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Old 03-22-2012, 09:55 AM
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Default Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

I'm re-posting this from the other thread so people can actually find it and talk about it.

BBC News - Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

Definitely a good read, very eye opening.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:49 AM
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At this point I say yes. Scientists can exchange that info privately when needed. As far as publishing locale specifics I see little need for the general public to have access to this information. It kind of seems like a roadmap to extinction to me.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:15 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

One of the important things in a description of a new taxon is the type locality. Without stating one, the description is practically worthless. I get the point of course, but I don't think it'd be anywhere near practical to rely on personal communication if needed. This kind of information keeps its validity and people are still likely to be scientifically interested in location data a hunderd years or more from now. I don't really think the scientist who published the description in the first place will be able to answer any questions by then...

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Old 03-22-2012, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

I think there should be a data base open to the scientific community where the location should be posted but not available to the general public....I would say of you want to slip me the info, I'ld be cool with it..
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

I brought this up in 95 on the Big Bend Nat Park Spring Survey. The first thing that stood out to me was River Road( a known locale of Grey Banded Kingsnakes). We were collecting data for all species and GPS coordinates w/ them and it was viewable by anyone visiting the park. Your not supposed to take ANYTHING from BBNP but there is a locale of kings in the hobby from there. It's not only new species that are sought.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:03 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

This is a very sticky subject. As an arachnologist who has done a tremendous amount of fieldwork all over the world, with many of these trips targeting specific species, the locality data from papers and preserved specimens is invaluable. Especially when dealing with rare or difficult to find species.

However, that said, I recently discovered a new genus and species of an arboreal tarantula that would be sought after in the pet trade. I am seriously considering being vague in the paper as to where they are found. The collection labels would have all the info and GPS coordinates, but your average collector won't have access to this info.

Several years ago my good friend, Rick West, was part of a team to go to India to try to rediscover Poecilotheria metallica. This is arguably the most beautiful tarantula in the world. Rick eventually found the first specimen seen in over 100years. Unfortunately, another member of the team quickly released the info to some German and French collectors and within a couple months they were smuggled out of India. That one species probably made the collectors over $100,000 easy. The other unfortunate thing is that the only way to collect them is to cut the tree down and split it with a machete, so precious habitat is destroyed at the same time.

A similar story happened to Rogerio Bertani at Bhutantan in Brazil. A German tarantula "researcher" visited Rogerio and looked at the live and preserved collections. He then took notes on localities and proceeded to go and collect thousands of tarantulas and "brown boxed" them back to Europe. Many of these shipment were lost or died. Acanthoscurria geniculata was one of the main prizes here. This individual was arrested on two separate occasions for doing this. To make things worse, many of Rogerio's future descriptions of new species were then published by another German arachnologist from these same smuggled animals

I think for 99.9% of the descriptions published, the organisms aren't flashy enough to warrant smuggling, but I wouldn't blame a taxonomist for keeping localities secret from the public of those organisms at serious risk.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

If it took this long to discover the species, it means the species likely has a very small habitat or a very small numbers. Based on this knowledge, I'd definitely say yes, the location should be kept a secret.
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

I've done LOTS of vegetation surveys. Isn't it possible to describe the type locality w/out giving out the locality? Description of habitat won't necessarily give away a location, although sometimes it does.

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Originally Posted by sjaakdaak View Post
One of the important things in a description of a new taxon is the type locality. Without stating one, the description is practically worthless. I get the point of course, but I don't think it'd be anywhere near practical to rely on personal communication if needed. This kind of information keeps its validity and people are still likely to be scientifically interested in location data a hunderd years or more from now. I don't really think the scientist who published the description in the first place will be able to answer any questions by then...
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:32 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

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I think there should be a data base open to the scientific community where the location should be posted but not available to the general public....I would say of you want to slip me the info, I'ld be cool with it..
The problem, however, is that not all in the scientific community are conservation minded, unfortunately.

It is a tough question, and something that we are ultimately responsible for. I have seen so many people here interested in the rare and new. When benedicta came out, everyone was wanting them. So how, as a hobby, do we have minimal impact on the animal? I think the answer is supporting organizations like UE. But not everyone does, and not everyone does with all species.

