Dendroboard banner
1 - 20 of 54 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
685 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After reading all the bickering, ranting, bullying, and disrespect here, I have a few questions............

1. When someone says You can't keep frogs in a terrarium with others that they don't come into contact with in the wild--What frogs do captive born frogs born and raised in a terrarium come into contact with in the wild?

2. If the reason we MUST keep the bloodlines pure and the morphs seperate is so these frogs don't disappear from the hobby, Why are Benedicta like $300 and one Tinc $250 but another only $40? Shouldn't they all be the same since we just want to get enough of them into the hobby to sustain them?

3. If only 25 of the latest greatest pumilio come into the hobby and we MUST keep this line seperate from any other import, Since all stock will come from this same group, are we not line breeding this group?

4. Do you agree with every piece of advise you are given here?


Please, no hybrid, or mixing debate here. These are serious questions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,152 Posts
1) The rationale behind this reasoning is dependant on following nature's model for keeping locales separate, or of nature's allowing natural hybrids on the same token, not that one day the viv subjects would be mixed with nature.
It's an issue related to genetic viability. Hybrids often produce sterility, and that is not something we want passed on, even if the offspring would not look significantly different from the original species.

2) Many believe that tiering prices is simply part of a healthy market system. If you reaally want the frog, you will pay more for it and likely care for it better than a frog that is cheaper. Monetary tags are inextricable from value in many people's minds (perhaps not yours and mine, but probably most). This may help preserve the more rare species that do not readily breed. On the other hand, some suggest this increases the risk of smuggling...and this is another round-about, never-ending argumentation loop...

3) Guess so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,415 Posts
2) There are frogs that a single pair could plausibly produce 100 or more froglets in a year if you really chose to work them. There are others like Escudo that may only produce a few froglets in a year. It baffles me that you think they should cost the same. Let alone the laws of supply and demand. What about somebody putting a couple thousand dollars into a small group of benedicta from Understory? He doesn't have a right to recoup his expenses? Maybe even bring in some extra money to support his expensive hobby? Is it fair to Understory to immediately try to undercut him so he cannot recoup his expenses on the long and expensive process of bringing these frogs to us legally when otherwise they may never be seen in the hobby? Time has already brought the price from $450 dollars down to $300 and more time will bring it down more. In the meantime, if you want a cheap frog, buy a cheap frog and lay off the breeders that are working towards eventually making them more affordable.
You know Azureus used to run $500 each and now they are down to like $35. It is the breeders who brought this price down over time.

3) Recently some frogs have come in being called Bri-Bri. Yet, they are from a different country than the original Bri-Bri. They are a different frog that happens to look similar. This is why localities and import dates should be kept separately.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
685 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
2.I completely understand the laws of supply and demand. But no one ever mentions profits. That is my point. It isn't all about keeping the frogs around in the hobby. It is about making a buck alot more than some will admit. Yes, I remember when Azureus were considered rare. I am not knocking the breeders, but a guy that buys a certain frog because the frglets will bring top dollar is no holier than a designer breeder. Correct? The price of all herps have came way down, and alot of that was in part to the flood of people into the hobby to make a quick buck. I don't want a cheap frog, If I want a frog, I will pay the going price. I just want people to be honest.

3.So are we not then line breeding both groups of Bri-Bri?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
685 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
No Scott,

I think you misunderstand my intentions here. I am not wishing to argue, and I stated I didn't want to discuss mixing or Hybrids.

I honestly wonder if such seperated bloodlines will cause deletrious mutations down the road. I believe that line breeding for traits definately will, but won't such small groups being inbreed over and over have the same effect?

As for question #4, If we all stopped to consider this, there would be less arguing all the time on every topic. I see alot of posts that are more "you have to do it this way because I do it this way" than real advice.

