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Whee do you stand?

  • Best thing since sliced bread! I'd pay double if I had to.

    Votes: 6 6.0%
  • I like them, but wouldn't pay a bundle for them.

    Votes: 42 42.0%
  • I completely disagree with them.

    Votes: 16 16.0%
  • They're cool I guess. But I wouldn't have them.

    Votes: 36 36.0%

Albino Darts

7K views 59 replies 22 participants last post by  Dendrobati 
#1 ·
Well, I was just wondering what everyone thought of the albino dart frogs. I've heard some say it's unethical, some say they're fascinating. Some say they'd pay abbundle for them, some say they wouldnt buy them. Where do you stand?

Mark
 
#3 ·
I have produces 2 in 11 years. I gave them away. I personally think breeding them or selling them contributes to the trend of selective breeding. It takes the natural out of our hobby. I have not contributed to it as it would likely turn this hobby into the new ball python hobby. We have just too many colors and patterns to try to play god. If you cant find what you like in natural form in this hobby your in the wrong hobby

Michael
 
#52 ·
I have produces 2 in 11 years.
Since Michael only produced two, isn't it likely that there is more than one trait controlling whether or not offspring are albino? If they were truely Mendelian Monohybrids, shouldn't those pairs have produced nearly 25% albino?
There has been discussion about managing the offspring, so they aren't purposely line bred. Just wondering if it would be correct to simply say that all non-albino offspring are 66% Het Albino?
How should someone designate the non-albino offspring for "Management"?
 
#5 ·
I would have them but wouldn't pay a bundle for them. If they are a natrual variation then there is no issue with me. I would also breed them back with a normal colored frogs. If they are a natural gentic variation then the genes are already with in said frogs and species. They should not be however be line bred for that color morph what so ever. So for me they shouldn't be treated better or worse then a regular colored frog.
 
#6 ·
Albinoism is a genetic abnormality and wild animals rarely survive long with it. Breeding albino frogs would not replicate nature because few, if any, probably survive in nature long enough to breed. In my opinion, it's a form of line breeding to deliberately try to produce them. Most dart frog hobbyists are not in favor of deliberate line breeding or perpetuating a genetic mutation that would be considered a detrimental characteristic in nature.
 
#7 ·
Abinism is a naturally occurring recessive trait. This means that, if by some chance occurrence you get two frogs out of your collection that are both heterozygous for the trait, meaning that they carry it and can pass it on to the offspring, but do not exhibit the trait themselves, they have a 25% chance of producing an albino offspring, or have 25% of their offspring be albino. Ay of you could have at least one frog that carries the gene, but not another for it to mate with to produce offspring that actually exhibit the phenotype.

Mark
 
#9 ·
James the only issue as Jim said is adding an albino into a breeding group no matter how large the group doesnt work out to what the natural chances of survival of the frog and the trait would be in the wild. This gos for all morphs, and traits.
 
#25 ·
Not picking on you Michael, just quoting as it is the most relevent to my post.

I'm just going to discuss some things here.. we can't use survivial in the wild as a justification for breeding or not breeding something in captivity as there are no natural selection pressures in captivity. There are reports of reproductive sized albino or other color mutations in anurans, including areas in which they were significant portions of the population (see for example Occurrence of yellow bullfrogs(Rana catesbeiana Shaw) in central Pennsylvania KA PHILLIPS, GC BOONE - Proceedings …, 1975 - Pennsylvania Academy of Science).

As noted elsewhere in the thread, if you cull them from the population, then you are directly affecting the genetics of the population which can reduce genetic variations in the populations as you can't be sure that there aren't genes that are beneficial for the frogs that are associated with those genes. People often think that this sort of selection doesn't affect other genes but it does.
The real method is to potentially include them in the populations genetics but you don't want to produce them at a greater frequency then what pops up on its own (in other words don't select for that trait and don't select away from that trait).

Hopefully that clears it up a little more.

