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Old 04-28-2013, 03:50 PM
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Question BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Need help on trying to breed these guys. I have had the hardest time gathering information on them and the info is so vague!!! NO help what so ever. My 2 females are LOADED with eggs...i can see their eggs right through their translucent skin. Just need help if anyone is willing to offer.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:59 PM
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Sorry I can't be of service but I had to tell you, the frog on your arm is so cute!
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Old 04-28-2013, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

I wonder if it's a matter of timing their wet period. Apparently the Eastern Arc Mountain area has bi-modal rainfall; Oct-Dec and Mar-May.

(I have no experience with these frogs. Just what I gathered from a quickie search)
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

apparently NO ONE has ever bred them in captivity. Good luck! Those are my favorite tree frogs



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Old 04-28-2013, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

I have a large group of these.These are by far my favorite tree frogs.I have a bunch of females in egg also.Below is a link to a post I started and shows some pics of some of my females in egg.They need to drop their eggs or you may lose them.They have very limited info on them as you now know.They like to lay their eggs near the waters edge.Some of mine have burrowed in the dirt,so hopefully they are depositing eggs.They are different from most tree frogs in the respect that they are ovipositors.They are VERY temperature sensitive.That's as much as I have been able to find out about them.I hope some of this helps.Good luck and please share any info you discover.




http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tre...frog-pics.html
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Originally Posted by oddlot View Post
I have a large group of these.These are by far my favorite tree frogs.I have a bunch of females in egg also.Below is a link to a post I started and shows some pics of some of my females in egg.They need to drop their eggs or you may lose them.They have very limited info on them as you now know.They like to lay their eggs near the waters edge.Some of mine have burrowed in the dirt,so hopefully they are depositing eggs.They are different from most tree frogs in the respect that they are ovipositors.They are VERY temperature sensitive.That's as much as I have been able to find out about them.I hope some of this helps.Good luck and please share any info you discover.




http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tre...frog-pics.html
Lou, when you say they are temp sensitive, do you mean in terms of breeding or just keeping in general? Is this an African species?
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

From Tanzania



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Old 04-28-2013, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Lou, when you say they are temp sensitive, do you mean in terms of breeding or just keeping in general? Is this an African species?
Keeping In general.They are montane so over 85 can be critical.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

ODDLOT,

You and I need to get cracking on research before we lose our ladies =/
Im going to call some scientists thats i went to college with on the bimolecular field to see if they have some people they talk to that might be able to contribute on this matter. I told the pet-store i purchased them from i would breed them for them if possible, so they gave them to be at book value ($18.00 Each) compared to the 34.99 they had them listed at on the shelf. To many reports of ZERO success on breeding them. You and I must change this!!! =) Talk to you soon. I WILL post anything if possible. I got an idea from a 1928 article that in tanks with soil.... it must FLOOD the soil and have enough water above the soil for tadpoles to rise from the dirt once its flooded...but its all TIMING! Truely and ADVANCED level frog. WHat a challenge... =) It will give me a break from the 250 red eyes im trying to give up =P
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Originally Posted by Spaff View Post
Lou, when you say they are temp sensitive, do you mean in terms of breeding or just keeping in general? Is this an African species?
I'm interested in more temp info too. In my searching, I learned that the cool period is May-August (60-70ish) with short rains March-May and the hot period is Nov-Feb (high 70 to high 80s) with long rains Oct-Dec. Have you tried duplicating temp/rain conditions?

