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Old 12-26-2011, 06:59 PM
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Default The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

An article from March 2011, but still good to be aware of: The dark side of new species discovery

"Scientists and the public usually rejoice when a new species is discovered. But biologist Bryan Stuart has learned the hard way that the discovery of new species, especially when that species is commercially valuable, has a dark side-one that could potentially wipe out the new species before protections can be put in place."
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Old 12-26-2011, 07:45 PM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

Thanks for this Ron.

Just more proof that, as of now, the dart frog hobby is a net loss for wild species. Since many of the species we are interested in collecting can come from captive bred/sustainable sources, perhaps it is time for us to advocate closing our borders to imported, wild-collected species.

Take care, Richard.
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Old 12-27-2011, 01:48 AM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

Amazinly sad... Been learning a lot about how big the illegal frog trade is especially plants
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Old 12-27-2011, 02:02 AM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

There are some valid points in the article but I found it somewhat hypocritical that his feature species( The Laos Newt) was only discovered because a preserved specimen used for medical purposes came into his possesion. I don't see him anywhere in the article speaking out about the harvesting of these animals for medicinal purposes and in Asia at least collection for medicinal purposes far outstrips collection for the pet trade.


Then, in 1999, one of my Lao colleagues found the first examples of a salamander up in the northern part of the country. The actual discovery was rather unusual. He had gone home to a rural part of northern Laos for a wedding, and when he returned to the capital city, he brought back with him a few examples of a salamander that had been put into the local alcohol for medicinal purposes. The idea was you put this animal that has very toxic skin secretions into the alcohol, and then you drink the alcohol at a party, such as this wedding, and there's some perceived health benefits from doing so. In any case, it is really this sort of unusual circumstance where his attendance at this wedding resulted in bringing these salamanders to my attention.

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Old 01-01-2012, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
There are some valid points in the article but I found it somewhat hypocritical that his feature species( The Laos Newt) was only discovered because a preserved specimen used for medical purposes came into his possesion. I don't see him anywhere in the article speaking out about the harvesting of these animals for medicinal purposes and in Asia at least collection for medicinal purposes far outstrips collection for the pet trade.


Then, in 1999, one of my Lao colleagues found the first examples of a salamander up in the northern part of the country. The actual discovery was rather unusual. He had gone home to a rural part of northern Laos for a wedding, and when he returned to the capital city, he brought back with him a few examples of a salamander that had been put into the local alcohol for medicinal purposes. The idea was you put this animal that has very toxic skin secretions into the alcohol, and then you drink the alcohol at a party, such as this wedding, and there's some perceived health benefits from doing so. In any case, it is really this sort of unusual circumstance where his attendance at this wedding resulted in bringing these salamanders to my attention.

Read more: The dark side of new species discovery
I think you missed the point that despite local collection for who knows how long the salamanders could still be found in a number of locations in healthy numbers and it wasn't until it was collected for the pet trade that its population was desimated in a very short period. Its likely that the salamenders population was unaffected by the locals harvesting cause it was done on a small sustainable scale for decades, if not centuries. The problem for this animal was purely the pet trade.
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:21 PM
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I think you missed the point that despite local collection for who knows how long the salamanders could still be found in a number of locations in healthy numbers and it wasn't until it was collected for the pet trade that its population was desimated in a very short period. Its likely that the salamenders population was unaffected by the locals harvesting cause it was done on a small sustainable scale for decades, if not centuries. The problem for this animal was purely the pet trade.
That is only if you believe that the current small range of the species had nothing to do with collection for medicinal purposes. The counter argument could be made that the reason the population was so limited to begin with was due to collection pressure by the natives and that the commercial collectors just added to this pressure.

Historicly as can be seen by the decimation of the turtle population in SE Asia many more species have been wiped out for medicine/food trade than have ever been impacted by commercial collectors its hypocritical and foolish to claim otherwise.
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
There are some valid points in the article but I found it somewhat hypocritical that his feature species( The Laos Newt) was only discovered because a preserved specimen used for medical purposes came into his possesion.
Where did you get that information? It isn't mentioned in the description of the animals (see http://www.bryanlstuart.com/site/Pub...uss%202002.pdf ). Typically if a species is first located in the food market, the hint is documented in the literature.