I've seen the same reactions with pumilio morphs, and they're not sustainably collected and bred like what UE does. Fortunately, pumilio is very resilient to such disturbances, but how many other dart frog species have the same story? I know of a few people who know where speciosus is. Fortunately, they haven't let the word slip because otherwise, we'd see this happen with that species.

I don't know what the ultimate solution is, but obviously, the status quo isn't working...
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

Nobody is cutting down canopy forest to collect pumilio.
Im all for keeping exact locations secret to prevent over exploitation.
Noone says "I discovered the worlds biggest diamond deposit...right HERE" Go check it out for yourself



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Old 03-22-2012, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

Its all about the quick buck... Tragic. I was reading Sustaining life: how human health depends on biodiversity - Eric Chivian, Aaron Bernstein, Secretariat of the Convention on Biological Diversity, United Nations Development Programme, United Nations Environment Programme, IUCN--The World Conservation and wondering whether getting pharmaceutical companies involved purely for the money and political clout they have would help. If they can be convinced that there is profit to be made by keeping rainforests intact and sustainable harvesting of species... Thoughts?
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Old 03-22-2012, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

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It is a tough question, and something that we are ultimately responsible for. I have seen so many people here interested in the rare and new. When benedicta came out, everyone was wanting them. So how, as a hobby, do we have minimal impact on the animal? I think the answer is supporting organizations like UE. But not everyone does, and not everyone does with all species.
And species that have been illegally distributed into the hobby there is often a mentality of "well they are here now, so they should be legal" which does nothing but drive smuggling since once it is here it is "okay" to have....

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Old 03-22-2012, 04:06 PM
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There has been a long history of this including it first getting wide spread attention after the publication of Snakes and Snake Hunting by Karl Kauffeld where the areas Kauffeld described were heavily hunted by amatures and collectors resulting in anecdotal claims of habitat destruction as well declining populations. More recently it regained a lot of notoriety with the extirpation at the type locality of Goniurosaurus luii and several incidents (much like Jeremy related).
Protection of the habitat doesn't mean that a species or species won't be unsustainably exploited from the site unless there is some other driver to prevent it from occuring (such as sustainable harvest models) since total protectionism is often economically unfeasible unless there are huge bankrolls devoted to protecting the habitat or the animals. There are some good discussions on it in the literature and I recommend the following (both are free access)
PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect

http://max2.ese.u-psud.fr/epc/conser...s/AAEModel.pdf

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Old 03-22-2012, 04:06 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

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Originally Posted by jacobi View Post
Its all about the quick buck... Tragic. I was reading Sustaining life: how human health depends on biodiversity - Eric Chivian, Aaron Bernstein, Secretariat of the Convention on Biological Diversity, United Nations Development Programme, United Nations Environment Programme, IUCN--The World Conservation and wondering whether getting pharmaceutical companies involved purely for the money and political clout they have would help. If they can be convinced that there is profit to be made by keeping rainforests intact and sustainable harvesting of species... Thoughts?
That is definitely one of the big selling points on rainforest conservation. We don't even know everything that's out there, let alone tested much of it (very minute amount) to understand their chemical properties and what they can be used for. If Brazil saved all of their remaining rainforest and allowed collection and testing (sustainably of course) for pharmaceuticals, they would make WAY more money in the long run than slash and burn agriculture.

It's unfortunate but in order to help the planet you also need to help people and provide profit. Not that it's bad to help people and the economy, but it makes it difficult when conservation and science is already so underfunded.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:14 PM
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Agreed Adam. The other unfortunate thing is that
1. Ethnobotany and the testing of living organisms for pharmaceuticals is way underfunded because people are more focused on purely synthetic drug discovery
2. Ethnobotanical research of indigenous plants in the past has yielded almost NO PROFIT for the country of origin or indigenous peoples..Read the excellent book "The Shamans Apprentice" for more on ethnobotany and drug discovery in the rainforest



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Old 03-22-2012, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

Given a previous thread in this section - I'll warn now that the topic will be adhered to or infractions will be forthcoming.

