[thepotoo]

I've got this 110 gallon tank I'm setting up to be a paludarium for freshwater archerfish and hopefully something else. Water volume is 50 gallons in the tank, 10-12 inches deep. The land portion will be 1' wide (variable, about half the tank) x 2' high x 4' long.

I can't seem to find information on Darts being kept in a setup like this anywhere. Questions:

Will the water pH of 7.6 be hard on them?
Will the water temperature of 78 F be an issue?
Can the land temp be kept low enough with just a fan?
Smaller frogs will be prey for archers, probably anything less than 1/2 inch. What species would do well in this setup?

I've seen frogs kept in paludariums in other threads, but never with archers. Does anyone have experience with this?

 

[cschub13]

Honestly darts would probably not be the best choice of frogs. That's too much water and the fish could certainly pose a threat as well. Not too mention that's a small portion of land for any frogs that would be big enough to not be eaten by the fish. Not trying to bash the idea by any means! I actually think it sounds like an amazing concept but you would certainly be better off with some species of tree frog!! I suppose the only problem I see is potential breeding with the frogs. Eggs and tads will undoubtedly be eaten by the fish. With good ol' research you should be able to figure out what to do. I'll be sure to keep up with this build. Best of luck!

 

[cschub13]

Sorry I misread, the land portion would be enough for the frogs!! But the other precautions still apply.

 

[Blue_Pumilio]

Archers could eat the darts. You also need to keep them brackish. Instead of darts add some mudskippers and semi-aquatic small crabs.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

IMO this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Any dart frog could quite easily drown in 10 - 12 inches of water. Not to mention the predatory fish. What were you planning on feeding the Archers? Crickets? Large crickets could injure your frogs as well. It's probably best to think of some alternative plan. Perhaps some nice fire belly toads that would take advantage of your water feature.

 

[thepotoo]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate them.

These are Toxotes Microlepis, true freshwater archers, they cannot be kept with salt above 1.005, too low for mudskippers. Also, plants are not viable with salt. Otherwise I would certainly go with a brackish setup.

I found several threads which said no one had ever actually observed a frog drowning. I've also seen numerous builds with frogs and fish (albeit from people with more frog keeping experience than me), so I think as long as the frogs can escape from the water, it shouldn't be an issue.

HOWEVER, the issue of the archers eating the frogs is pretty serious. These archers get to be about 5-6", and can eat fish up to 1" (although they generally go with insects). If there's any risk of them eating the frogs, this plan is off. I cannot find the slightest bit of information on keeping archers with frogs. I realize archers aren't the most commonly kept fish, but it seems like someone would have kept them with frogs at some point.

I was planning on feeding the archers cichlid food, and the occasional flightless fruit fly or young cricket. Fire belly toads could harm the archers, and therefore aren't really viable. I may ask around on some reptile boards, to see if any species of lizard would tolerate that much water (but I fear the answer may be no).

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate them.

These are Toxotes Microlepis, true freshwater archers, they cannot be kept with salt above 1.005, too low for mudskippers. Also, plants are not viable with salt. Otherwise I would certainly go with a brackish setup.

I found several threads which said no one had ever actually observed a frog drowning. I've also seen numerous builds with frogs and fish (albeit from people with more frog keeping experience than me), so I think as long as the frogs can escape from the water, it shouldn't be an issue.

HOWEVER, the issue of the archers eating the frogs is pretty serious. These archers get to be about 5-6", and can eat fish up to 1" (although they generally go with insects). If there's any risk of them eating the frogs, this plan is off. I cannot find the slightest bit of information on keeping archers with frogs. I realize archers aren't the most commonly kept fish, but it seems like someone would have kept them with frogs at some point.

I was planning on feeding the archers cichlid food, and the occasional flightless fruit fly or young cricket. Fire belly toads could harm the archers, and therefore aren't really viable. I may ask around on some reptile boards, to see if any species of lizard would tolerate that much water (but I fear the answer may be no).