And, I do believe if you out the designer breeders you should also out the ones that are just in it to make a buck. Because when it comes right down to it, they will be deceptive as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
791 Posts
In my honest opinion yes, it is a little more about making a buck than some may admit. However, you have to consider that when someone pays $300+ for a frog they might not be all that willing to sacrifice the amount of money they put into the frogs+breeding, etc.

btw; dont mix
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,415 Posts
2.I completely understand the laws of supply and demand. But no one ever mentions profits. That is my point. It isn't all about keeping the frogs around in the hobby. It is about making a buck alot more than some will admit. Yes, I remember when Azureus were considered rare. I am not knocking the breeders, but a guy that buys a certain frog because the frglets will bring top dollar is no holier than a designer breeder. Correct? The price of all herps have came way down, and alot of that was in part to the flood of people into the hobby to make a quick buck. I don't want a cheap frog, If I want a frog, I will pay the going price. I just want people to be honest.

3.So are we not then line breeding both groups of Bri-Bri?
It is not all about making a buck either. I don't know of any frog breeder who is a millionaire. It takes a lot of work and is NOT an easy way to get rich quick. How do you know that whatever breeders/frogkeepers you may be referring to, purchased said frog just to make a buck?? When I decided to break back into the hobby, I began searching on the internet for the frog I wanted to start with. I found a picture of Benedicta. "Wow!" Yeah, I said it out loud, "Max come look at this!! I found our frogs!" This was before I could even find out it they were in the country, let alone what the price may be.
So because I love the looks of the Benedicta, you are saying I am no better than a designer breeder? Isn't a designer breeder trying to create new breeds? I am against crossbreeding, and sir, I take umbrage. You say you just want people to be honest. I told you honestly that if I spend a lot of money on a group of frogs, then I intend to sell and trade my offspring for fair market value. Perhaps even one day to pay off the many thousands of dollars I have into vivs, plants, light, frogs, etc. If I ever break even, yes, it would be pretty sweet to even make a little money on the side. GASP!! Profit?!! So I was honest, and yet your comments sound an awful lot like you are, in fact, still knocking the breeder and comparing me to a designer breeder?
You toss around the words: bickering, ranting, bullying, and disrespect. I've seen a few of your posts and it sure seems an awful lot like you love a good argument. And sir, in my book, respect is earned, not tossed around freely.

3. No, we are inbreeding them to a certain extent. If you have a better suggestion to open up the bloodlines on a frog from Costa Rica that you have not been able to legally collect for many years now, I'd love to hear it. Until then, it would be nice to be able to get a true Bri Bri and not something that's half Bri Bri and half, well, whatever red frog your felt like breeding with it.
Line breeding implies specifically breeding for a certain trait. Lets say you found some Bri Bri with a blue spot on their heads. You decide to breed them together. You select only the young that have a blue spot and they get bred back to mom and dad. This goes on, breeding brother to grandmother, constantly keeping only the blue spot frogs, as the blue spot gets bigger and bigger, until finally, you have line bred a line of BriBri with blue heads. Unfortunately, if you sneeze in their general direction, they all drop dead. That is line breeding.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
685 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Doug, I am not asking for your respect, I could give a damn less if I had it. And I am NOT referring to you or every breeder. I am pointing out that there are some in the hobby that are just in it to make a buck, yet nothing is said.

Will I argue if I disagree, yes. Aren't you right now? But we don't have to be disrepectful to each other all the time.

As for the Bri-Bri, I don't have the answer. But don't you think this is something we should think about?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,415 Posts
Class act. I'm out. This guy is the definition of the "bickering, ranting, bullying, and disrespect", that he opens with.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
568 Posts
You live in a capitalist country. Contrary to popular belief, supply and demand will help separate the people serious about the morph and those who are just piddling with frogs. In what world should someone sell a 300 dollar frog for 45 bucks just to appease someone else? If I can get 300 dollars for a frog I bred, then I will. If it's a reasonable price, someone will pay. If its unreasonable, the market will decide that too, and I will have to lower the price till said frog sells. Such is life. Rarity has always been a driving force in price, always, forever. So what if someone decides to breed frogs to have a side business, or a fulltime business for that matter. You are complaining about them trying to make a buck, when in actuallity they are bringing down the price of frogs for everyone by making them more available. The only rule I place on someone who breeds frogs for a living is they do an honest deal with me. That's all. I feel the same way about ANY business I choose to patronize. You always have the option of NOT paying whatever price for a frog. You can wait until it becomes cheaper. It's your money, after all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: frogface

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,152 Posts
Doug, I am not asking for your respect, I could give a damn less if I had it. And I am NOT referring to you or every breeder. I am pointing out that there are some in the hobby that are just in it to make a buck, yet nothing is said.