I've seen nothing yet that would even hint at this - but I'd like to keep it that way.

s
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by frogparty View Post
Agreed Adam. The other unfortunate thing is that
1. Ethnobotany and the testing of living organisms for pharmaceuticals is way underfunded because people are more focused on purely synthetic drug discovery
2. Ethnobotanical research of indigenous plants in the past has yielded almost NO PROFIT for the country of origin or indigenous peoples..Read the excellent book "The Shamans Apprentice" for more on ethnobotany and drug discovery in the rainforest
I should add that the companies doing the testing/discovering would also have to not be incredibly greedy Thanks I will check that out.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Should the location of newly discovered species be hidden?

You should, I think youll really enjoy it. Its right up the alley of what youre talking about



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Old 03-22-2012, 04:47 PM
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That is definitely one of the big selling points on rainforest conservation. We don't even know everything that's out there, let alone tested much of it (very minute amount) to understand their chemical properties and what they can be used for. If Brazil saved all of their remaining rainforest and allowed collection and testing (sustainably of course) for pharmaceuticals, they would make WAY more money in the long run than slash and burn agriculture.

It's unfortunate but in order to help the planet you also need to help people and provide profit. Not that it's bad to help people and the economy, but it makes it difficult when conservation and science is already so underfunded.
Fortunately, I think that there is a green revolution going on, especially in these developing countries. Many governments are realizing that there is greater value in forests being up rather than cut down. There is more and more research going on that shows the benefits to biodiversity, and the profit for maintaining biodiversity. Countries are quickly seeing that rich tourists want to travel to these "wild" areas to see the plants and animals there. The only problem is that this green revolution is not happening fast enough.
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:54 PM
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That is definitely one of the big selling points on rainforest conservation. We don't even know everything that's out there, let alone tested much of it (very minute amount) to understand their chemical properties and what they can be used for. If Brazil saved all of their remaining rainforest and allowed collection and testing (sustainably of course) for pharmaceuticals, they would make WAY more money in the long run than slash and burn agriculture.

It's unfortunate but in order to help the planet you also need to help people and provide profit. Not that it's bad to help people and the economy, but it makes it difficult when conservation and science is already so underfunded.
One example of why countries with rainforests are hesitant to allow bioprospecting is one near to the heart of the dendrobatid community.. it involves a chemical known as epidobatine and the frog from which it was extracted.
The result of that battle are a number of agreements and treaties that many countries (but not the US) have joined.... this is one of the reasons why countries impose so many hurdles to the research by some of those countrie (like the US). Country Profiles

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Old 03-22-2012, 04:55 PM
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Fortunately, I think that there is a green revolution going on, especially in these developing countries. Many governments are realizing that there is greater value in forests being up rather than cut down. There is more and more research going on that shows the benefits to biodiversity, and the profit for maintaining biodiversity. Countries are quickly seeing that rich tourists want to travel to these "wild" areas to see the plants and animals there. The only problem is that this green revolution is not happening fast enough.

Some of the modeling used by zoological institutions predicts that global populations should stabilize in the next 100 to 200 years after which ecosystems should begin to recover.

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Old 03-22-2012, 05:33 PM
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It wasn't long after captivus was rediscovered that the frogs were offered at show X overseas, and for high dollars, I was offered them twice in a year accompanied by intentions of false CITES papers to get them in the US, much like putting a bow on a pig and exporting it as a horse with a free ride to the clink.

Information is so fluid with technology it doesn't take any digging to find out site data anymore. This is why we have El Dorado pumilio instead of sibubi morph or other location. Once the location is public the cash cow gets slaughtered, and like previously mentioned the dollar drives many intentions.

Even if they keep the locations classified it will just be the really wealthy that can bribe for it. Hard dilemma and the best we can do as a hobby is shun the smuggled stuff, hard to suppress the lust for new frogs we can flaunt for attention.

Lots of worm cans to open in this aisle.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:21 PM
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Fortunately, I think that there is a green revolution going on, especially in these developing countries. Many governments are realizing that there is greater value in forests being up rather than cut down. There is more and more research going on that shows the benefits to biodiversity, and the profit for maintaining biodiversity. Countries are quickly seeing that rich tourists want to travel to these "wild" areas to see the plants and animals there. The only problem is that this green revolution is not happening fast enough.
I agree on all accounts except there are still plenty of countries that still aren't seeing the benefit. Or they are dismissing that benefit for dams (China, Brasil) and various other things. If only everyone was as quick to catch on as Costa Rica. But again, I agree that it is definitely moving in that direction. Part of the problem like I said before though, is it has to have those three P's. As long as western civilizations are willing to pay for sustainable agriculture and eco-tourism it'll continue. But I wonder what will happen if it slows? I imagine they would go back to short term gain. If you look at history in our country, we don't exactly learn from past environmental mistakes. Or when new members of congress are elected, they don't care till it hurts their wallet.

