[rmelancon]

RE: Sexing pumilio (and other frogs)

Seems I am probably a little late with my email and it seems pretty sad that someone who has an expertise in an area that benefits us all will no longer be a contributor to this forum. Regardless of who is to blame I think it is a shame. Ok, off my box... One way of sexing pumilio and this works to a degree in all darts is to hold them kind of upside down, basically you want them to "squinch in" their neck. It would be the equivalent of you touching your chin to your chest. Now look for the vocal sac on the males. In this position a males neck will look different than a females in the same position because the vocal sack will "fold up". Not fool proof by any means and works better in some species than others.

 

[Guest]

Do not add semantics to a post; and moderators

I read through the thread, and have a few things to say.

First, this is my first post here. I have read quite a few of them, and a few things have popped out that really bother me.

Second, Dr. Frye is a Veterinarian. giving out medical advice, especially if it is free, should not only be allowed, but encouraged. Whoever the genius is that asked a Doctor to not doctor should have their head examined. ESPECIALLY if that vet specializes in poison frogs. (I cannot think of another in the country. Fill me in if there is another that anyone knows of.)

Third, and the absolute most troubling, is the amount of "moderating" that goes on. The reins are way too tight, and the definitions of slander (impossible to do on a message board, since slander is spoken; Libel is written) or abuse are a little skewed. I have counted over two dozen times on about 60 threads where the "rules" were posted. It seems to me that there are way too many chiefs, and not enough ******. (If you are massively sensitive, that was a racial remark, so I should probably be booted.)

No matter what you say, 1/3 are going to agree, 1/3 will disagree, and 1/3 cannot stand you and will freak regardless of what is said.

Libel is by definition printing something about someone else that is knowingly false. If you say that such and such's product killed all your frogs, or that they sent you bad frogs, If you are telling the truth, (which simply means that you are not knowingly lying...) Then you have done nothing wrong. No libel has been committed. If you are criticising something that someone has said or is doing, then nothing abusive has gone on either; as did NOT happen in this thread. Yet the moderator saw fit to threaten the posters.

I think that the definitions of the things that the rules are looking to govern need to taught to the people that are going to govern, before they go out and try to govern.

Most likely my last post on Dendroboard, and not because I ticked off the moderators...

John Gibeau

 

[Scott]

John,

That's the beauty of this free service. Nobody is putting a gun to your head telling you to stay and read, no one is putting a gun to your head telling you to leave.

Me? I like what I've read. I appreciate that the owner of the site is doing the best he can to keep liabilities (his liability specifically) to a minimum - which is exactly what I would do in the same situation. That is done by moderating.

As neither of us is involved in moderating and/or ownership of this site, I do not think it's a good idea for either of us to tell him how to do his thing. Matter of fact - I believe this site was created out of someone telling him to do his own thing (FrogNet saying things are fine there, if you want to try something else - go for it).

I appreciate having this site and I appreciate the people posting here (you, Dr. Frye, Melis, moderators and everyone else included) so I think I'll stick around awhile to see if I can learn anything else.

Scott
Sanford, Maine

 

[Guest]

whats ironic (and sad) about the whole situation is that this whole post started by Dr. Frye attempting to gather information to better help the people on this board by trying to please the orders of pairs of pumilios placed by alot of members of this board. So in a nutshell he was doing us a favor and then asked advice to make sure he could do that favor in the best possible manner and then got booted out because of over sensitive people!

I myself am a biggener and I am always reading every post i can to gather information, and I am defintley let down by what has happened. I was defintley looking forward to his post about the condition of the Pumilio farm bred shippment arriving, but i guess most people would rather speculate about things of this nature (like they were doing a few days ago) instead of getting expert 1st hand information! Oh well just my 2 cents...

 

[froglady]

then got booted out because of over sensitive people!

O.k. That's it. I'm am completed frustrated over the fact that many people who are not aware of certain events are crying 'poor doctor'. Is anyone involved in the situation 100% in the right? No. Were poor decissions made. Yes I think so. But there is alot more going on than what people are seeing.

Go back and reread the post Melissa made in regards to sexing the pumilio. Then read Mark Pepper's post (the one everyone liked). They are extremely similar. Basically they both stated that the best way to sex the pumilio is to watch their behavior. Specifically for breeding behavior. We have spoken to individuals who have gotten in farm raised animals and this is how they do it. Additionally, other than DNA tests, it is probably the most accurate way. Face it, these guys don't have 100% dead on distinguishing sexual features. We aren't talking bearded dragons and leopard geckos here. We're talking dart frogs. Will you even be able to see a darkened throat patch of a stressed frog? I'm not sure of that answer. I guess it depends on how good of a shape these guys are in when they come in.

