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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys my name is Adam. Ive been toying with the idea of keeping pdf's for a long time and at a recent reptile show I finally gave in and took the plunge.

Unfortunately I did not get the best info from the vendor I purchased the frogs from (black jungle?). I bought a premade 10 gal terrarium from them along with two tincs (1 cobolt and 1 yellow head). I had specifically asked for the same species hoping I could breed them if they happened to be a male/female pair. I have since learned that I got two distinct morphs and that breeding them would be unethical. As of now all of my phone calls and messages to black jungle have gone unanswered. I also quickly realized that a 10 gal tank did not provide enough space or a proper thermal gradient and switched to a 20xh. Even though it has the same foot print there is a LOT more room.

I have also started a 65 gallon terrarium that I plan on housing 4-5 chazuta imitators in. The tank is done but no frogs yet. I wanna give it some time for the springtails to take off and to let the ground settle a bit.

Heres some pics of both terrariums. Id love some opinions on how I did with the set ups... I tried to provide a natural and stimulating environment for the frogs. I am dissapointed with my experience with black jungle but ultimately it is my fault, I should have done more research and then I would have been able to tell the guy exactly which frogs I wanted. Live an learn I guess. When I order my imitators from understory I will not make the same mistake.

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Welcome :D those terrariums look great! I'm sure what lives in them will love them! You may want to put a few pieces of leaf litter in both...not necessary, but it just gives the frogs a few more places to chill :) Good luck!
 

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Hi Peekskillfrogger,

Welcome to the hobby. I don't know if you realized it or not, but the BJ guys are crazy busy at the shows. Trying to get good info from anyone when they are super busy probably won't be productive. There are a lot of people here that will take time to field questions, so this is a better route for sure.

The viv looks good. I know everybody likes the mosses for a base, but leaflitter is a much better choice for you D. tinctorious. Aside from wahtever hideouts you have provided them, they feel safe when they can dive into a nice thick leaflitter for cover.

Good luck with the frogs, Richard.
 

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Welcome and congrats on the new viv... :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Do yall think the 20XH is adequate for the pair of tincs? Its basically two ten gallon tanks on top of reach other.

I wasnt looking for the guys at the show to impart all of their collective frog knowledge on to me. But they told me I could keep diff. species together, which I now dont think was very good advice, and the thing that really upset me was giving me two diff subspecies of tincs... I even asked the guy when I noticed they looked a little different and he said that was normal :(

Are they going to have to be separated?

I appreciate the advice about leaf litter... I went a little od on the moss in the 65 so ill order up some magnolia leaves and remove some of the moss
 

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Richard is right on about the leaf litter. Strip out all of the ground moss or at least the vast majority. Leave the mosses for up on rocks and wood. Replace the ground mosses with leaf litter, that is, dead dry leaves.
Best choices are Oak, Live Oak (variety, NOT a green living leaf), Magnolia, Indian Almond. These types last the longest.
Leaf litter supplies areas for springtails and isopods to live, grow, and reproduce in. It supplies feeding/hunting grounds for your frogs. It supplies hiding/cover areas for your frogs. Your frogs come to realize that if cover is always only one hop away, then it is OK to be out in the open. Leaf litter also supplies food for your isopods and something to mold for your springtails. It also provides egg deposit sites for some of your sneakier frogs. It makes the sky bluer, candy taste sweeter, and is responsible for all the love in the world.
OK, maybe I stretched a bit at the end, but really, leaf litter!!
 

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Unfortunately I did not get the best info from the vendor I purchased the frogs from (black jungle?). I bought a premade 10 gal terrarium from them along with two tincs (1 cobolt and 1 yellow head). I had specifically asked for the same species hoping I could breed them if they happened to be a male/female pair. I have since learned that I got two distinct morphs and that breeding them would be unethical. As of now all of my phone calls and messages to black jungle have gone unanswered. I also quickly realized that a 10 gal tank did not provide enough space or a proper thermal gradient and switched to a 20xh. Even though it has the same foot print there is a LOT more room.
Hi Adam,
first of all I congratulate you on doing your research! Yes your new viv looks good. Soooo I hope you are planning to separate the two different morps of tincs from the same viv and either sell them or build two vivs, one for each one.
I am very dissapointed in the advice you were given and glad you did your research to be sure you were doing right by your frogs and the hobby.
Kudos!

-Beth
 

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Hi Peekskillfrogger,

Welcome to the hobby. I don't know if you realized it or not, but the BJ guys are crazy busy at the shows. Trying to get good info from anyone when they are super busy probably won't be productive. There are a lot of people here that will take time to field questions, so this is a better route for sure...
This comment really bothers me. Normally I would keep my mouth (fingers?) shut but I just can't. If these animals were purchased from BJ, then there is absolutely no excuse for the kind of information he received. I don't care how busy you are at a show. Those guys have been in this business for a VERY long time. They should know better. I know if I was going to be busy at a show, I'd have care sheets written up or something. Ridiculous...

