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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We've just added 4 new species of dart frogs to our website!

First, meet the Josh's Frogs' Phyllobates terribilis 'Orange Black Foot', or Golden Poison Dart Frog.

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Second, introducing the Josh's Frogs' Dendrobates auratus 'Melanistic Costa Rican Green & Black' Poison Dart Frog:

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Next up, we have the Josh's Frogs' Ameerga trivatatta 'Orange' Three Striped Poison Arrow Frog:

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Finally, meet the new Josh's Frogs' Dendrobates tinctorius 'Lorenzo' Dyeing Poison Arrow Frogs:

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You can visit our website to learn more about these amazing new additions to the Josh's Frogs family!
 

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I keep and breed three localities of P. terribilis. I've successfully raised a few hundred at this point. That doesn't make me an "expert" but it gives me a great deal of practical experience.

@joshsfrogs some of your information is poor for the medium to long term care of these frogs. If problems aren't immediately apparent via your recommendations, it's almost certain that persistent sub-optimal conditions will result in a failure to thrive and in some cases disease and death.

We had a discussion in another thread wherein you acknowledged "there are other ways of doing things" but I'm not sure this will result in you changing any of your recommendations?

Nothing against you personally, but I can't read this stuff and pretend you're giving customers -- many of them brand new -- solid information. Things like this may work for a while but they'll cause problems down the road. And I know this because we see people posting here every week wondering why their frogs aren't doing well.

"Recommended Vivarium Size: A 10 gallon aquarium is suitable for a single Phyllobates terribilis 'Orange Black Foot', but Josh's Frogs recommends a 29G or 24x18x18 Vivarium for 1-3 frogs."


These are large, active frogs and they do get territorial. A 10 gallon aquarium isn't suitable for anything but a temporary froglet grow-out at best. 24 X 18 X 18 is still too small in the long run.

"Temperature:
They can tolerate a temperature range of 65 F to 80 F,"

While there is anecdotal evidence of healthy frogs tolerating 80F, that's not taking into account complicated factors like air movement for evaporative cooling and sits right on the danger zone. If you're selling to rank beginners you're setting them up for problems. 77F is much safer for the top end.

"Humidity: Like most poison dart frogs, terribs prefer a humidity range of 70 – 100%,"

Particularly for this species, dry-out periods and air movement are necessary. 100% humidity or close to it is asking for trouble.

This information is outdated, has no safety margins for beginner learning curves, and sets people up to lose frogs.


I'm not trying to start a pile-on or vendetta against you, but you need to take a second look at what you're telling people. Vendors in general would do well to focus their efforts on selling top quality gear, accessories and husbandry aids instead of selling massive volumes of frogs in tiny tanks.
 

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Yes, can you please update your vivarium size recommendations. To most new hobbyists you are the experts; can you please push people towards bigger tanks. Financially you might sell a few more frogs to beginners but you lose those repeat customers and credibility when they learn your advice wasn't expert advice. Something along the lines of we recommend 18x24 as the absolute minimum size but these frogs will love as much space as they can get. I also think you should have some pictures of A+ examples to get people inspired. Most people would spend a few hundred dollars to keep an animal alive but would be willing to spend real money to have an awesome rainforest tank in their house.
 

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To fill the money loss gap of not enabling a dollar a gallon consumer appeal environments etc, Push; ie more strongly campaign and inform about good stuff that has no deficits like cork bark.

Create a Quarantine Kit. Count the times Quarantine is recommended across threads. When people need to Q their frogs, and there can be many reasons besides illness, they often have to scramble and the resulting containment can be problematic. And for sick frogs a sketchy, cool, poorly ventilated Q situation is worse than not isolating the frog at all.

Suggest always having Amphibian Ringers for emergencies. Its critical for ailing phibs and can do no harm applied correctly. Strongly support pre expiration renewal. Like the vitamins advice.

There are many ways to forge new pathways of resource with animal care.

But if the provider co signs a lesser option a consumer will take that road.

If its been determined that the 10 gallon tank people are a lucrative chunk, its up to provider to stand or sit. But the gap can be narrowed with positive, insightful alternatives.
 

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Sorry to kind of pile on here, but as someone who is pretty new to the hobby, I do feel I was personally led astray by Josh’s Frogs. I started out with all of their blog posts and videos and thought it was authoritative info, on top of which, the beginner kit that I ended up with seemed suitable because they said it was suitable—for thumbnails. Which is why I ended up with a 10 gallon 12x12x18 exo terra to start with. As well as things that I didn’t even need, like a bunch of spaghnum, which was a pain to take out once my tank was established for a few weeks but I came on here and learned otherwise.

I ended up rethinking my plans for a thumbnail, getting an epipedobates pair instead. I also ended up working to make that tank temporary, a grow out, while building a larger and more suitable home while feeling like I’d messed up badly by going along with the Josh Frogs kit. I can say with certainty that that damaged my respect for the company, and I don’t think it’s right to sell such small tanks for the smaller dart frogs, because that is straight up erroneous and misleading to beginners. I’m glad I got onto this site, because otherwise I would’ve wasted my money and emotional energy on some ranitomeya that would not have thrived/survived in the tiny, spaghnum-mushy tank by following all of Josh’s Frogs‘ set up advice.

I am intrigued by this beautiful new set, and while I might be interested in a black auratus or orange Blackfoot terribilis someday (albeit I’m quite a ways off from adding more species to my collection), I’m highly unlikely to get frogs from JF vs. any of the hobbyist breeders out there who care more about the conditions their frogs are going to be raised in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Was the melanistic auratus a locality or selected for in captivity?
This is an uncommon morph that cropped up in one of our breeding groups. We recommend housing them with typically colored Costa Rican auratus, and avoiding line breeding for this coloration.
 

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Are the Blackfoot terribilis Tesoros line, or Josh's Frogs (as you have them labeled)?
They have them listed as provided from their certified breeder program (so not bred at Josh's). I thought all blackfoots are from the 2012 tesoros import though? Josh's site mentions them at the bottom of the page too
 

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They have them listed as provided from their certified breeder program (so not bred at Josh's). I thought all blackfoots are from the 2012 tesoros import though? Josh's site mentions them at the bottom of the page too
Tesoros has had them on their pricelist subsequent to that first year, so there may have been any number that came in afterwards.
 
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