So many hobbyists travel down there, why doesn't anyone get the proper permits to collect and bring back frogs with real site data? The big exporters/importers will never bother...
a beautiful pumilio
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I'm not sure, Tony. If you're not catching a few hundred and shipping them out, perhaps it's not worth the cost and hassle. Maybe you have to be a certain commercial entity (i.e. if you're not getting research collection permits) to get them...and again, maybe there are fees involved. I'm not sure, but in an age of easily acquired GPS coordinates, I just don't understand how we don't have better information than we do. Well...I do. We're dealing with the commercial beast that is just about getting and moving large numbers of animals and they're not concerned with details like site specificity.
The killifish hobbyists collect their own, but they're also doing it because they want to (I assume)--it's what interests them. Perhaps it's not about getting their money's worth through what they breed and are able to collect. I'm not sure. Maybe it IS about having something new, some new wild blood, and they plan to recoup all the costs. I think it would have to be a hobbyist or few who were just passionate about the animals and willing to go through the effort and cost of making it happen.
The killifish hobbyists collect their own, but they're also doing it because they want to (I assume)--it's what interests them. Perhaps it's not about getting their money's worth through what they breed and are able to collect. I'm not sure. Maybe it IS about having something new, some new wild blood, and they plan to recoup all the costs. I think it would have to be a hobbyist or few who were just passionate about the animals and willing to go through the effort and cost of making it happen.
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What exactly would this require? I'd wager that folks like SNDF would most definitely continue doing this if it was profitable. However, by all accounts, my understanding is that the only truly profitable manner is the worst - large scale, jobber type imports.
I'm not sure what is required, but it seems like figuring it out and supporting a hobbyist-led collection trip would be a no-brainer considering the constant complaints about lack of site data. I doubt the big names will ever bother since they are easily selling everything they bring in with best-guess labels, but out of all the hobbyists who travel down there regularly there must be someone who cares about more than just the profit margin.
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Marcus has done this (see the link below). However, I've never seen either of the site specific populations around the hobby? No demand? Or they just disappeared? I wonder how profitable it truly can be after all the costs incurred.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/33252-peru-panama-colombia-suriname.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/33252-peru-panama-colombia-suriname.html
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With the increase in popularity of keeping Dendrobatids (commercially available enclosures, plug-and-play fake bromeliads, etc.) including the large market in Europe and the soon-to-explode hobby scene in Asia, I think we're going to see the focus of interest shift more toward (or continue) collecting large numbers and cashing in on the expanding market potential (which makes sense if this is something you're trying to make a living from...you can't fault anyone for that).
Although the PDF hobby began as a specialist niche hobby and, in some ways, still remains so...my guess is that it will grow to be a more generalist one, and I think it will be up to those hobbyists interested in the more specialized aspects of it to pursue such ventures. It is a hobby for them, and those aspects of it are a fulfilling part of the hobby. It's when you take those parts and try to force them on a commercial system that the two just don't to translate well as each has a primarily different impetus.
Just some thoughts...
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So when we going to Panama, Ron?
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Starting with just travel expense,food,stay,....all the little thing required to just even travel from locale to locale.. thats almost 50% of your profit. Then comes the actual picking and making sure you meet a quota and all the effort that comes with that....shipping......testing,treatment.....after all of the clearing fees and permit fees . Man...now that I think of it, all respect to marcus and his effort. Jobbers are the only ones that win here.
Hope I made some sort of sense
Hope I made some sort of sense
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Not to mention the cost of the helicopter needed to get to Escudo...
Would Escudo need to be re-collected? Isn't it a tiny island with one interbreeding population?
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I was referring to the past rumor of how they were collected.
CITES usually takes a while to catch up on taxonomy, they haven't even recognized Dendrobates being split up yet from what I can see on the site. As I understand it Escudo being reclassified wouldn't necessarily bar their continued export, it would just require that the permits be issued under the new name.
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I believe Ray was referring to the fact that Escudo de Veraguas is a protected marine area and, as such, it is illegal to remove or collect any organisms from within its borders. That would include frogs.
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Here we are talking about all these alternatives for better and improved importation methods and correct locale i.d.ing and even planning out trips!!! Haha ...and for all we know, the gates might be shutting down as we speak. Rumor from a close friend at gladys porter zoo in south tx goes that theres one last shipment before they halt for a while...how true is this?
From what I've been told that rumor circulates pretty much every year. I doubt they will shut down exports and turn away that steady stream of income, but that is just my unsubstantiated opinion.
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That is what the talk is.
Actually it would follow the pattern that those countries have followed in the past. It wasn't uncommon to see some of the Central and South American countries to open up and export animals for a period of 3-7 years followed by a closure of ten to 15 years (Suriname, Guyana, Nicaragua). This way demand for the animals in the market goes back up. I'm not sure how the increase for these animals from Asia is going to play with that scenario as they could just stop exporting to the Western countries.
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