Paramesotrition isn't typically chosen as a medicinal newt due to the high toxicity of the species. Typically it is cynops that are the preferred species in asian medicine. That is based on a pesonal conversation with some of the researchers who have done surveys in the food markets.

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Old 01-01-2012, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post

Historicly as can be seen by the decimation of the turtle population in SE Asia many more species have been wiped out for medicine/food trade than have ever been impacted by commercial collectors its hypocritical and foolish to claim otherwise.

When did collecting for the pet trade stop being a commercial enterprise?

If you review the data, the species listed were not taken for food or medicine, they were small localized populations that were decimated for the pet trade by collectors specifically targeting that species from the published literature... Local collection for subsistence use, tend to not impact the species since the impact isn't targeted and precise on small populations... There has been a long history of documentatiion of this behavior starting with the Kauffield's books (Snakes and Snake Hunting, and the Keeper and the Kept) where people used those to target the populations he discussed in great detail resulting in a decline of the snakes in those populations and destruction of the habitat by people ripping things up to look for the animals.

The message I got from your last post is that the hobby should be allowed to get them as pets because they are being decimated for other uses (even when demand from the hobby caused the extinction)..... So it is okay for the hobby to be the straw that broke the camels' back because people want them in cages... Removing the animals from the wild to be eaten or used in folk medicine is the same as removing the animal for the pet trade. The wild population is pushed towards extinction...

Ed
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:11 PM
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Where did you get that information? It isn't mentioned in the description of the animals (see http://www.bryanlstuart.com/site/Pub...uss%202002.pdf ). Typically if a species is first located in the food market, the hint is documented in the literature.
Paramesotrition isn't typically chosen as a medicinal newt due to the high toxicity of the species. Typically it is cynops that are the preferred species in asian medicine. That is based on a pesonal conversation with some of the researchers who have done surveys in the food markets.

Ed
Oh I don't know Ed... It only says so in the link for the original post. The only reason he became aware of the species is that his collegue brought back a couple of specimens that were preserved in alcohol for medicinal purposes.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:15 PM
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When did collecting for the pet trade stop being a commercial enterprise?

If you review the data, the species listed were not taken for food or medicine, they were small localized populations that were decimated for the pet trade by collectors specifically targeting that species from the published literature... Local collection for subsistence use, tend to not impact the species since the impact isn't targeted and precise on small populations... There has been a long history of documentatiion of this behavior starting with the Kauffield's books (Snakes and Snake Hunting, and the Keeper and the Kept) where people used those to target the populations he discussed in great detail resulting in a decline of the snakes in those populations and destruction of the habitat by people ripping things up to look for the animals.

The message I got from your last post is that the hobby should be allowed to get them as pets because they are being decimated for other uses (even when demand from the hobby caused the extinction)..... So it is okay for the hobby to be the straw that broke the camels' back because people want them in cages... Removing the animals from the wild to be eaten or used in folk medicine is the same as removing the animal for the pet trade. The wild population is pushed towards extinction...

Ed
Not all. But in SE Asia, collection for the pet trade is the least of most species worries and stating otherwise is hypocritical at best and being an apologist at worst. Don't know about you but I would rather see live specimens brought out and perhaps bred in public and private collections as opposed to the local soaking them in alcohol and drinking the alcohol at weddings and other parties.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
Not all. But in SE Asia, collection for the pet trade is the least of most species worries and stating otherwise is hypocritical at best and being an apologist at worst. Don't know about you but I would rather see live specimens brought out and perhaps bred in public and private collections as opposed to the local soaking them in alcohol and drinking the alcohol at weddings and other parties.
You are supposing then that the people who have them as pets will treat them as endangered species and use proper techniques to breed them in the most natural way to support the growth of the species so that we do not see an extinction.

