to identify morphs, much less know anything about their origins. But whenever I hear about mulitple blood lines of a single morph from a species that shows morphological diversity across its geographical range, I become very skeptical about the validity of splitting blood lines. I'm not saying the Regina lines are not legit, but if they aren't, then the gene pools may be unnecessarily narrow.
 

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Regina bloodlines

bbrock,
Thats a very good question, I had read somewhere that they were found near the town of Regina( go figure ) in which recent bridge construction jeapordized their habitat and they were feared possibly extinct. Don't quote me on this, if anybody has different info please help me out. I can assume then that their range was limited, so do we have a narrow gene pool to begin with? The same thought comes to mind with a friend who has a number of the almost spotless violet Azureus, he plans to breed within the same line to hopefully produce that same color. I'm not saying that is wrong, would you line breed or diversify the bloodline and hopefully get some babys that show that violet color?
Just some thoughts.
Maybe Patrick could shed some light on this subject, I'm sure he is better qualified then I am.
 

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Re: Regina bloodlines

siples said:
bbrock,
Thats a very good question, I had read somewhere that they were found near the town of Regina( go figure ) in which recent bridge construction jeapordized their habitat and they were feared possibly extinct. Don't quote me on this, if anybody has different info please help me out. I can assume then that their range was limited, so do we have a narrow gene pool to begin with? The same thought comes to mind with a friend who has a number of the almost spotless violet Azureus, he plans to breed within the same line to hopefully produce that same color. I'm not saying that is wrong, would you line breed or diversify the bloodline and hopefully get some babys that show that violet color?
Just some thoughts.
Maybe Patrick could shed some light on this subject, I'm sure he is better qualified then I am.
I would say that if it is fairly certain that all of the Regina come from the same wild population, then they should all be mixed together in captivity. Where you have problems is with things like pumilio where very similar looking morphs pop up in multiple isolated populations. Then it is hard to know which population the frogs belong to.

With respect to azureus. I'm very opinionated and outspoken but don't really want to single out any individual as right or wrong. But I will say this, all of the azureus in this country came from the same wild population. Their history is well known. If the goal is to maintain wild type frogs that have the same diversity and appearance as the azureus in the wild, then purposely breeding spotless purple frogs togther moves you away from the target of wild type frogs and into the realm of selective breeding. I like wild type frogs so if I had a frog that threw a morph like that, it would get treated no different than any other frog with respect to breeding.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Also notice that I never specified imports from where. There are frogs that are imported from Europe. :?
 
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