Ed
 
#10 ·
I wonder how well an albino population would survive in the wild. In a group of animals where bright colors means danger, I venture to say that an albino population may just work out well, very well, if it weren't for the UV harming their delicate skin too severely. I honestly don't know, though. But that'd be my guess. It would only take one heterozygous pair, and bam, a new morph. There's no real way to say how they would do in the wild. There may even be whole albino populations out there. There's many places we haven't explored yet. Just saying, it's a possibility.

Mark
 
#19 · (Edited)
Pure white might not be recognized by the frogs' natural predators as indicative of toxic. Warning colors don't always save the first potential prey item (in this case a dart frog) from a predator who has encountered it for the first time. Avoiding bad tasting or toxic prey is, I believe, a learned behavior and the prey often dies in the encounter for the sake of the species, if you will. So, the odds are pretty thin, I would guess, that enough albino individuals would survive to reproduce. I also wonder (and this is pure speculation) whether the ability to accumulate toxins in their skin would be affected by albinism.
 
#11 ·
Im not sure UV issues on herps are all that true. An albino green iguana which I have needs just as much uv exposure as a normal one in order to thrive. That said the only population of albinos I know of surviving in the wild are albino burms in FL. They are a predatory reptile though with few dangers as well as being nonnative.
 
#21 ·
There is a population of albino (not pure - their eyes aren't red) squirrels in Brevard, NC. In fact, the town is famous for them. However, they only survive in the downtown area where hawks don't come very often. They're like pigeons. They cannot survive outside City parks and other placed inhabited by people due to predation. A hawk can spot a white squirrel from a mile away.
 
#12 · (Edited)
The iguana has scales. They act basically as a shield of sorts. As far as I know, darts, being amphibians, have think, sensitive skin. They have to in order to get all the oxygen and moisture they need through their skin. The scaled animals don't have this problem.

Mark

EDIT. I also heard someplace that there were wild populations of albino vents..
 
#13 ·
Ive seen no difference in albino darts vs normals but Ive only had one tinc and a thumb. I do know Patrick had issues morphing albino retics many years back but I think this is just another factor of reticulata being so frail. Albino ro no the survival rate for hand raising them isnt too great.
 
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#14 ·
Well, to be technically albino, there has to be no pigment in the eyes or the skin. So, the skin should look pale white or slightly pink, and the eyes should look the color of the back of the retina. In spiders, this is sometimes blue, but I assume it is pink in frogs. T could be a pale grey, though. You should definately see some difference..

Mark
 
#17 ·
Irregardless of wither they live 5 min in the wild or not by removing them from the gene pool you are removing genetic diversity wither or not you like it or don't not just the trait for albinism but all those that the frogs carries with it.

Same thing with melanism by removing any abnormality if it is a natural genetic trait then it is with in the gene pool to begin with and should be so, by removing it you are doing exactly what you say you don't like. What is the differance if I breed frogs for color or I remove frogs for color abnormality either way is line breeding because you are trying to breed to keep or remove a genetic trait. Right?

It seems to me that breeding it back into the gene pool of common colored frogs for that species is not line breeding but keeping the genetic diversity intact wither I like the out come of some recessive gene or not or wither I find it attractive or not.

Unless your are breeding it to reproduce the trait in more offspring from other frogs that have shown to have that trait as well isn't that the real definition of line breeding?. Unless I have miss understood line breeding or what is considered line breeding.

Also I could not find any study that shows what the average life span is of an albino frog in the wild. I personally don't know how long they would last nor am I willing to make an assumption on how long they would last.
 
#18 ·
The only issue is your not destroying a gene or trait as it is a genetic flaw. The frogs from the same clutch of eggs that show up should be just as good to return to the gene pool. At the rate frogs breed to other herps and animals if albino's which do occur in the wild made it to adult hood at any higher percentage they would be noticed. As territories are small and with direct hets breeding from the same clutch you would see patches of wild runn9ing albinos. They just stand out in the wild.Whether eaten or not they have a bigger shot being noticed which results in death, and injury.