Quote:
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One example of why countries with rainforests are hesitant to allow bioprospecting is one near to the heart of the dendrobatid community.. it involves a chemical known as epidobatine and the frog from which it was extracted.
The result of that battle are a number of agreements and treaties that many countries (but not the US) have joined.... this is one of the reasons why countries impose so many hurdles to the research by some of those countrie (like the US). Country Profiles

Ed
Yes I am aware of it. Ecuador seems to get screwed a lot with environmental problems. I take it everyone's heard about the lovely oil spills (yes, plural) they have been batteling for decades? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/wo...10chevron.html

Quote:
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It wasn't long after captivus was rediscovered that the frogs were offered at show X overseas, and for high dollars, I was offered them twice in a year accompanied by intentions of false CITES papers to get them in the US, much like putting a bow on a pig and exporting it as a horse with a free ride to the clink.

Information is so fluid with technology it doesn't take any digging to find out site data anymore. This is why we have El Dorado pumilio instead of sibubi morph or other location. Once the location is public the cash cow gets slaughtered, and like previously mentioned the dollar drives many intentions.

Even if they keep the locations classified it will just be the really wealthy that can bribe for it. Hard dilemma and the best we can do as a hobby is shun the smuggled stuff, hard to suppress the lust for new frogs we can flaunt for attention.

Lots of worm cans to open in this aisle.
ERic
Very well said Eric. It amazes and baffles me how CITES permits can exist for a species that has never left its country of origin legally. You would think it would be very easy for them to notice something like that...

It's really unfortunate when smuggled origin frogs come in that undercut the great work that is done by companies like UE, INIBICO, WIKIRI, etc. We've seen it plenty over the last few years and the frogs it happens with are even ones where it's obvious it's happening. But of course bringing in some new frogs from Europe brings in quite a bit of money, and people either don't know it's a problem to purchase them, or don't care because they have to have the latest thing.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
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And species that have been illegally distributed into the hobby there is often a mentality of "well they are here now, so they should be legal" which does nothing but drive smuggling since once it is here it is "okay" to have....

Ed
I completely agree with this. There are frogs in the hobby that are now legal in the US that have come as European imports. Yet these were never legally taken from the wild to begin with. I feel that sends a mixed message about what this hobby is / should be about.

Would I love to have Vanzolini? Yes, but I will hold out for a UE line. This might not happen for quite sometime but I feel it's worth the wait.

Please no one take this the wrong way or feel that I'm being pious or judgemental. It's a choice that I have made for myself and am certainly not criticizing those who own legal animals.
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Old 03-22-2012, 06:38 PM
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I agree on all accounts except there are still plenty of countries that still aren't seeing the benefit. Or they are dismissing that benefit for dams (China, Brasil) and various other things. If only everyone was as quick to catch on as Costa Rica. But again, I agree that it is definitely moving in that direction. Part of the problem like I said before though, is it has to have those three P's. As long as western civilizations are willing to pay for sustainable agriculture and eco-tourism it'll continue. But I wonder what will happen if it slows? I imagine they would go back to short term gain. If you look at history in our country, we don't exactly learn from past environmental mistakes. Or when new members of congress are elected, they don't care till it hurts their wallet.
It really goes beyond simple environmental mistakes, but is quite a bit of politics. I would recommend reading (while we're recommending books) Breakfast of Biodiversity by John Vandemeer. It talks quite a bit about the political ecology that promotes rainforest destruction. He actually takes a very critical view of Costa Rica and largely says how its environmental claim to fame is a bit overrated. I agree with him on some points, but certainly not all. He makes some very good points about how rainforest destruction isn't simply one cause and one thing to fix, and often by trying to fix one thing, you can cause problems that actually promote more rainforest destruction.