Adam, I apologize for hijacking your thread. You have some very nice vivs and you seem like a good guy who's willing to research and take responsibility. You've already displayed more value than a large majority of the new comers I've seen pass through here like a McDonalds drive-thru. Don't be deterred by the shoddy info you received. DB is a great place to fill your head. I still find myself getting lost in threads absorbing the info people share.

Good luck.
 

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Really serious (and potentially libelous) feedback should not be permitted.

Thanks, Richard.
 

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Hi Antone,

This new person to the hobby is clearly wrong in believing that Rich or Mike said it is permissible to breed two D. tinctorius morphs together. They are busy at the shows because there are many people who want the things that they bring to the shows.

When back at the store, Rich and Mike (who have an 800 number) are available to talk at length and answer questions.

It sounds like another case of someone not doing the OWN homework before getting some frogs.

Richard.

This comment really bothers me. Normally I would keep my mouth (fingers?) shut but I just can't. If these animals were purchased from BJ, then there is absolutely no excuse for the kind of information he received. I don't care how busy you are at a show. Those guys have been in this business for a VERY long time. They should know better. I know if I was going to be busy at a show, I'd have care sheets written up or something. Ridiculous...

Adam, I apologize for hijacking your thread. You have some very nice vivs and you seem like a good guy who's willing to research and take responsibility. You've already displayed more value than a large majority of the new comers I've seen pass through here like a McDonalds drive-thru. Don't be deterred by the shoddy info you received. DB is a great place to fill your head. I still find myself getting lost in threads absorbing the info people share.

Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I can see this going down the wrong road really fast, and its not my intention or desire to see that happen. This is the last thing I am going to say on the matter. I have called black jungle 6 times since the show and left numerous voicemails. Not once has a real person picked up and not once has a phone call been returned. Here is the pic of the frogs I was sold and the cage I was told they could live in.
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Now I cant comment on if the tank is acceptable cus I didnt wait to find out when I saw that one of the frogs seemed off, so I moved them to a larger viv and they are both fine.

Yes I should have done more homework, I had focused more on general care for the diff. species than devoting time learning all of the different morphs within that species. And I did not take the time to learn that breeding diff morphs was greatly frowned upon before hand. I do not hold the place I bought the frogs from responsible nor have I said anything that was untrue about my experience with them. Libel by definition is the intentional telling of an untruth with the intent to cause harm, and I have published no such "untruths". I believe I was given bad advice from someone who sold me dart frogs and now seems to be avoiding my phonecalls, Maybe Im right maybe Im not. I was explicit in what I asked the sales rep from black jungle for, a potential pair of frogs that if proven to be male and female I could breed, and a proper habitat to keep them in. I have provided the pictures of what I recieved and I am looking to yall to tell me if yall think I got what I asked for... thats it.
 

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Hi Antone,

This new person to the hobby is clearly wrong in believing that Rich or Mike said it is permissible to breed two D. tinctorius morphs together. They are busy at the shows because there are many people who want the things that they bring to the shows.

When back at the store, Rich and Mike (who have an 800 number) are available to talk at length and answer questions.

It sounds like another case of someone not doing the OWN homework before getting some frogs.

Richard.
Adam didn't say that Rich or Mike told him that he could crossbreed the two frogs. He said he asked for the same species in hopes he could breed them should they turn out to be opposite sexes.

Now TECHNICALLY they are the same species but If Adam asked why they look so different and their response was, " That's normal" then that's a lie. The response shoulda been, "Because they are different morphs and shouldn't be bred."
:rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
So yeah... lol are they different morphs or what guys? At the show they told me that they were both suriname cobalts. If they are then thats awesome, and my only beef would be that noone has returned my phone calls (after all this Im not sure I want a return call).

Yeah they were super busy, but everyone in the booth looked over those two frogs and told me they would be good together. Im not the kind of guy that just takes whatever and doesnt do follow up research, and I was real clear with them about what I was looking for. I hope they are both suriname cobalts, Im just not sure cus they look really different, and would appreciate some help.

Heres the pic again
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So yeah... lol are they different morphs or what guys? At the show they told me that they were both suriname cobalts. If they are then thats awesome, and my only beef would be that noone has returned my phone calls (after all this Im not sure I want a return call).

