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Whee do you stand?

  • Best thing since sliced bread! I'd pay double if I had to.

    Votes: 6 6.0%
  • I like them, but wouldn't pay a bundle for them.

    Votes: 42 42.0%
  • I completely disagree with them.

    Votes: 16 16.0%
  • They're cool I guess. But I wouldn't have them.

    Votes: 36 36.0%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Well, I was just wondering what everyone thought of the albino dart frogs. I've heard some say it's unethical, some say they're fascinating. Some say they'd pay abbundle for them, some say they wouldnt buy them. Where do you stand?

Mark
 

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I have produces 2 in 11 years. I gave them away. I personally think breeding them or selling them contributes to the trend of selective breeding. It takes the natural out of our hobby. I have not contributed to it as it would likely turn this hobby into the new ball python hobby. We have just too many colors and patterns to try to play god. If you cant find what you like in natural form in this hobby your in the wrong hobby

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I just wanted to add, that I haven't declared my opinion in either manner as to keep this neutral from my side. So this isnt saying, in any way, that I do, or do not, agree with the practice. Please do vote though. :)

Mark
 

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I would have them but wouldn't pay a bundle for them. If they are a natrual variation then there is no issue with me. I would also breed them back with a normal colored frogs. If they are a natural gentic variation then the genes are already with in said frogs and species. They should not be however be line bred for that color morph what so ever. So for me they shouldn't be treated better or worse then a regular colored frog.
 

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Albinoism is a genetic abnormality and wild animals rarely survive long with it. Breeding albino frogs would not replicate nature because few, if any, probably survive in nature long enough to breed. In my opinion, it's a form of line breeding to deliberately try to produce them. Most dart frog hobbyists are not in favor of deliberate line breeding or perpetuating a genetic mutation that would be considered a detrimental characteristic in nature.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Abinism is a naturally occurring recessive trait. This means that, if by some chance occurrence you get two frogs out of your collection that are both heterozygous for the trait, meaning that they carry it and can pass it on to the offspring, but do not exhibit the trait themselves, they have a 25% chance of producing an albino offspring, or have 25% of their offspring be albino. Ay of you could have at least one frog that carries the gene, but not another for it to mate with to produce offspring that actually exhibit the phenotype.

Mark
 

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They're an interesting oddity but not something I would seek out or want to see intentionally produced.
 

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James the only issue as Jim said is adding an albino into a breeding group no matter how large the group doesnt work out to what the natural chances of survival of the frog and the trait would be in the wild. This gos for all morphs, and traits.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I wonder how well an albino population would survive in the wild. In a group of animals where bright colors means danger, I venture to say that an albino population may just work out well, very well, if it weren't for the UV harming their delicate skin too severely. I honestly don't know, though. But that'd be my guess. It would only take one heterozygous pair, and bam, a new morph. There's no real way to say how they would do in the wild. There may even be whole albino populations out there. There's many places we haven't explored yet. Just saying, it's a possibility.

Mark
 

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Im not sure UV issues on herps are all that true. An albino green iguana which I have needs just as much uv exposure as a normal one in order to thrive. That said the only population of albinos I know of surviving in the wild are albino burms in FL. They are a predatory reptile though with few dangers as well as being nonnative.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
The iguana has scales. They act basically as a shield of sorts. As far as I know, darts, being amphibians, have think, sensitive skin. They have to in order to get all the oxygen and moisture they need through their skin. The scaled animals don't have this problem.

Mark

EDIT. I also heard someplace that there were wild populations of albino vents..
 

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Ive seen no difference in albino darts vs normals but Ive only had one tinc and a thumb. I do know Patrick had issues morphing albino retics many years back but I think this is just another factor of reticulata being so frail. Albino ro no the survival rate for hand raising them isnt too great.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Well, to be technically albino, there has to be no pigment in the eyes or the skin. So, the skin should look pale white or slightly pink, and the eyes should look the color of the back of the retina. In spiders, this is sometimes blue, but I assume it is pink in frogs. T could be a pale grey, though. You should definately see some difference..

Mark
 

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I know the difference and have seen it. I was referring to them being any weaker or suseptable to uv or disease,

Michael
 
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Albinoism is a genetic abnormality and wild animals rarely survive long with it. Breeding albino frogs would not replicate nature because few, if any, probably survive in nature long enough to breed. In my opinion, it's a form of line breeding to deliberately try to produce them. Most dart frog hobbyists are not in favor of deliberate line breeding or perpetuating a genetic mutation that would be considered a detrimental characteristic in nature.
I agree 100%!
 

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Irregardless of wither they live 5 min in the wild or not by removing them from the gene pool you are removing genetic diversity wither or not you like it or don't not just the trait for albinism but all those that the frogs carries with it.

Same thing with melanism by removing any abnormality if it is a natural genetic trait then it is with in the gene pool to begin with and should be so, by removing it you are doing exactly what you say you don't like. What is the differance if I breed frogs for color or I remove frogs for color abnormality either way is line breeding because you are trying to breed to keep or remove a genetic trait. Right?

It seems to me that breeding it back into the gene pool of common colored frogs for that species is not line breeding but keeping the genetic diversity intact wither I like the out come of some recessive gene or not or wither I find it attractive or not.

Unless your are breeding it to reproduce the trait in more offspring from other frogs that have shown to have that trait as well isn't that the real definition of line breeding?. Unless I have miss understood line breeding or what is considered line breeding.

Also I could not find any study that shows what the average life span is of an albino frog in the wild. I personally don't know how long they would last nor am I willing to make an assumption on how long they would last.
 

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The only issue is your not destroying a gene or trait as it is a genetic flaw. The frogs from the same clutch of eggs that show up should be just as good to return to the gene pool. At the rate frogs breed to other herps and animals if albino's which do occur in the wild made it to adult hood at any higher percentage they would be noticed. As territories are small and with direct hets breeding from the same clutch you would see patches of wild runn9ing albinos. They just stand out in the wild.Whether eaten or not they have a bigger shot being noticed which results in death, and injury.

Michael
 
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Pure white might not be recognized by the frogs' natural predators as indicative of toxic. Warning colors don't always save the first potential prey item (in this case a dart frog) from a predator who has encountered it for the first time. Avoiding bad tasting or toxic prey is, I believe, a learned behavior and the prey often dies in the encounter for the sake of the species, if you will. So, the odds are pretty thin, I would guess, that enough albino individuals would survive to reproduce. I also wonder (and this is pure speculation) whether the ability to accumulate toxins in their skin would be affected by albinism.
I wonder how well an albino population would survive in the wild. In a group of animals where bright colors means danger, I venture to say that an albino population may just work out well, very well, if it weren't for the UV harming their delicate skin too severely. I honestly don't know, though. But that'd be my guess. It would only take one heterozygous pair, and bam, a new morph. There's no real way to say how they would do in the wild. There may even be whole albino populations out there. There's many places we haven't explored yet. Just saying, it's a possibility.

Mark
 

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The only issue is your not destroying a gene or trait as it is a genetic flaw. The frogs from the same clutch of eggs that show up should be just as good to return to the gene pool. At the rate frogs breed to other herps and animals if albino's which do occur in the wild made it to adult hood at any higher percentage they would be noticed. As territories are small and with direct hets breeding from the same clutch you would see patches of wild runn9ing albinos. They just stand out in the wild.Whether eaten or not they have a bigger shot being noticed which results in death, and injury.

Michael
Ok I got ya now.....I see what you are saying that make sense.
 
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