The number one goal of all true biologists and nature lovers should be to keep a species in its natural environment. There needs to be regulations protecting these species(as pointed out in the article) from the pet trade and/or the local medicinal use of them if, in fact, not doing so would lead to the extinction of that species.
Now there also needs to be a line drawn between pet trade and professional breeding programs that are created to support a species natural growth and reincorporation into the wild. If you take a species out of the wild in order to breed them and it is done for commercial purposes then you will most likely see what has happened to many species in the pet trade as well as what has come up about line breeding PDF's recently. Breeding for reincorporation purposes and breeding for commercial use are not the same thing.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
Not all. But in SE Asia, collection for the pet trade is the least of most species worries and stating otherwise is hypocritical at best and being an apologist at worst. Don't know about you but I would rather see live specimens brought out and perhaps bred in public and private collections as opposed to the local soaking them in alcohol and drinking the alcohol at weddings and other parties.
In other words, regardless of the impact on the population, the rarer an animal becomes, the more you think it is appropriate that it end up in a hobbyists collection.... This is exactly what drives collection of those rarer animals and has actually been documented to cause extinction events...

The problem is that in these cases captive breeding does not equate to conservation.... If you wanted the animals to remain around then you would start, help or engage in sustainable captive breeding.... Did you read the following thread? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sci...tml#post576511

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Old 01-02-2012, 12:22 AM
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The number one goal of all true biologists and nature lovers should be to keep a species in its natural environment. There needs to be regulations protecting these species(as pointed out in the article) from the pet trade and/or the local medicinal use of them if, in fact, not doing so would lead to the extinction of that species.
See this thread starting with this post http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sci...tml#post576511


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Now there also needs to be a line drawn between pet trade and professional breeding programs that are created to support a species natural growth and reincorporation into the wild. If you take a species out of the wild in order to breed them and it is done for commercial purposes then you will most likely see what has happened to many species in the pet trade as well as what has come up about line breeding PDF's recently. Breeding for reincorporation purposes and breeding for commercial use are not the same thing.
They don't have to be mutually exclusive. See for example Amphibian Steward Network | Tree Walkers International

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Old 01-02-2012, 12:29 AM
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In other words, regardless of the impact on the population, the rarer an animal becomes, the more you think it is appropriate that it end up in a hobbyists collection.... This is exactly what drives collection of those rarer animals and has actually been documented to cause extinction events...

The problem is that in these cases captive breeding does not equate to conservation.... If you wanted the animals to remain around then you would start, help or engage in sustainable captive breeding.... Did you read the following thread? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sci...tml#post576511

Ed
No. But I call bullshit when I see it. The only way the species was discovered was because it was found preserved in alcohol for some native wedding drink concoction. Who knows how much of the species native range was wiped out by native collectors... However all the blame is only placed on the pet trade. If this had occured in Iran( Kaiser Newts) I would have agreed with the assesment 100 %, but in SE Asia if it flies, crawls or swims it is either eaten or used for medicinal purposes, so I have no reason to believe that its only the collectors that are driving this species to extinction as the author strongly alleges. Hence my original post responce.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:45 AM
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You are supposing then that the people who have them as pets will treat them as endangered species and use proper techniques to breed them in the most natural way to support the growth of the species so that we do not see an extinction.
The number one goal of all true biologists and nature lovers should be to keep a species in its natural environment. There needs to be regulations protecting these species(as pointed out in the article) from the pet trade and/or the local medicinal use of them if, in fact, not doing so would lead to the extinction of that species.
Now there also needs to be a line drawn between pet trade and professional breeding programs that are created to support a species natural growth and reincorporation into the wild. If you take a species out of the wild in order to breed them and it is done for commercial purposes then you will most likely see what has happened to many species in the pet trade as well as what has come up about line breeding PDF's recently. Breeding for reincorporation purposes and breeding for commercial use are not the same thing.
Actually I'm just basing this on the simple logic that at least a live newt has a chance of survival, while a newt pickled in alcohol(often while still alive) does not. I think if the newts were sentient and had a say in the matter we know what option they would vote for
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:14 AM
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Actually I'm just basing this on the simple logic that at least a live newt has a chance of survival, while a newt pickled in alcohol(often while still alive) does not. I think if the newts were sentient and had a say in the matter we know what option they would vote for
I think you are missing the point Ed has made here. We understand that the local use of these newts has hurt the newt populations BUT the species is still around even after these practices of newts being put into alcohol by locals for who knows how long. So now with the added pressure of the Pet trade want for these Newts they could possibly become extinct in the wild.
So even though it wasnt the pet trade who cause the extinction by themselves but it could definitely be the last push. Why then would that be a justification for having them as pets? Why not work to put regulations on the export of the newts as proposed in the article? This doesnt mean that all export is to be halted but that it should be regulated.