Or is that only in the lower areas?

eta: nvm looks like temps are cooler than that in the mountain area.
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post
ODDLOT,

You and I need to get cracking on research before we lose our ladies =/
Im going to call some scientists thats i went to college with on the bimolecular field to see if they have some people they talk to that might be able to contribute on this matter. I told the pet-store i purchased them from i would breed them for them if possible, so they gave them to be at book value ($18.00 Each) compared to the 34.99 they had them listed at on the shelf. To many reports of ZERO success on breeding them. You and I must change this!!! =) Talk to you soon. I WILL post anything if possible. I got an idea from a 1928 article that in tanks with soil.... it must FLOOD the soil and have enough water above the soil for tadpoles to rise from the dirt once its flooded...but its all TIMING! Truely and ADVANCED level frog. WHat a challenge... =) It will give me a break from the 250 red eyes im trying to give up =P

If you can send me a copy of that article I'd appreciate it.You can pm or email it.
Thanks,
Lou
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Old 04-28-2013, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Originally Posted by frogface View Post
I'm interested in more temp info too. In my searching, I learned that the cool period is May-August (60-70ish) with short rains March-May and the hot period is Nov-Feb (high 70 to high 80s) with long rains Oct-Dec. Have you tried duplicating temp/rain conditions?

Or is that only in the lower areas?

eta: nvm looks like temps are cooler than that in the mountain area.
Temps are definitely cooler which is why 85 or over is not good.I haven't yet duplicated temps or rain.Temps drop even lower at night,that's going to be the difficult part.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:38 PM
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Exclamation Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

I THINK I FIGURED OUT WHY THEY DONT BREED IN CAPTIVITY! After reading the specifics on almost all of the info i could find. ANYONE would overlook it. They lay eggs in the mudd near rivers and creaks. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

You need to simulate a river/creek in your vivarium that rises up and down based on moon formations. aka TIDE!

I bet most people just made a solid form of water with just a common filtration system which would NOT WORK. Im going to give it a go. ALSO i bet NO one put a banana plant in their vivarium which is where you find them. This will not be a cheap project but i think i can simulate it with lots of construction. Ill need a new 80-100 gallon vivarium to do this...ughh...ill take donations =/. Hey worth a shot right?

SECOND- they are montane species. ALTITUDE PRESSURE IS A FACTOR AS WELL!!! (VERY HARD TO REPLICATE)!!!!

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Old 04-29-2013, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Yup, I stated earlier that they are montane species which also means the temps drop a bit at night.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Forget decreased atmospheric pressure from high elevations. Plenty of montane species are bred without it



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Old 04-29-2013, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Why forget it? IF the success rate is ZERO. Its always a possibility.

Obviously im going to simulate the running river water in a new vivarium because it will only cost a couple hundred. Atmospheric pressure chamber is going to cost me a couple thousand with NITROGEN bottles. But you can't just "FORGET IT" when its a natural setting they are accustomed used to.

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Old 04-29-2013, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

You are going to hook a vacuum up to your tank? How do you plan to use Nitrogen to decrease the pressure in a non pressure rated vessel?



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Old 04-29-2013, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

There has been much success in breeding montane species without any alteration of pressure. It's ridiculous. Proper stimuli for breeding and appropriate deposition sites are far more important



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Old 04-29-2013, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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You are going to hook a vacuum up to your tank? How do you plan to use Nitrogen to decrease the pressure in a non pressure rated vessel?
Nitrogen does not decrease the pressure! (Thats what the vacuum pressure is for)
Nitrogen with a Molecular Mass of 28 is lighter than Oxygen with a Mol.mass of 32.The N2 tends to move toward the higher altitudes while the O2 tends to stay below it. The reason that the partial separation doesn't take place lower down is, that the air at lower altitudes has more movement and is constantly mixing due to winds, convection currents and temperature changes...etc. When you go higher in altitude there is more nitrogen present in the atmosphere. (oxygen weighs more so it is more abundant closer to sea level) (thats why we need oxygen masks at higher altitude) Not like the frogs are in that extreme of an environment, but the more abundant nitrogen may have an HUGE effect on their breeding patterns. JUST a thought =) (getting the proper ratio of nitrogen vs. oxygen will be the hardest part of that. So I thought about using liquid nitrogen at the top of the tank and let the gases fall to the bottom. (BY THE WAY THIS IS REALLY REALLY GOOD FOR PLANT GROWTH AND ALSO KILLS UNWANTED PESTS [INSECTS] IN YOUR VIVARIUM AS WELL when used in large quantities.)