Michael
 
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#28 ·
I hear you Ed and I was an active morph breeder of reptiles for years and I know this, To actively include a gene lets say albino, and breed it back in without purposely or directly breeding out the trait your founding stock would have to be kept tracked as well as be very large in numbers. Each het that results from the pairng is a risk that the albino gene ends up in large numbers. How do you keep this from happening in any unnatural way as hets are directly a result and I would consider them to be unnatural as well for the most part in the wild. Naturally occuring albinos dont hatch in numbers like they would in captivity.
I havent seen anything that suggests all offsring from a directly related clutch are all geneticly different or that albinism would hold a needed gene other clutch mates lack in order to sustain a line in nature and since albino darts are so rare and these speices arent falling off the planet due to lack of albinism I dont know how to go further into this subject.
This is captive breeding yes and while it doesnt apply to natural selection the hobby for the most part has thrown its 2 cents in on this and most would like to try and hold the natural beauty of these frog above all else.
Just my thoughts and I have nothing but hope this hobby advances to the ppoint more of us understand and can better husbandry all around. It is true that frogs are smaller and colors not so bright but it doesnt mean we need to breed out new colors, morphs.

Michael
 
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#30 ·
I hear you Ed and I was an active morph breeder of reptiles for years and I know this, To actively include a gene lets say albino, and breed it back in without purposely or directly breeding out the trait your founding stock would have to be kept tracked as well as be very large in numbers. Each het that results from the pairng is a risk that the albino gene ends up in large numbers. How do you keep this from happening in any unnatural way as hets are directly a result and I would consider them to be unnatural as well for the most part in the wild. Naturally occuring albinos dont hatch in numbers like they would in captivity.
I havent seen anything that suggests all offsring from a directly related clutch are all geneticly different or that albinism would hold a needed gene other clutch mates lack in order to sustain a line in nature and since albino darts are so rare and these speices arent falling off the planet due to lack of albinism I dont know how to go further into this subject.
This is captive breeding yes and while it doesnt apply to natural selection the hobby for the most part has thrown its 2 cents in on this and most would like to try and hold the natural beauty of these frog above all else.
Just my thoughts and I have nothing but hope this hobby advances to the ppoint more of us understand and can better husbandry all around. It is true that frogs are smaller and colors not so bright but it doesnt mean we need to breed out new colors, morphs.

Michael
It is actually somewhat simple.. if there is a core population that is being managed for diversity (ideally at least 100 (between multiple breeders but it can be done with much less)), then whether it is included in that group is by random choice to avoid bias on the part of the person making the determination. If it isn't selected by random, then it is deaccessioned into the unmanaged population. Whether or not is it line bred in the unmanaged population is then of no effect to the managed population.

If by chance it is included in the managed population, then it is paired with as unrelated an animal as possible which is probably not going to be a het for albinism (melanism or diabetes etc) so it ends up not showing up in the managed population at a higher rate than normal.
The only time you may see it more frequently is if the population is started with an extremely small population of animals so that the F1s have no choice but be closely related. These sort of populations are at the greatest risk of extinction due to the high risk of inbreeding depression and the lack of genetic diversity in the immunological genes making the population at greater risk from epidemics.


This minimizes the risks of artificial selection or line breeding on the genetics. Some drift will occur but these methods minimize it and are actually the methods used by institutions to preserve populations for between 200 and 500 years. The differences in the time scale depend on a number of factors including number of founders and minimal time between generations. With dendrobatids, we can reasonably respect at least 5-10 years (depending on species) between filial generations to sustain the program.
 
#32 ·
yes but with protection from collection they are still a tourist attraction which usually leads to the natural predator levels and well as all around dangers to dwindle. Their territory is likely not very natural anymore.

Michael
 
#34 ·
Who the hell wants a white dart frog when their natural colors look so forking awesome anyways?

Piebald,albino etc ball pythons have such a big following because ball pythons "naturally" look like .....well like a ball of crap...and have little or NO personality.

Dart Fanatics are TRUE lovers of nature and environmental simulation....if albinism happened naturally then we would see more of it...

Any intentional screwing with genetics is VERY frowned on in this hobby (in my opinion)!

