[VicSkimmr]

Disclaimer: I'm well aware of the implications of having a multi-species vivarium and have what I would consider a good understanding of frog behavior. I don't want this to turn into a debate about that.


That being said...


How aggressive are Ameerega in general? I know they're large frogs and they're quite active (and vocal), but I'm having a difficult time finding much information on them aside from very general husbandry.

I've been going back and forth on whether to make my vivarium a mixed species display for its entire life (and even back when I was first planning it out). If I were to go that route, pretty much the only frog I would consider would be A. trivittata "Huallaga Canyon" to go with my pair of R. imitator "Baja Huallaga"

What I'm concerned about is the trivs eating the imitator froglets as they pick springtails out of the soil at the bottom of the tank. I'm quite sure a trivittata could make them a snack if it so wished. I'm also a bit concerned with the trivs outcompeting the imitators for food, but we're talking about a very large enclosure so I'm fairly confident I could overcome that issue.

Thoughts? Anyone with personal experience with trivs that can give some insight?

This is the tank they'd be going in

March 14th, 2013 by jasonwithers, on Flickr

36x24x48. It's a pretty big space for a pair of imitators! They've been in it for about a year and a half now.


edit: nice, typo in the title.

 

[epiphytes etc.]

Maybe Hyloxalus azureiventris would be a better choice, they are smaller and found in Huallaga canyon.

 

[frogparty]

Beautiful viv. I dont have any personal exp. with Ameerega, but I know that they are definitely capable of taking on prey the size of a newly oow imi froglet. Would they preferentially choose to eat one with ample other, more familiar prey items around? That I cannot say

 

[VicSkimmr]

Maybe Hyloxalus azureiventris would be a better choice, they are smaller and found in Huallaga canyon.

The only thing keeping me from choosing those is that they're so similarly colored and patterned to my imitators to begin with.

Beautiful viv. I dont have any personal exp. with Ameerega, but I know that they are definitely capable of taking on prey the size of a newly oow imi froglet. Would they preferentially choose to eat one with ample other, more familiar prey items around? That I cannot say

That's my concern too. I don't particularly want to make guinea pigs out of my imitator froglets to find out, but the lure of a successful multi-species display is strong haha.

 

[easternversant]

What about a smaller Ameerega from the area or an Allobates (like altamazonica)? I don't know the origins of Ameerega cainarachi in the hobby but they are some swanky frogs!

 

[Tricolor]

Nice Tank, Let us know how it works out. I have hour glass frogs with my young terribilis for a couple years. I only keep him in with the young. Afraid adult terribilis would eat the little guy.

 

[Gamble]

What about Pepperi maybe?

From my personal experience, they do not seem like very aggressive eaters.
Heck, Hydei barely interest them. I have to feed them Melos still bc they seem uninterested in the Hydei.

 

[31drew31]

This will be a good thread for you, A. trivittata and R. imitator.

New Exhibit at the Vancouver Aquarium | Canadart

 

[el-ahrairah]

I have been keeping A. pepperi together with R. imitator since Sept 2011, with no problems, both species coexisting nicely and the imitators breeding frequently.
-Michael

 

[VicSkimmr]

That seems to be the consensus, so I'm thinking I picked a good combination. I appreciate the feedback!

 

[gturmindright]

I don't have any input to your question but that is an awesome setup. What are the lights? Is there a post about the build that I missed?

 

[VicSkimmr]

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/71866-vics-display-paludarium.html

The lights are an experiment, they've only been up for about a month so far. I just pieced them together at Lowes and put 15watt LED bulbs in the pendants. The jury is still out as to whether they're going to work long-term.

 

[VicSkimmr]

This will be a good thread for you, A. trivittata and R. imitator.

New Exhibit at the Vancouver Aquarium | Canadart

Sorry I totally missed this post. That's EXACTLY what I needed! I've always, always wanted to set up a viv exactly like that too. Get's the creative juices flowing haha.

 

[sports_doc]

I didnt read the entire thread but....

In the 'wild' Amereega are seen in same exact locales as the thumbs [My reference area is Peru]

Ive have no issues in larger vivs with both Amereega and their associated imitators BREEDING together. Have not seen any aggression.

99% of my vivs are for pairs/groups in breeding and are not mixed.

But I did/do experiment with the mix above, and have not had any issues...

Good luck.

 

[Dendro Dave]

Ok I'm not suggesting we give everyone that wants to mix a free pass on this combo, but I am experimenting with 1 benedicta in my sisa (chrome/green) bassleri viv. Hopefully after around 9 years in the hobby I've earned enough street cred that no one lynches me for this ...I'm still for the most part against mixing in most cases, especially for inexperienced people.