To address a few of your comments:
I've never burned my eyes out by looking directly at the sun, nor have I ever witnessed a drowning frog, however I'm not willing to take a chance experiencing either event. Especially when both are avoidable by using common sense. Frogs are not more or less expendable than archers. Yet you probably wouldn't house that 5" - 6" archer with a cichlid that get 14" right? Why? Because the cichlid would eat the archer, the same thing applies to dart frogs. Maybe there is a reason no one has kept archers with frogs, maybe it's just a bad idea.

The only lizards that might appreciate a fair amount of water would be perhaps a Mertens Monitor, but it would eat the archers. A basilisk or water dragon, but they would need additional height as they are pretty arboreal. Other possibilities might be a caiman lizard or a Chinese crocodile lizard.

 

[cschub13]

Anoles or certain arboreal geckos such as day geckos should be fine, provided they have enough land and vegetation to climb on.

 

[thepotoo]

Rusty_Shackleford, that was exactly the reply I was looking for. I'll reevaluate Dart frogs some time in the future for other tanks.

I'm going to look more seriously at geckos and other lizards for this setup.

 

[Rusty_Shackleford]

thepotoo, cool. I just wanted you to think about the fact that dart frogs aren't accessories to complete your archerfish tank. They are indeed deserving of a habitat of their own that staisifes their needs. If you had turned the question around and said I'm looking for fish to put in my dart frog tank I promise no one would have suggested archers. Not that they aren't cool fish because they are very cool. One of the coolest tanks I've ever seen was in a pet store and they had a large probably 50 gal or better hex tank set up. I sat there for 1/2 hour and watched two archers spitting water at full grown crickets on the branches over hanging the water. It was quite a show.

 

[thepotoo]

Yeah, I wouldn't dream of keeping something if I couldn't provide a perfect habitat for it. Hence, no frogs today.

 

[hydrophyte]

Do you know necessarily have to have an animal in the abovewater portion? You could get a really nice display by just focusing on setting up the fish as well as possible and getting some cool plants to grow above water. A riparium style setup would be the easiest way to do that and there are some really fantastic plants that would be well-suited to that.

Cyrtosperma jonstonii is a good example of a plant that would grow well like that and could make your abovewater portion plenty engaging...

 

[aberreef]

Never kept them, so not sure if they'd be suitable or not, but would Waxy Monkey frogs be suitable?

 

[mantisdragon91]

Never kept them, so not sure if they'd be suitable or not, but would Waxy Monkey frogs be suitable?

I would not suggest waxies for multiple reasons. More Geographicly appropriate species would include dumpy tree frogs, white lipped tree frogs, Tokay geckos, skunk geckos, and emerald tree skinks.

 

[FRISCHFROGS]

Darts would be the oil and the Archers would be water!
Oil n water do not mix.
Archers do not come from South America or Central America so they do not mix in nature. I feel they will Not mix captivity.
It is a disaster waiting to happen.
Rethink your idea.

 

[oneshot]

Don't know if you saw this, and I don't know what he has on the "land area" but even if it's just for inspiration:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52841-300gal-paludarium-project.html

And he has some videos of his archer fish shooting at pellets on the side glass, pretty cool!

 

[thepotoo]

Yes, I saw that, it's pretty inspirational. Lots of people on that thread were suggesting frogs, which gave me the idea.

He ended up with nothing in his land area. I might go the same route.

 

[skanderson]

mossy frogs might be large enough to keep in a setup like you are describing. just to mention something you may have already noticed, not alot of people on this forum like mixing anything with anything. keep us informed on the build.

 

[Blue_Pumilio]

Curious where you are going to get the freshwater archers? I have not seen them for sale. Either way, go for a bigger frog. Perhaps mossys.

 

[thepotoo]

My LFS gets them in sometimes, and can order a larger group for me. I've looked at them and confirmed that they are indeed Toxotes microlepis (spots on tail are not connected to spots on body; smaller spots on body in between stripes).

Right now, I'm leaning towards Day Geckos, a Green Basilisk, or nothing. I know very little about reptiles (haven't owned one in almost a decade), so I've got a lot of research to do.