This whole issue started because Melissa disagreed with statements Dr. Frye was making. MULTIPLE posts were deleted. Melissa neither edited or deleted any of the posts. Those decisions were made by the board admin.

A disagreement on an issue is not an arguement. You can have desenting opinions and still have a good converstation. If the whole world was a big ol' "I'm with you man" then it would be a very boring place. You can say the sky is royal blue. I may disagree and say no it's powder blue. Are either one of us incorrect? NO. We just are seeing things differently.

I for one am tired of the threats. I'm tired of the massive smear campaign going on in front of and behind the scenes. And before anyone screams lawsuit or slander or libiel. I have the emails to back it up.

I've been abused in the past. I know the signs. I stood up and screamed NO MORE! I got out of the situation and insisted that I never again will allow myself to be abused by anyone. I've kept quiet during this whole thing for two reasons. One -- I tend to believe that isolated incidents should be dealt with privately. Two -- This just isn't good for my mental health. It's now gotten to the point though that it isn't good for my mental health to stay silent.

Do I agree with the posts that basically say 'see ya'. No. It's sad that it came to this. I think a vast majority of individuals on this board just want the board to get back to normal. (MEANING TALKING ABOUT FROG STUFF.) Does anyone still remember the feeling about this board when it first started? The friendships that were created? Anyone remember the 'whatever I can do to help' attitude? Can we start helping people out again? Can we start having discussions that are topic related? Let's talk about some frogs o.k.?

I'm in this hobby because I love my frogs and I love the friends that I have made. It is unfortunate that the acts of a few cast a shadow over the hobby as a whole...........

 

[khoff]

Sarah,
Thank you for posting what so many of us were waiting to hear. There have been many inexcusable things going on lately that many people have not seen. But I will not into any of that either because like you said, let's get the forum back on the right topic, frogs! All I have to say is, from the things I know that have happened, the moderators have my full support! Keep up the good work guys (and gals)!

 

[steelcube]

Ok, I am not trying to start anything... just want to know something...

If in the future, I have different opinions than the moderators, should I just keep quiet? Or would I be banned from this board, if I post them?

SB

 

[Guest]

Nope, we are all new at using this type of forum within this hobby. I want constructive feedback. I'm just trying to make the best forum possible, and am willing to recognize and learn from my mistakes.

 

[Guest]

Habit?

Does this include not erasing everyone's good bye posts? Like John Gibeau's this morning? I know he said somethings that could ruffle some feathers, but was it nessassry to delete it also?

 

[froglady]

Does this include not erasing everyone's good bye posts? Like John Gibeau's this morning?

John's post is still there.

 

[Guest]

One is. Not the one that was deleted. Ask John if necessary. It was labeld something like "I have officially decided." He had 2 posts this morning

 

[kyle1745]

Couple of comments, no more..

First I would like to say that I have kept out of all of the recent happenings until now, and just wanted to offer a couple comments:

When I used to manage people in college, I had to take management classes and something I learned then fits here:

My wording maybe a bit off:
"praise in public"
"reprimand in private"

I think if you disagree with someone you should discuss it in private. There is no benefit to anyone to bash someone.

In this hobby there are no standards, and in many case no right or wrong answer. Some people have luck with things, that other people have tried and lost frogs. Its just not an exact science.

Now this is not to say that there is not any value to public debate, but if you can not do so without putting someone down, or bashing someone then maybe those people should stay out of it. Its all about personal control.

I think these few issues will do nothing but make the board stronger, and better in the future. I hope everyone involved can work out their differences and move forward. Remember this board is new, and things like this can be expected, it will calm down and get back to normal just give it some time.

Just my 2 cents,

 

[JJuchems]

I agree with Kyle. Keep this private and a little less moderatoration. We all have our own opinions but this public side taking, school yard fight, needs to end. This a board about dendrobates. If you do not like someones opinion shut up and read on. No one is making you read everyones post. I know that I do nnot agree with a few folks buy hey, skip thier post and read on.
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems

 

[froglady]

I apologize if my reponse to inbloom looked like public bickering . It truely was not meant that way. I have been monitoring this forum most the day and only saw one post from John (the post on page 3 -- I think -- of this thread).