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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a few female Amazonicus from Phil Tan line and am searching for a male. I may have a hookup for a male from Todd Kelley line. Is these lines indeed different and therefore should not be mixed?

Thanks for any responses.
 

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Frank,

I copied these known lines of red ventrimaculata, and/or amazonica out of the (in work) Ventrimaculata TMP I got from George Gazonas. Thought it might help in the discussion with the people who really know. Seems like a good step would be trying to contact Phil Tan and asking him which line (if not another) is his... I'm curious to know as well. I was told by Taron from Reptiles Etc. that the Amazonica I bought (through another local frogger who said they came from Taron) were Todd Kelley's line. Other than that tidbit, and the statement on the TMP that they came direct from Peru, I don't have any other information...

Hope you find your answer,

Brett



‘Red’ Europe

Red Amazonicus, Germany, 2001 John Uhern

Red Amazonicus, Peru, Todd Kelly Line

‘Iquitos Red-Orange’ UE Peru, 2005- Understory Enterprises;
 

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I would love to know more about these lines as well. I hate to sound stupid but what is the ventrimaculata TMP. I guess this might also inlude the U.E. Blackwater vents? In the early 90's I brought some back from Holland. I applied months in advance for a cites permit from Holland, got it the day before I left to come home and carried them the plane with me. Customs couldn't have been nicer. I showed them my papers and they waved me through. Didn't even check my bags. I'm sure this would not be the case now.
Jim
 

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Last time I talked to Kevin Moser he had orange and red amazonicus. Most likely they would be from an older imported line.

Michael
 

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Yeah. Taxon Management Plan. Treewalkers international / amphibian steward network gathers data about species and identifies what frogs are in the hobby so we can track lineage. It also has information about blackwater vents, but from memory there's only mention of a UE import in there. Not at computer so I can't check now. I just listed the known varieties of Amazonica to see if we could narrow down some locale data for Frank. there seems to be no shortage of confusion about Amazonica vs Iquitos vents and other red/orange varieties. Hard to say what wild population they are from when they come across from European bloodlines too.
 

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I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. I was adding the Blackwaters to the list Brett had. The frogs I brought in from Holland were just red vents of some kind. although at the time of course we were still calling them quinquivittatus. They hadn't changed the name yet. Sorry for the confusion.
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Last time I talked to Kevin Moser he had orange and red amazonicus. Most likely they would be from an older imported line.

Michael

The "Phil Tan" line amazonicus I have were purchased from Kevin Moser.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I really wish I could get a definite answer to this.. Or find me a source for Phil Tan line Amazonicus.
 

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You need to send Ron (skylsdale) a pm. Not only is he up on the TWI stuff, he also teams up with Todd Kelly in the selling of frogs. He will certainly be able to tell you if they should be mixed or not.

If memory serves me. Todd Kelly's 'Iquitos' are similar to everyone else's amazonicus, but should not be mixed because they came in mixed in with a group of fants or retics (can't remember which) that came directly to Todd. Therefore, they may be a separate population from the others, so shouldn't be mixed.

On the other hand, the Todd Kelly red vents, that he used to call amazonicus are different all together from everyone else's amazonicus. Clear as mud right?

I am sure Ron can give you a better answer.
 
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If memory serves me. Todd Kelly's 'Iquitos' are similar to everyone else's amazonicus, but should not be mixed because they came in mixed in with a group of fants or retics (can't remember which) that came directly to Todd. Therefore, they may be a separate population from the others, so shouldn't be mixed.

On the other hand, the Todd Kelly red vents, that he used to call amazonicus are different all together from everyone else's amazonicus. Clear as mud right?
Basically, yes. The "Iquitos" (which are not to be mixed with the UE Iquitos frogs) are there own population...and tend to be more orange/yellowish in color. They were collected alongside striped reticulata (assumed to be the same species by the collectors), and were separated out upon importation, the whole group going to Todd. Here is an example of this population:





But frogs out there that are sold as "Red Vents" or "Red Amazonicus" are a whole separate population from the "Iquitos" frogs Todd keeps. If you see them side by side, you can see a difference between the two types. The Todd Kelley line and Phil Tan line of "Red Vents" are one and the same and can (should) be intermixed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thank you Phil! I contacted Ron and his reply was that the Todd Kelly and Phil Tan line are one and the same.
 

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i guess in this case, frank, our frogs can/should be mixed ... mine have been calling recently, but i've had very sparse breeding since i picked them up. they dropped a clutch when i got them back in march, then nothing until a few weeks ago where they dropped one more that molded over. the guy i got them from had them breeding consistently every week. perhaps i can separate out a male for you by the next SCADS meeting and we can see how he does with your ladies...

here's a couple pics of mine.





-brett
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Brett.. Id love to take you up on that offer. C'mon October!
 

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Makes sense since Phil and Todd live in the same city and were some of the pioneers of thumbnail breeding in the USA.
 

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Is this still where it stands? I've heard alot of people referring to frogs in ways that confuse me. "Iquitos (what used to be called amazonicus)" for example, not from this thread by the way. I thought it was more the other way around now. I thought what was amazonicus is now amazonica amazonicus, and what were Iquitos Vents are now amazonica Iquitos.?????? Like I said I've seen the two interchanged a bit here recently which kind of worries me if they are still to be kept separate. I know they are pretty much the same just Iquitos have a recorded locale, but they aren't being mixed now are they?
 

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With regard to the line that Sean Stewart has... I was told "Our Iquitos bloodlines are from Understory and Todd Kelley". He used to refer to them as Amazonicus. If you search back a few years ago there were several people with Stewart line "Amazonicus".

My general understanding after PMing a few people was that the Iquitos recently brought in from UE have the specific location data and should not be mixed with any of the other populations... but the older populations are basically in the same situation as other morphs with no location data. I was told that if they are not site specific then it should be acceptable to mix. If they definitely are the UE line with data, keep em separate.
 
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