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Old 03-22-2012, 06:52 PM
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I completely agree with this. There are frogs in the hobby that are now legal in the US that have come as European imports. Yet these were never legally taken from the wild to begin with. I feel that sends a mixed message about what this hobby is / should be about.

Would I love to have Vanzolini? Yes, but I will hold out for a UE line. This might not happen for quite sometime but I feel it's worth the wait.

Please no one take this the wrong way or feel that I'm being pious or judgemental. It's a choice that I have made for myself and am certainly not criticizing those who own legal animals.
Ya I'm going to be getting UE line as well. You know they are available right? They are much less common than the Euro line because by the time they had them available most people that wanted vanzos already had the Euro line. Which is exactly what I was talking about before, it basically pulls the chair out from under them Kinda sucks when there is a sustainable, site specific, completely legal line of frog, and a frog of questionable origins, and the latter is more common.

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It really goes beyond simple environmental mistakes, but is quite a bit of politics. I would recommend reading (while we're recommending books) Breakfast of Biodiversity by John Vandemeer. It talks quite a bit about the political ecology that promotes rainforest destruction. He actually takes a very critical view of Costa Rica and largely says how its environmental claim to fame is a bit overrated. I agree with him on some points, but certainly not all. He makes some very good points about how rainforest destruction isn't simply one cause and one thing to fix, and often by trying to fix one thing, you can cause problems that actually promote more rainforest destruction.

Oh, and you'll never eat bananas again
My book list is forever long But I'll add it in there. Have you heard of the pathogen that took out the original domestic banana? I believe it was in the 50's or 60's but it's been a while since I read about this. Anyway it was due to very low variation in this line basically, and the same thing is happening with the bananas we eat now, even the same pathogen. Cause we didn't learn So I may not have a choice anyway! I'll have to find the article later.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:26 PM
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Yes, there are a number of fungal pathogens that are attacking banana, which have resulted in a ton of pesticides being used. The problem with bananas is that they're all essentially clones of one another. Every single one. Bananas we typically eat do not produce seeds, so they are reproduced by vegetative divisions. So, you can imagine what happens when a disease comes into a population of clones...

But BoB doesn't actually deal with any of that. It deals with the politics behind banana companies cutting down forest and how it has developed into a big loop to perpetuate the process. Fortunately, BoB is a short book, so something that you could read in a few days.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:27 PM
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Agreed Adam. The other unfortunate thing is that
1. Ethnobotany and the testing of living organisms for pharmaceuticals is way underfunded because people are more focused on purely synthetic drug discovery
2. Ethnobotanical research of indigenous plants in the past has yielded almost NO PROFIT for the country of origin or indigenous peoples..Read the excellent book "The Shamans Apprentice" for more on ethnobotany and drug discovery in the rainforest
I'm afraid that you are overestimating the benefits of ethnobotany. I know a few botanists who thought it would be a good idea to take locals with them on an expedition. They had very hight expectations of it, but it turned out that the local specialists were, at best, only able to determine plants to the family level. Needless to say that to people who are naturally sceptic, it would appear that there simply IS no benefit or profit to be yielded.
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Old 03-22-2012, 07:37 PM
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This thread highlights the complexities that are involved in a situation that has on the surface a simple solution. Some interesting perspectives from Jeremy, Ed and Eric that everyone should really consider.

There were a few frogs left out of the Ranitomeya revision completely (not species, just populations), not even pictures published because of fears had of potential negative impact on wild populations. I really think it is a shame because in the end the result is a wonderful piece of scientific work that is (sadly) not as complete as could have been. The reality is, in this day and age, and as Brown et al. noted in the revision, scientists when describing commercially valuable species need to at least take into consideration the potential impact publication of precise locality info might have on the long term integrity of the population and or the species.

Though smuggling is not the biggest threat to most amphibians, it is the threat that we as a hobbyist community can most easily mitigate by choosing to buy CB and from frogs with known legal origins.
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Old 03-22-2012, 10:44 PM
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Just to clarify, apparently I read something wrong somewhere because Understory isn't offering vanzolinii yet. My mistake! Just gotta keep on waiting


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Yes, there are a number of fungal pathogens that are attacking banana, which have resulted in a ton of pesticides being used. The problem with bananas is that they're all essentially clones of one another. Every single one. Bananas we typically eat do not produce seeds, so they are reproduced by vegetative divisions. So, you can imagine what happens when a disease comes into a population of clones...

