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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have the old line from Tuss Taylor and know of other long term froggers with Bri Bri from 15 yrs+ ago...

IMO the new import frogs being labeled BriBri look to just be a redder form of "El Dorado".

I would hate to see 'real' CR Bri Bri lines being mixed up with these new animals....

Anyone have 'proof' of the new imports origins?

I havent personally seen frogs from lines we have always called BriBri in the past having the spotting I see on these new animals, or the lesser red color which just looks 'off'..

..and in general this morph has always been very rare until recently.

Makes me suspicious

Then again isnt naming/ ID'ing frogs by look, perilous for all, me included? :eek:

What I know as a Bri Bri



And these are big frogs BTW..."Black Jeans" size if you are familiar.
 

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I would def keep em seperate......by import year or close to it.

C.R "Bri Bri" are a bit bigger than everything I've seen labeled "Eldorado" in the past 4 years.

Both morphs are probably somewhat variable. The geogpraphic pumilio range around the village of Bri Bri Costa Rica most likely extends some distance into Panama.

Yep, confusing as always....
 

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Don't know how much weight you want to put on this as I won't name names, (feedback and all that).
I spoke to someone on the phone this morning. I think you would all agree he knows a bit about pumilio. He saw a recent offering of "bri-bri" on here and says no way are they bri-bri.
 

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How badly does the hobby want to track this information?

The genetic tools exist, and are quite easy to use, to choose the right gene regions to track population level differences. We do it with all sorts of other things, salmon for example. We can track salmon to the individual rivers of their birth genetically.

Salmon however, are big business. PDF's are merely beloved.

What would be required would be pairing a 'morph guide' style approach, with the appropriate sequence data.

Then should a question arise about "BriBri 2011" being the same/different as "BriBri 1993", we would have a tool to answer it. Right now the foxes are guarding the hen house, and we are at the mercy of the folks who are commercially exploiting wild frogs when it comes to names and locales. Not an avenue I'm in favor of.

What would it cost? If we could come up with a single gene region or a series of microsatelites that would do the job (which is possible, but more would be better), and sampled (toe clip, or egg, or tadpole tail tip) say 15 frogs from each locality in the current morph guide (48 including all the Escudo 'Red'/ Escudo 'Blue' nonsense), and figured about $4 a two way sequence, then a ballpark cost would be $3000.00 for the genetics. Add in plane fare, and gas for the horrible open boat you'll use to get around Bocas/Valiente/Escudo, and some bus tickets for the mainland, and you could still develop a workable library for under $10,000.

Then post the sequences. When the next same/different question comes up, someone lops off a sacrificial toe and pays $15 to have it sequenced using our population level pumilio primer.
"Ah HA! now I know! no more import years for me!"

So how bad does the hobby want it? Enough to get ASN/TWI to fund a Master's project for some youngbuck who'll do the work? Enough to convince USFWS that the protection of BriBri is important enough that we need the tool to bust smugglers? Enough to call BS on frog 'ranches' that are stripping frog populations and providing crappy locale info?

-Afemoralis
 

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My understanding is that "Bri Bri" and "El Dorado" are most likely the same frog...the same population...but clinal variations at opposite ends of the population. Bri Bri are the frogs that came out of Costa Rica, and 'El Dorado" was the fancy, marketable name given to the ones collected in Panama from the southern extant of the population. If these are what we would understand to be Bri Bri, then it would mean illegal collection from Costa Rica.

My assumption is that they are El Dorado from Panama which are being marketed as Bri Bri, either ignorantly or for a higher profit than they would get by selling them as El Dorado.
 

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Then should a question arise about "BriBri 2011" being the same/different as "BriBri 1993", we would have a tool to answer it. Right now the foxes are guarding the hen house, and we are at the mercy of the folks who are commercially exploiting wild frogs when it comes to names and locales. Not an avenue I'm in favor of.

What would it cost? If we could come up with a single gene region or a series of microsatelites that would do the job (which is possible, but more would be better), and sampled (toe clip, or egg, or tadpole tail tip) say 15 frogs from each locality in the current morph guide (48 including all the Escudo 'Red'/ Escudo 'Blue' nonsense), and figured about $4 a two way sequence, then a ballpark cost would be $3000.00 for the genetics. Add in plane fare, and gas for the horrible open boat you'll use to get around Bocas/Valiente/Escudo, and some bus tickets for the mainland, and you could still develop a workable library for under $10,000.