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Old 01-02-2012, 01:27 AM
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I think you are missing the point Ed has made here. We understand that the local use of these newts has hurt the newt populations BUT the species is still around even after these practices of newts being put into alcohol by locals for who knows how long. So now with the added pressure of the Pet trade want for these Newts they could possibly become extinct in the wild.
So even though it wasnt the pet trade who cause the extinction by themselves but it could definitely be the last push. Why then would that be a justification for having them as pets? Why not work to put regulations on the export of the newts as proposed in the article? This doesnt mean that all export is to be halted but that it should be regulated.
And I think Ed missed the point of my original post. It never said anything about allowing collection of the newts for the pet trade. It merely pointed out the hypocrisy of the author who discovered the species in what for all practical purposes amounted to a "fancy native cocktail", exclusively blaming the pet trade for the species slide towards extinction while at no time mentioning the much more damaging affects of the "Medicinal" trade which has driven many more species towards extinction in that part of the world than the pet trade ever will.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:42 AM
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And I think Ed missed the point of my original post. It never said anything about allowing collection of the newts for the pet trade. It merely pointed out the hypocrisy of the author who discovered the species in what for all practical purposes amounted to a "fancy native cocktail", exclusively blaming the pet trade for the species slide towards extinction while at no time mentioning the much more damaging affects of the "Medicinal" trade which has driven many more species towards extinction in that part of the world than the pet trade ever will.
This is a good point, but there are some things that can be regulated easier than others and in this case it would be much easier to regulate export for the pet trade than it would be to get support for regulations on traditional use by the local people. So although i cant speak for the author, i do think that he is simply trying to do what he feels that he can do at the moment by controlling the export for the pet trade. Sometimes you have to take care of the small things before you try and take on the big problems.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:43 AM
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"She learned that local people have historically for a very, very long time collected the animals in very small numbers for in some cases food, in other cases medicinal purposes, such as the wedding alcohol example I gave earlier, but that there was no real significant commercial trade in the species, until just a few years ago when foreign commercial collectors for the pet trade visited Laos and set up these trade networks to collect it, illegally export it, and sell it in Japan and the West for profit for the pet trade. And since those activities started, there is now a very large network for the species, and it is very heavily harvested."

The dark side of new species discovery
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:58 AM
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"She learned that local people have historically for a very, very long time collected the animals in very small numbers for in some cases food, in other cases medicinal purposes, such as the wedding alcohol example I gave earlier, but that there was no real significant commercial trade in the species, until just a few years ago when foreign commercial collectors for the pet trade visited Laos and set up these trade networks to collect it, illegally export it, and sell it in Japan and the West for profit for the pet trade. And since those activities started, there is now a very large network for the species, and it is very heavily harvested."

The dark side of new species discovery
This may well be true Donn. However now that this species is discovered and known about you don't see a scenario where the same people in China and other parts of the Far East who pay crazy money for bear paws tiger livers and rhino horn, not wanting to try a genuine "Laos Newt Wedding Cocktail"?