Last edited by CJ PELCH; 04-29-2013 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Also..yes proper disposition sites are VERY IMPORTANT..but very easy to simulate. But unless you have ALL THE FACTORS needed for that specific species your not going to get results. This frog is one of the few tree frogs that lays eggs in SOIL! SPECIAL FROG REQUIRES SPECIAL NEEDS.... I will do my best to simulate all aspects of this NEEDY FROG. =)
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Show me ONE zoological breeding program that attempted to alter the pressure or gas mixture of a controlled environment to simulate montane conditions. Atmospheric nitrogen is UNUSABLE BY PLANTS, by the way without nitrogen fixing bacteria, so that argument goes right out the window.



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Old 04-29-2013, 03:16 AM
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Cj, wish I could be of some help to you. Your passion for the hobby is wonderful. I ll be rooting and cheering you on! Please keep us all updated!

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laissez le bon temps roulet! :-)
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post

You need to simulate a river/creek in your vivarium that rises up and down based on moon formations. aka TIDE!
I'm actually pretty shocked at the poor quality of the ideas in this thread... I'm really interested in knowing why you think that there are suffiicent tidal volume changes in the habitat of these frogs... particularly since they are dound on inland mountains.... and the water bodies are not tidal and are not large enough to be tidal...( as a counter example a maximum tide on the great lakes is less than 5 cm (see Do the Great Lakes have tides?)....

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post
I bet most people just made a solid form of water with just a common filtration system which would NOT WORK. Im going to give it a go. ALSO i bet NO one put a banana plant in their vivarium which is where you find them. This will not be a cheap project but i think i can simulate it with lots of construction. Ill need a new 80-100 gallon vivarium to do this...ughh...ill take donations =/. Hey worth a shot right?
You are again using bad information here.... The fact that they are known to lay thier eggs near water does not automatically mean that they need to lay them in mud.... Many amphibians with this biology do not use saturated (mud) buried sites as this deprives the eggs of oxygen... So I'm skeptical that this is the cue... IN addition, there is variation within the genus as to whether they deposit the eggs on the surface or buried in moist leaf litter or moist soil...
The observation that they are often found on banana leaves is being taken out of context since it was made with reference to the frog's tolerating disturbed sites and does not mean that they require banana leaves in any fashion (see Leptopelis uluguruensis for the real information...).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post
SECOND- they are montane species. ALTITUDE PRESSURE IS A FACTOR AS WELL!!! (VERY HARD TO REPLICATE)!!!!
This is also incorrect.... the data is clear on this as well... they are not montane but submontane... There is a huge diifference between the two....

If it is actually your intention to breed these frogs then I would suggest starting out by getting the basic information correct.....

Some comments

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Old 04-29-2013, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post
Nitrogen does not decrease the pressure! (Thats what the vacuum pressure is for)
Nitrogen with a Molecular Mass of 28 is lighter than Oxygen with a Mol.mass of 32.The N2 tends to move toward the higher altitudes while the O2 tends to stay below it. The reason that the partial separation doesn't take place lower down is, that the air at lower altitudes has more movement and is constantly mixing due to winds, convection currents and temperature changes...etc. When you go higher in altitude there is more nitrogen present in the atmosphere.
There isn't any real change in percent composition of oxygen to nitrogen at an altitude that is going to be relevent to the frogs (70,000 feet or lower)......


Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post
(oxygen weighs more so it is more abundant closer to sea level) (thats why we need oxygen masks at higher altitude)
At this point I'm trying to decide if you are a troll or not.. This is a huge load of crap. The reason you need masks at higher altitudes (say under 70,000 feet) is not because the oxygen is staying closer to the planet but because the total pressure of air is less which means that although the ratio of O2 to N2 (and other gases) stays the same the partial pressure of O2 decreases resulting in a reduction in O2 that can be absorbed... This is basic gas law stuff...



Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post
Not like the frogs are in that extreme of an environment, but the more abundant nitrogen may have an HUGE effect on their breeding patterns. JUST a thought =) (getting the proper ratio of nitrogen vs. oxygen will be the hardest part of that. So I thought about using liquid nitrogen at the top of the tank and let the gases fall to the bottom. (BY THE WAY THIS IS REALLY REALLY GOOD FOR PLANT GROWTH AND ALSO KILLS UNWANTED PESTS [INSECTS] IN YOUR VIVARIUM AS WELL when used in large quantities.)
Nitrogen is not good for plant growth unless it is fixed in the form of ammonia or nitrate... Nice BS effort though.. You are aware at decreasing the ratio of oxygen to nitrogen is a good way to induce inert gas suffocation?.... In addition, I would like to know which frog is found above 70,000 feet....

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Old 04-29-2013, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
I'm actually pretty shocked at the poor quality of the ideas in this thread... I'm really interested in knowing why you think that there are suffiicent tidal volume changes in the habitat of these frogs... particularly since they are dound on inland mountains.... and the water bodies are not tidal and are not large enough to be tidal...( as a counter example a maximum tide on the great lakes is less than 5 cm (see Do the Great Lakes have tides?)....



You are again using bad information here.... The fact that they are known to lay thier eggs near water does not automatically mean that they need to lay them in mud.... Many amphibians with this biology do not use saturated (mud) buried sites as this deprives the eggs of oxygen... So I'm skeptical that this is the cue... IN addition, there is variation within the genus as to whether they deposit the eggs on the surface or buried in moist leaf litter or moist soil...
The observation that they are often found on banana leaves is being taken out of context since it was made with reference to the frog's tolerating disturbed sites and does not mean that they require banana leaves in any fashion (see Leptopelis uluguruensis for the real information...).



This is also incorrect.... the data is clear on this as well... they are not montane but submontane... There is a huge diifference between the two....

If it is actually your intention to breed these frogs then I would suggest starting out by getting the basic information correct.....

Some comments

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I don't quite get it. You are debunking everything. No one has bred them, so maybe some of the ideas listed will work? Maybe shoot down every idea so nobody tries?
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:56 AM
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I don't quite get it. You are debunking everything. No one has bred them, so maybe some of the ideas listed will work? Maybe shoot down every idea so nobody tries?
I'm not debunking everything.. just the crap that is easily disproven by a basic understanding of thier habitat and a little high school science...

So we should let bad information stay based on the claim no one has tried it? We wouldn't let people try bad information of this caliber on dart frogs.....

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Old 04-29-2013, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

How many animals have to die?! A lot fewer with better research and preparation.



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Old 04-29-2013, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post
ALSO BANANA PLANTS...IM DOING MY GOSH DARN BEST TO SIMULATE THE NATURAL ENVIRONMENT!!!! HOW COULD IT HURT TO PUT A BANANA PLANT IN THE ENVIRONMENT! OH AND THE NITROGEN THING WITH VIVARIUM...IT HAS BEEN TESTED AND RESULTS WERE POSTED ON YOUTUBE>>>LOOK IT UP!!! SINCE YOU MADE NO ATTEMPT TO HELP ME BUT RATHER BASH ME... I WILL MAKE NO EFFORT FOR YOU ON GIVING YOU THE LINKS WHERE I DID MY RESEARCH!!! YOU INCONSIDERATE PERSON!! YOU ALSO BASHED THE MODERATOR "OBLOTT" because he has been doing the research as well.
Regarding banana plants....in my experience these are almost always used as a secondary option for breeding by frogs. Typically these are found in disturbed areas which lack the frogs' primary host plants. This holds true everywhere I've been, and I've traveled quite a bit through the tropics.

Best of luck with these frogs though mate, they are cool.

Last edited by easternversant; 04-29-2013 at 04:32 AM. Reason: Grammar!
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:33 AM
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Regarding banana plants....in my experience these are almost always used as a secondary option for breeding by frogs. Typically these are found in disturbed areas which lack the frogs' primary host plants. This holds true everywhere I've been, and I've traveled quite a bit through the tropics.