Then post the sequences. When the next same/different question comes up, someone lops off a sacrificial toe and pays $15 to have it sequenced using our population level pumilio primer.
"Ah HA! now I know! no more import years for me!"

So how bad does the hobby want it? Enough to get ASN/TWI to fund a Master's project for some youngbuck who'll do the work? Enough to convince USFWS that the protection of BriBri is important enough that we need the tool to bust smugglers? Enough to call BS on frog 'ranches' that are stripping frog populations and providing crappy locale info?
This could be a definite possibility. Funding and the proper point person/researcher would be key.
 

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Afemoralis.... Sorry if this is off topic, but you have got the idea. This is exactly what this hobby needs. I am only new to this passion but feel that with all the frogs and all the "Identifying" going on we are bound to just get a mess of many similar morphs.

I am not sure how serious you were regarding this proposition but I would do what I could to help and would surely throw some cash towards this great idea.
 

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My assumption is that they are El Dorado from Panama which are being marketed as Bri Bri, either ignorantly or for a higher profit than they would get by selling them as El Dorado.
My guess would be the higher profit and quicker sales, so lets look at a morph guide. I was told El Dorados are not selling like they were and have become more like Almirantes to the importers/jobbers.

They are pretty frogs.
 

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How badly does the hobby want to track this information?

The genetic tools exist, and are quite easy to use, to choose the right gene regions to track population level differences. We do it with all sorts of other things, salmon for example. We can track salmon to the individual rivers of their birth genetically.

Salmon however, are big business. PDF's are merely beloved.

What would be required would be pairing a 'morph guide' style approach, with the appropriate sequence data.

Then should a question arise about "BriBri 2011" being the same/different as "BriBri 1993", we would have a tool to answer it. Right now the foxes are guarding the hen house, and we are at the mercy of the folks who are commercially exploiting wild frogs when it comes to names and locales. Not an avenue I'm in favor of.

What would it cost? If we could come up with a single gene region or a series of microsatelites that would do the job (which is possible, but more would be better), and sampled (toe clip, or egg, or tadpole tail tip) say 15 frogs from each locality in the current morph guide (48 including all the Escudo 'Red'/ Escudo 'Blue' nonsense), and figured about $4 a two way sequence, then a ballpark cost would be $3000.00 for the genetics. Add in plane fare, and gas for the horrible open boat you'll use to get around Bocas/Valiente/Escudo, and some bus tickets for the mainland, and you could still develop a workable library for under $10,000.

Then post the sequences. When the next same/different question comes up, someone lops off a sacrificial toe and pays $15 to have it sequenced using our population level pumilio primer.
"Ah HA! now I know! no more import years for me!"

So how bad does the hobby want it? Enough to get ASN/TWI to fund a Master's project for some youngbuck who'll do the work? Enough to convince USFWS that the protection of BriBri is important enough that we need the tool to bust smugglers? Enough to call BS on frog 'ranches' that are stripping frog populations and providing crappy locale info?

-Afemoralis
Here's a good start:

J. Susanne Hauswaldt, Ann-Kathrin Ludewig, Miguel Vences, and Heike Prohl (2010). Widespread co-occurrence of divergent mitochondrial haplotype lineages in a Central American species of poison frog (Oophaga pumilio). Journal of Biogeography, 38:711-726
 

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Hey JP, need a project for your postdoc?
Haha, possibly. I may be doing a bit of genetic work for tincs for PhD, so when post-doc rolls around, it's possible to do something like that. The biggest problem at the moment is finding the region of code that really tracks relationships (as I've said before, I'm not convinced with the current papers).

I've actually been wanting to do genetic work on the whole farmed/wild caught thing. If frogs are truly farmed, you'd expect closer genetic relationships than those that were randomly collected in the wild.

So many question, not enough time or money. If I don't roll around to it for post-doc, maybe I'll just have a grad student do it, lol.
 

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Is Ian Wang on this board? Anyone tested his list of 15 microsatellites on captive pumilio? I can't access his 2010 Molecular Ecology paper, does anyone have the PDF?
PM your email address and I'll send you a copy.
 
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