After keeping both species separate for a number of months and my bassleri doing nothing but sitting single, pairs or in groups under some piece of drift wood picking off flies in my beautiful well planted multi-level viv (not using about 3/4 of their viv) and being broke and having creative problems with my storm viv which the benedicta group was going to go to, I decided to move 1 of them in with the bassleri since that tank had high load of mircofauna and my bassleri seem more interested in ff's... I'm sure they're probably eating some springs but, just seem like there was more then enough for 1 benni.

My observation of benedicta is they utilize their entire enclosure. Mine tend to roost in the top of the tank, especially if my home temps are on the cool side (heat trapped at top back, since most of my vents are in the front), and they forage through all levels. The Benni in the bassleri viv is all over that thing, from the lowest floor level at front glass to the top of the tank in the back and everywhere in between.

The bassleri sit there under their log, occasionally swapping positions or only hopping out to go hide under a different log. They did this before the benni came to stay, they did this after the benni moved in

They come from fairly nearby places in the same country though at different elevations it seems. You can check the maps for each here...
Dendrobates.org - Ameerega bassleri
Dendrobates.org - Ranitomeya benedicta

So far this seems like a viable mix since they are same country, somewhat different niches and I don't see my bassleri more then 6 inches off the ground much (some of the laziest frogs I've ever had the pleasure of owning but still awesome and one of my favorites), and the benedicta favoring the upper parts (but still foraging on the floor some) they mostly stay out of each others way.

While they seem to inhabit different elevations in the wild, I keep all my frogs humid but with ventilation, and between 70-80F, in vivs 12-24" high like most people... so while a few people out there may be taking great pains to replicate highland habitat or something IMO I don't think replicating the climate difference between those elevations is necessary for success.

Btw this situation is likely temporary. I think the chromes are going to end up going to the old 40B glowing desert viv which I'm going to convert to tropical since I kinda lost interested in the idea of keeping a leopard gecko. I don't think being so short and having that rock mosaic background that it would really be ideal for the benni group, so they'll probably eventually end up in the storm viv that should see some progress soon since I'm getting a paycheck for the first time in over 2 years.

So for now it is just a temporary experiment. Maybe when I get around to redoing my 75, or doing the empty 55, or the big dryad viv I'll revisit the mix... but if I do both groups in their entirety in one viv... it is going to be big.

Seriously does anyone have chromes that actually move? These things are the couch potatoes of the dart world so far in my experience. My black bassleri did a lot more traveling in the 75 and actually seemed to hunt and that tank was the same distance away from me, just to my left instead of my right, and the chrome tank has about equally dense cover... These chromes just sit and look pretty. (Thankfully I still get a good look occasionally, so they're worth it.)

 

[yours]

What size enclosure Dave? Any pics? That's good recounting and observation by you for sure...

Is there water in there at all for the bassleri? How old are they again?

 

[Dendro Dave]

What size enclosure Dave? Any pics? That's good recounting and observation by you for sure...

Is there water in there at all for the bassleri? How old are they again?

Oh ya the bassler is a group of 5 in a 30gal. I think they are are 3/4 to adult size Not sure how big they get, nor have I measured them.I got them last summer if I remember correctly.

I honestly was worried that I wasn't getting them moved out of that viv soon enough because I like to do a little better then the 5 gal per frog guideline usually... but basically 3 of them always sit about 1-2 inches from each other under the drift wood on the right and then one hangs out by a piece more on the left side, or back in the back left corner, then one is usually somewhere in the back center of the tank.

They swap positions sometimes and will come sit out from under cover, or I'll catch them moving to another spot, but basically they just sit there. I would never do it but I think if they got well fed they'd be happy in a 10 gal if they had something to sit under. Seriously the laziest frogs I've ever owned.


Here is a crappy cell pic I just took real quick... (figures none of my blue flowers were in bloom now that I finally got around to taking a pic since it's grown in )

Hard to see but the plant growing up from the bottom right is covering a chunk of drift wood, and the big begonia on the left is also blocking the view of more wood. All that wood on the right partially hidden by the creeping plant is piled around a flower pot hidden in there and it creates this 360 degree cave under the wood between the wood and the flower pot if that makes sense Usually at least 3 frogs are under there.

The hole under the log by the big begonia pavonia on the left is from a slug trap I put there after I removed a fern pot. It creates a hide under that log and usually a frog is up under there. Eventually I'll plant something there, or put an accent rock or whatever. Actually though if you look real close you can see one of the sisa reflecting some light at the base of that begonia a lil to the left. Then another is usually hid back behind the area in the center with the smaller begonia pavonina division. The benni could be anywhere, but usually it roosts at the top somewhere in the back and then comes down to forage periodically.