But BoB doesn't actually deal with any of that. It deals with the politics behind banana companies cutting down forest and how it has developed into a big loop to perpetuate the process. Fortunately, BoB is a short book, so something that you could read in a few days.
Ya I figured it wasn't about that, just replying to you saying I wouldn't want to eat one ever again. But it does sound interesting and I'll check it out. Coffee was already ruined for me, might as well add bananas

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I'm afraid that you are overestimating the benefits of ethnobotany. I know a few botanists who thought it would be a good idea to take locals with them on an expedition. They had very hight expectations of it, but it turned out that the local specialists were, at best, only able to determine plants to the family level. Needless to say that to people who are naturally sceptic, it would appear that there simply IS no benefit or profit to be yielded.
That's a pretty big assumption based on one event that didn't go well. Not only that, but many of the drugs we have used over the years have come from ethnobotany, and I don't see why that wouldn't continue into the future. The opportunity just needs to be there, as well as the money (which it is since we are talking about huge companies).
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:01 PM
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I'm afraid that you are overestimating the benefits of ethnobotany. I know a few botanists who thought it would be a good idea to take locals with them on an expedition. They had very hight expectations of it, but it turned out that the local specialists were, at best, only able to determine plants to the family level. Needless to say that to people who are naturally sceptic, it would appear that there simply IS no benefit or profit to be yielded.
CURARE has yielded amazing medications used in heart surgery never matched by synthetics
Psilocybin was used as a model for the beta blocker visken and is now in study as the worlds most effective treatment for cluster headaches...otherwise untreatable.

Two examples of amazing medicines taken from indigenous peoples and discovered through ethnobotany



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Old 03-23-2012, 08:14 AM
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Point taken.

Back on-topic: I was pretty surprised by the amount of cases mentioned here which involved smugglers using first-hand information obtained from biologists. One more reason to be very careful with whom you buy your animals from. I'd very much hate the idea of having contributed to the demise of a population simply because I like putting animals in glass cases.

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Old 03-23-2012, 06:43 PM
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They had very hight expectations of it, but it turned out that the local specialists were, at best, only able to determine plants to the family level.
Not to be rude, but I think this is a specious grounds for supporting your claim. What you might take as fundamental, natural categories (scientific classifications of species etc) are still cultural categories, it's just that we have a strong correspondence to scientific bases for our categories. The term from anthro is folk ontology.

Would you say that local specialists are ignorant / failing the expectations of the illumined men of science because they group a set of plants according to their ability to ease a particular ailment rather than genetic affinities which are not particularly helpful if you are looking to nature for solutions to medical issues or for design solutions?

If they think that an orchid they use for tooth aches and a philodendron they use for the same are of the same "family", they're as right for doing so as you are and specialists should change the way they look at they tackle the problem accordingly.
What would be helpful about finding random medical boons in nature by correcting the native specialists to replace the orchid with a colocasia etc?
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Old 03-23-2012, 06:44 PM
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guess I was writing that while you were responding. Sorry
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:43 PM
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And again, I stand corrected My way of seeing the world and its inhabitant species as a result of evolutionary processes is, of course, no better than that of a man succesfully trying to find anything that will help him get rid of a toothache. I'd probably succumb to a simple ilness while trying to gain knowledge basically only of interest to me while they, with a very different view on the world they live in, would have no physical trouble at all.
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:55 PM
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I am all for two things, 1. Keeping the location of these new species a secret, at least till it can be determined has a large enough population to sustain collecting for the pet trade. Personally I'm not sure we need new wild frogs in the hobby right now. 2. Harsh harsh harsh punishments for smugglers. I know some countries are stricter than others. It seems like any animal related offense in this country, whether it be smuggling or shooting a bald eagle just brings a simple slap on the wrist. Absolutely no deterrent at all.