Will I argue if I disagree, yes. Aren't you right now? But we don't have to be disrepectful to each other all the time.
As for the Bri-Bri, I don't have the answer. But don't you think this is something we should think about?
Perhaps the former statement was viewed as bickering or disrespectful.

We should reflect upon these issues in lieu of all the information previously recorded on DB. The ones who provided what I know are probably tired of repeating it and have a shorter fuse as a result of other external factors involved.
Have you tried looking the respective up using the Search function? All these paths have been well-trodden before.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,656 Posts
In it for them money has a negative connotation to it..... I love dart frogs, I love the hobby with all of it's faults. I have breeding trio of varaderos what I would like to do is make this hobby for me a self sustaining hobby, so I don't have to reach into my pocket to buy frogs or supplies for my collection. Does that make me in it for the money? I don't think so, If your a business selling frogs then, yes your in it for the money. If your selling frogs and could care less about the hobby and look at it as another way to get paid to make your Ferrari payment yea you could be in it for the money. But if your a hobbyist like myself and others selling the offspring to support your hobby, then no it's NOT in it for the money cause that money ends up back in the hobby wither it be to sponsors, other breeders or members and that money doesn't stay long enough in your hands for it to be considered in it for the money. IMHHO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,322 Posts
1. When someone says You can't keep frogs in a terrarium with others that they don't come into contact with in the wild--What frogs do captive born frogs born and raised in a terrarium come into contact with in the wild

You are making a flawed assumption here.. there is ample evidence that pathogens native to the wild populations are readily carried over into captive populations. As most captive populations are not housed in facilities that controlled to prevent the escape of potentially contaminated feeders or proper disposal of contaminated water or other materials, the risk of a pathogen that has learned to jump hosts is incresed... Examples of persistence of infections are well established...in this and other taxa... .as one example look at the prevelence of simian foamy virus in people or herpes virus in elephants or chelonians...


Ed
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
685 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
This is what I am saying, If I said black, you would all say no it's not, it's white.

What I am referring to is people who have no interest in poision dart frogs other than to breed them till something new comes along to make more money off of.
I am not referring to or trying to offend any of the hobbyists that sell the animals that are bred in their terrariums. I am referring to the ones that pump the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding.
I did not know Doug had Benedicta, and was not making a reference to him or any other hobbyist. He seems to of taken it personally, which I will have to address with him.

Like I said, I am not trying to argue here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,149 Posts
I am referring to the ones that pump the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding.
Any evidence of this or are you just throwing around wild hypotheses?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tony

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,656 Posts
This is what I am saying, If I said black, you would all say no it's not, it's white.

What I am referring to is people who have no interest in poison dart frogs other than to breed them till something new comes along to make more money off of.
I am not referring to or trying to offend any of the hobbyists that sell the animals that are bred in their terrariums. I am referring to the ones that pump the frogs full of drugs to maximize clutch size and induce more frequent breeding.
I did not know Doug had Benedicta, and was not making a reference to him or any other hobbyist. He seems to of taken it personally, which I will have to address with him.

Like I said, I am not trying to argue here.
Yea I understand what your saying and that clarification helps qualify what you mean by "in it for the money" the problem is you will always find them in any hobby especially hobbies that have the ability for people to breed their own product....There is a lot of that in the marine reef hobby over the last few years with high end corals and having them get chopped up into frags and resold for high end dollars. In the end the only thing we can do is not spend our personal money with them and hope the rest catch on to it as well and hopefully they slowly move to another hobby before to many either get burned and newbies get taken for a ride. Along the way respectfully let others know.
 
1 - 20 of 54 Posts
Top