I need to prune a bit, and plant something in the back left corner. The slugs decimated my blue oxalis that was filling that in, so I'll have to do something about that bare spot. I got lazy with the slug traps and the lil buggers made a come back

Anyways even with the benni I'm within the 5 gal per frog guidline this being a 30 gal viv, but I don't think I'm comfortable with this being the permanent home for the entire group of bassleri even given how lazy they are. They'll get a 40B at least sometime in the coming months. Really all I have to do to fire up the desert viv as a tropical viv is add water and new plants... just been broke and lazy to get around to it yet

Oh and no water feature in this viv. It actually wasn't even supposed to be a viv. It was a plant grow out tank, but the chromes popped up for sale and I actually had some money so I just through some drift wood I had on hand in there and piled it up against the back glass to make levels and hiding spots. I don't think they are to breeding age yet. I have not heard any calling from them yet either. Hopefully with 5 I at least got a pair in there. Whatever viv they get moved to will have a pond so they have a chance at some start to finish in tank breeding.

And lastly I got them last may... So they should till be just shy of a year old I think. Maybe by summer I'll get some action. Sorry for the scatter brained rambling was just about to go to bed before this post. 10pm-6am shift

 

[TarantulaGuy]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but it *is* relevant to my question. I have 5 juvenile A. bassleri 'blacks' in a 29 gal, and from what I've observed in the not quite month I've had them is that they are indeed lazy @$$ frogs. They sit under the leaves or driftwood pieces allllll day. My question however is, do you still have all 5 in this tank? And if so, are they still tolerating each other well? I'm curious as to whether I am going to have to split up my group as they mature in another year or two.

 

[thedude]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but it *is* relevant to my question. I have 5 juvenile A. bassleri 'blacks' in a 29 gal, and from what I've observed in the not quite month I've had them is that they are indeed lazy @$$ frogs. They sit under the leaves or driftwood pieces allllll day. My question however is, do you still have all 5 in this tank? And if so, are they still tolerating each other well? I'm curious as to whether I am going to have to split up my group as they mature in another year or two.

I've experienced the exact opposite of my bassleri. I have the black/sapasoa, and the chrome/sisa bassleri and they are very active and bold. How is your tank set up for them?

 

[Dendro Dave]

Sorry to bring up an old thread, but it *is* relevant to my question. I have 5 juvenile A. bassleri 'blacks' in a 29 gal, and from what I've observed in the not quite month I've had them is that they are indeed lazy @$$ frogs. They sit under the leaves or driftwood pieces allllll day. My question however is, do you still have all 5 in this tank? And if so, are they still tolerating each other well? I'm curious as to whether I am going to have to split up my group as they mature in another year or two.

I had 2 blacks years back and they were a bit more bold it seems, but it might have been because they were 2 males that called often.

In the sisa tank, I lost one. It had come in thin and just never seemed to thrive. I was able to find it and finally pull it, but couldn't save it. It was around the time of my post, so 6-8mo was when it died...

All the other frogs are still in there and have done fine since then. The one that died had always been the runt, so I don't think it had anything to do with the mix. There is still very little interaction between the benedicta and sisa, but even though the death IMO had little or nothing to do with the mix, it is factored into my decision to give the sisa a 40b to themselves.

The benedicta or other frogs will inherit their old viv. Due to the other frogs not seemingly to have the same issues, and that frog being a runt from the start, I don't think the death warrants tearing down the entire viv, but it may sit vacant and be allowed to dry out significantly just for some extra peace of mind.

The sisas have also gotten a bit more bold. Usually 2-3 of the 4 are visibile. They still don't move much, mostly sitting near a hiding place they can get to fast, but they are in plain sight and occasionally one hops openly to the other end of viv or comes to front glass to forage. They really seem to favor ambush huntering over foraging.

I don't have much leaf litter in the viv, but it is basically a big pile of driftwood so lots of hiding places, visual barriers and levels. Also lots of springtails and dwarf white isopods.

In my 30 I think 4 adults (+one benedicta) work, so if your viv is same size and really packed with hiding spots and leaf litter I think you'd be OK with 5 blacks, but honestly I'm going to move my 4 into a 40B with pond now that they are getting to be adults, and I would recommend going a bit bigger for you too.

So depending on the viv you may be ok, but I'd advise splitting 1 or 2 from the group or going bigger. The females are usually bigger I think, and one of mine is noticeably larger and more pear shaped so I'm hoping its a girl. If you can get an idea of sexes then maybe you could split 3 into a breeding trio and house the 2 others seperate at least till you get a bigger vivs... or sell/trade the extra. But if you have at least 2 females then make a pair and a trio and give them separate vivs until you move up to a 40B or larger.