Yeah they were super busy, but everyone in the booth looked over those two frogs and told me they would be good together. Im not the kind of guy that just takes whatever and doesnt do follow up research, and I was real clear with them about what I was looking for. I hope they are both suriname cobalts, Im just not sure cus they look really different, and would appreciate some help.

Heres the pic again
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I have to say a couple of things on this situation trouble me greatly. The first is Richard saying the Op is wrong, as if he was there observing the conversation, I think he has let his judgement to be blocked by his friendship with them. Two, someone should(as if Richard hasn't yet) notify them to let them offer an explanation, only fair. Three, why has anyone else not said what is glaringly apparent to me, the frog on the right side of pic sure looks a lot like a Yellow back tinct,. especially with the blue pattern on the legs. There are some real questions here that need dealing with in my opinion, Bill
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
So i guess it looks like I am going to have to give one of these guys away and try and find a suitable mate for the one I keep.

I believe that when we choose to keep a small animal like a pdf we are stewards of the animals instinctive drives aswell as its life, and I wont keep an animal unless I can provide it with an opportunity to experience every phase of its life cycle, including breeding. I dont care if there are viable offspring, but I know the animals feel a strong urge to pass along their dna and I want my animals to feel like theyve accomplished this part of their life cycle. I doubt that pdf's reflect on all the tail theyve gotten in their lives, but the urge to mate is so strong in amphibians that they will starve themselves, kill rivals, and attempt breeding to the point of exhaustion so it must be pretty important to them and as such is important to me.

I explained my thoughts on this matter to the guy that sold me the frogs and thats why Im so dissapointed. If these are different morphs, why were they in the same cage together at the show (along with leucs and auratus)? I know space is at a premium at those kind of events, but look at the problem it has caused. I wont speculate how many other people this may have happened to. But chances are most of those people will prolly never join a forum or even keep the frogs successfully (Ive heard its like a 95% 1 year mortality rate for most reptiles/amphibians in the pet trade) so they wont even know that the frogs they have shouldnt be housed together.

but w/e Im not trying to argue about this. Ill find a new home for one of them and a mate for the other and thats it... no harm no foul.

I should have just got the leucs... they all looked exactly the same
 
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Ok, I told myself I was going to stay out of this (yet again). First of all it might not actually have been Mike or Rich involved here, yea I know it`s still no excuse but they do hire people to keep an eye on things. I`ve been dealing with Black Jungle at their store and White Plains for about 6-7 years, and it just doesn`t sound like infomation they would knowingly give out.
Also, as far as keeping several different morphs. in the same containers, thats just the way it`s done at shows. They can`t have 20 different frogs all in seperate containers.
I will say they are quite notorious for not returning calls or e-mails, and once a Mod. reviews this thread all the feedback will be deleated anyway.
Have a lovely day!!

John
 

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Adam,

If you received two Suriname cobalts then they are probably the same species and same morph. If you received (as you said you received in the original post) a cobalt and a yellow head then they are different morphs and should (according to a vast majority of users of this board) be separated.

There are users on the forum who suggest that it's fine to breed pairs of D. tinctorius in ten gallons, but many find that they do much better in a 20 gallon long (while a 20 gallon high is better than a 10 gallon, D. tinctorius are terrestrial and will benefit from more flood space than from more vertical space).

Also, we all make mistakes. I wouldn't be kicking myself about the situation if I were you. It sounds like you're willing to take the steps necessary to rectify the situation, and I'm really just glad you found the board to do some research. I'm also glad that it sounds like you want to do whatever is best from your frogs.

I'm posting 'cause it seems like a lot of information is getting lost in the bickering about whether or not Black Jungle is a worthwhile vendor. If you'd like specific, detailed, straight answers PM me... it'll allow you to avoid creating further drama :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
yeah I didnt realize it was gonna cause this uproar. The name confusion came from a pic i posted some people identified them as different morphs but i bought them under the name suriname cobalts.

Shadow if you could take a look at the pic i posted id really appreciate it.

Im not trying to blast black jungle. I am not experienced enough in this hobby to make a judgement like that. I was and am less than thrilled with the fact that I have not recieved a response to the numerous messages ive left, and if they are indeed seperate morphs Ill be pretty bummed about that, but Im going to reserve judgement till i know for sure. and if they are different morphs w/e mistakes happen and ill find a new home for one of them. maybe ill be able to trade him/her for a more suitable mate for the one i keep?

Maybe a ten gallon is big enough, but I didnt feel like I was observing normal healthy behavior from the frogs until I moved them into the 20 XH, either way I think the frogs are better off in the 20 and if theyre happy im happy. One of the frogs seemed to really dominate during feeding time in the 10. It wasnt blatant aggression, but i know amphibians can be subtle when it comes to displaying dominance so i thought i should play it safe and go bigger.
 
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