Best of luck with these frogs though mate, they are cool.
THanks...ill do my best... im going to start with the running river water simulation...beyond that suggestions would be nice
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:42 AM
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THanks...ill do my best... im going to start with the running river water simulation...beyond that suggestions would be nice
Unfortunately I don't have any experience with this species. I would start with the link Ed gave you, it is the IUCN redlist page. They say: It inhabits wet submontane rainforest, but can tolerate slight disturbance and is sometimes found in banana patches in forest clearings. However, it is never found in open areas away from mature forest. Its breeding biology is unknown, but it presumably breeds in water, and males call near streams. The eggs are probably laid in nests on land, not far from water (either streams or temporary pools).

I would have a stream setup with places to lay in the water, on the land, and on plants over land and overhanging the water. A rain chamber type setup may help them get going as well. That is the best I can offer since I'm not going to take the time to further research them.

If I were you I'd do a google scholar search though.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:44 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

If egg deposition is in holes in the soil, I'd make my focus on a floodable loam deposition area near the water source, with plants overhanging and a decent rain chamber design



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Old 04-29-2013, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

i always start with that site...already read it... =P
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:46 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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If egg deposition is in holes in the soil, I'd make my focus on a floodable loam deposition area near the water source, with plants overhanging and a decent rain chamber design

I would but theirs no proof of it anywhere... people just making assumptions...sigh.. To many "PROBABLY's" Or "MIGHT BE's"
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

I tell ya... if i am able to breed these guys and get eggs and tadpoles..you guys better apologize i swear. IN THE ODD CHANCE THAT HAPPENS! Ill give you guys the benefit of the DOUBT.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

Message to *everyone* posting here.

Information has been given. You may not like the information - but I'd lower the rhetoric a bit please.

If you have nothing good to say - do not say anything.

Any further abuses will result in further infractions.

s
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:42 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Message to *everyone* posting here.

Information has been given. You may not like the information - but I'd lower the rhetoric a bit please.

If you have nothing good to say - do not say anything.

Any further abuses will result in further infractions.

s
Dont worry guys i requested through kyle to have my account deleted... Ill save you all the trouble... ME GONE... GO attack someone else so they can come to our other reliable and FRIENDLY FORUMS! =)
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:43 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Cj, wish I could be of some help to you. Your passion for the hobby is wonderful. I ll be rooting and cheering you on! Please keep us all updated!

.:* Lisa *:.
laissez le bon temps roulet! :-)

Ill see you on the FF lisa... =)
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:51 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

The message wasn't just for you.

But of course, we've heard you say this before - so maybe it's better this way.

s
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Dont worry guys i requested through kyle to have my account deleted... Ill save you all the trouble... ME GONE... GO attack someone else so they can come to our other reliable and FRIENDLY FORUMS! =)
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

This forum has more valuable information and advanced advice than all the other forums combined. Debunking not only erroneous, but dangerous hearsay is a vital part of what the forums are all about.
I honestly hope that many people have success with this frog! It is my favorite tree frog genus, and it's a shame that captive breeding success has proved so elusive. Heeding the advice of individuals with decades of amphibian zoological husbandry will be a big part of that success eventually.
I think that along with proper deposition sites, a dry estivation period might be a key to success.



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Old 04-29-2013, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: BREEDING Letopelis uluguruensis (RUBY EYE TREE FROG)

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Dont worry guys i requested through kyle to have my account deleted... Ill save you all the trouble... ME GONE... GO attack someone else so they can come to our other reliable and FRIENDLY FORUMS! =)
Looks like you’ve been Kowalski’d. We’ve all been there.

Ed is a professional herpetologist who seems to know, well, everything. Once you realize that his only motivation is the wellbeing of the animals and separating fact from fiction (also known as voodoo husbandry), you see what an amazing asset he is to the hobby and the board.

He enjoys a good scientific debate, just be prepared to show your work.
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