John

Tinctorius
0.0.4 Azureus
0.0.4 Citronella
0.0.2 Yellowback
1.1.0 Powder Blue
0.0.1 Cobalt

Auratus
0.0.4 Costa Rica
0.0.1 Campania

Leucomelas
0.0.2 British Guiana
 
#42 ·
Any intentional screwing with genetics is VERY frowned on in this hobby (in my opinion)!

John

Yet deliberate screwing with the genetics occurs routinely with no outcry. Everytime someone purchases a group of siblings to rear to get a pair of frogs and chooses the prettiest pair of those to set up as breeders..
Everytime someone claims they are letting natural selection determine which tadpoles survive to metamorphosis or continues to perpetuate frogs that were line bred for different pattern type (fine spot azureus as an example). All of these are deliberate acts which screw with the genetics of the populations.

If you think about it objectively, the hobby in general is simply breeding for color and pattern (as the "best" frogs are paired together (a subjective bias)..)

Ed
 
#35 ·
I don't agree with breeding for albinism or any selective breeding for that matter in darts but keeping an albino with "normally" colored darts isn't going to hurt. I'm with Michael and would prefer not to do it but it can be done if you can place the dart with others not closely related. Albinism does happen in the wild with darts and I have read more then once that there are populations with noticeable amounts of albinos. I do believe vents was the example used.
 
#38 ·
Keeping an albino with regularly colored frogs will produce heterozygous offspring if the two mate. Say the genotype for the albino frog is aa. The Genotype for the "normal" frog, if he is homozygous dominant, would be AA. If the two mated, it can, minimilistically, be gathered that their offspring would be 100% Aa, heterozygous (carrying the gene, but not exhibiting the trait themselves). Should these offspring mate, or be mated with another heterozygous, they would produce 25% AA, or homozygous dominant, offspring which neither carry the trait or exhibit albinism, 50% Aa, heterozygous offspring which carry the trait and can pass it on, but do not exhibit albinism themselves, and 25% aa, homozygous recessive. These are your albino offspring.

This is how keeping albino frogs with other normal frogs can lead to the dreaded albino pandemic.

Mark
 
#36 ·
Oh and as far as the albino rat snake in Japan goes a census was started in 1974 and has since noticed a decline in the amount of wild albinos but the normal type is still common. A breeding program was started to bring the albino population back up so that the city of Iwakuni does not lose this "natural monumnet"!
 
#45 ·
I know it is and while I usually do my part to try and include all lines and a frog from each group into a pairing which is random I do not believe adding a runt or clearly weaker frog into the pairing when there is one from the same clutch that is a better choice. I dont care about pattern, colors and all that but with frogs being smaller these days why risk adding to it.
I know your sneaker male reference as well from the issues on the marbled thread over a year ago but that said it happens at a much smaller percentage than the dominate male in a group breeding. If the hobby would focus on bettering husbandry instead of producing new morphs, mixing and trying to breed out as many frogs as they can to make a buck we may be able to prevent it all.

Michael
 
#47 ·
I know it is and while I usually do my part to try and include all lines and a frog from each group into a pairing which is random I do not believe adding a runt or clearly weaker frog into the pairing when there is one from the same clutch that is a better choice. I dont care about pattern, colors and all that but with frogs being smaller these days why risk adding to it.
I know your sneaker male reference as well from the issues on the marbled thread over a year ago but that said it happens at a much smaller percentage than the dominate male in a group breeding. If the hobby would focus on bettering husbandry instead of producing new morphs, mixing and trying to breed out as many frogs as they can to make a buck we may be able to prevent it all.

Michael
It depends on what your intentions are with the population. If you are breeding for a wild type population then culling frogs who may be phenotypically expressing genes that are not 100% adaptive to captive life (and the associated genes such as immune function) is contraindicated as it reduces important genetic diversity.

If the goal is to produce a population analagous to the pure bred dog in which those animals which are considered to be showing "faults" based on a subjective analysis are culled, then that is acceptable within that process.

It all depends on the goal for that population.
 
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