Really the real issue is money. Smugglers come in and are looking for a certain animal and offer the natives more money than they've ever seen in their life to take them to the location where this animal is located. We've got to remember the natives are for the most part living day to day. You don't fish or hunt today, you don't eat today. So what we must do is educate the natives. Find them a way to make a living so they don't destroy populations of animals, so they don't cut down every tree in the forest for grazing or farming land. They are uneducated, they have no clue what conservation is, why would they? They only take what they need for today. They don't over harvest anything. But the lure of money is too powerful. I remember a Dr. Nibbish Chao, who was a prof at a university in Santarem, Brazil, he came to speak at our cichlid club once. He talked about teaching the native Brazilians to harvest cardinal tetras for the pet trade. What he emphasized was not catching in the same area year after year and wiping out those populations. He taught them the practice of sustainable harvest. Can it be done with frogs??
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Old 03-25-2012, 01:23 AM
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That's a great idea. Plus, it's a winning situation for the natives since they will be able to harvest and be paid over many years, rather than paid till the smugglers have their fill...

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Old 03-25-2012, 01:54 AM
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Exactly Jake, don't you think the native tribes would be on board if they could be taught sustainable harvest and they could make money for 20 years instead of just once?
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Old 03-25-2012, 02:32 AM
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I am all for two things, 1. Keeping the location of these new species a secret, at least till it can be determined has a large enough population to sustain collecting for the pet trade. Personally I'm not sure we need new wild frogs in the hobby right now. 2. Harsh harsh harsh punishments for smugglers. I know some countries are stricter than others. It seems like any animal related offense in this country, whether it be smuggling or shooting a bald eagle just brings a simple slap on the wrist. Absolutely no deterrent at all.
The biggest problem is that there are very harsh punishments for smugglers (jail time and thousands in fines, generally), but smugglers are very good at avoiding detection. I mean, look at the Lizard King guy (I can't remember his name) that was arrested this last year. It's been known that he's had a hand in a lot of smuggling, but it has been difficult, for a variety of reasons to actually catch him.

Quote:
Really the real issue is money. Smugglers come in and are looking for a certain animal and offer the natives more money than they've ever seen in their life to take them to the location where this animal is located. We've got to remember the natives are for the most part living day to day. You don't fish or hunt today, you don't eat today. So what we must do is educate the natives. Find them a way to make a living so they don't destroy populations of animals, so they don't cut down every tree in the forest for grazing or farming land. They are uneducated, they have no clue what conservation is, why would they? They only take what they need for today. They don't over harvest anything. But the lure of money is too powerful. I remember a Dr. Nibbish Chao, who was a prof at a university in Santarem, Brazil, he came to speak at our cichlid club once. He talked about teaching the native Brazilians to harvest cardinal tetras for the pet trade. What he emphasized was not catching in the same area year after year and wiping out those populations. He taught them the practice of sustainable harvest. Can it be done with frogs??
I agree that education of locals is important, but that is much easier said than done. What will ultimately happen is that smugglers will find people who do not know about conservation should a local village be taught it. I think that there should be equally harsh fines/jail time for anyone with illegal animals, who are the people driving the demand for these animals and giving reason to the smugglers to go find them.
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Old 03-25-2012, 02:52 AM
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The biggest problem is that there are very harsh punishments for smugglers (jail time and thousands in fines, generally), but smugglers are very good at avoiding detection. I mean, look at the Lizard King guy (I can't remember his name) that was arrested this last year. It's been known that he's had a hand in a lot of smuggling, but it has been difficult, for a variety of reasons to actually catch him.



I agree that education of locals is important, but that is much easier said than done. What will ultimately happen is that smugglers will find people who do not know about conservation should a local village be taught it. I think that there should be equally harsh fines/jail time for anyone with illegal animals, who are the people driving the demand for these animals and giving reason to the smugglers to go find them.
You're right JP. If you can take away the market and therefore the money for smuggled frogs there is no financial incentive to smuggle them and that would effectively end the whole operation. However that means some sort of government interference with who is keeping what species. If it means no more smuggling then I would gladly open the door when USFW or whoever comes knocking. Check it out for yourself, Mr. USFW agent man, I've got nothing to hide.
I remember reading about the Lizard King guy last year, and hearing various stories about people stopped coming into this country with 100 snakes hidden on them. I always wonder how they do it.
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