Hippopotamus on menu at Beijing zoo | Environment | guardian.co.uk

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/wo...smuggling.html
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:04 AM
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And I think Ed missed the point of my original post. It never said anything about allowing collection of the newts for the pet trade. It merely pointed out the hypocrisy of the author who discovered the species in what for all practical purposes amounted to a "fancy native cocktail", exclusively blaming the pet trade for the species slide towards extinction while at no time mentioning the much more damaging affects of the "Medicinal" trade which has driven many more species towards extinction in that part of the world than the pet trade ever will.
I didn't miss your interpretation of what you thought was hypocrisy.. The actual hypocrisy is that you think it is better to have them extinct in the wild regardless of the cause as long as they can be housed in a hobbyists cage.... You have emphasized that point several times now in this thread yet do not make the connection about the disjunction in that position..

The fact that once the population is extinct in the wild, means that there are no more of that animal unless there is a managed breeding program to ensure the genetics and to ensure no exposure to novel pathogens. As we have seen in multiple taxa ranging from mammals to insects, unmanaged genetics can rapidly result in adaptation to captivity that prevents the captive population from being able to be released, exposure to foriegn pathogens due to non-sympatric species during the chain towards the hobbyist and further exposure in hobbyists mixed species collections further put the nail in the coffin of the species in captivity. We have seen this mentality cause multiple extinctions (both local and of a species) for quite a long time. One can look at the end of the great auk which was pushed into extinction at the end by collectors... and see the same trend with the desire to stick species into a cage today...

Ed
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:07 AM
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I didn't miss your interpretation of what you thought was hypocrisy.. The actual hypocrisy is that you think it is better to have them extinct in the wild regardless of the cause as long as they can be housed in a hobbyists cage.... You have emphasized that point several times now in this thread yet do not make the connection about the disjunction in that position..
The fact that once the population is extinct in the wild, means that there are no more of that animal unless there is a managed breeding program to ensure the genetics and to ensure no exposure to novel pathogens. As we have seen in multiple taxa ranging from mammals to insects, unmanaged genetics can rapidly result in adaptation to captivity that prevents the captive population from being able to be released, exposure to foriegn pathogens due to non-sympatric species during the chain towards the hobbyist and further exposure in hobbyists mixed species collections further put the nail in the coffin of the species in captivity. We have seen this mentality cause multiple extinctions (both local and of a species) for quite a long time. One can look at the end of the great auk which was pushed into extinction at the end by collectors... and see the same trend with the desire to stick species into a cage today...

Ed
Sorry but I call Bull Shit on that. Can you point out once where I said I would be okay with a species becoming extinct in the wild for the benefit of the pet trade?
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:08 AM
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This may well be true Donn. However now that this species is discovered and known about you don't see a scenario where the same people in China and other parts of the Far East who pay crazy money for bear paws tiger livers and rhino horn, not wanting to try a genuine "Laos Newt Wedding Cocktail"?

Hippopotamus on menu at Beijing zoo | Environment | guardian.co.uk

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/15/wo...smuggling.html
So instead of admitting you were wrong you invent some scenario to justify your earlier baseless criticism?

Also, regardless if it was under pressure from other forces, it would not change the fact that it was also put under pressure from the pet trade.

One set of pressure doesn't justify, or excuse, the other.
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:11 AM
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Laotriton article - Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Forum

Laotriton laoensis - Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Forum

Laotriton laoensis F2 - after 4 years! - Page 2 - Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Forum

Just some reading material for those not familiar with the animal etc. A lot more can be found on caudata.org JVK
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Brotherly Monkey View Post
So instead of admitting you were wrong you invent some scenario to justify your earlier baseless criticism?

Also, regardless if it was under pressure from other forces, it would not change the fact that it was also put under pressure from the pet trade.

One set of pressure doesn't justify, or excuse, the other.
Wrong how? That I pointed out that in SE Asia it's not the pet trade that is the primary culprit when it comes to species extinction? Or that I mentioned that now that the species has come to public attention how long before people with more money than sense pay to sample the cocktail in question?
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
Sorry but I call Bull Shit on that. Can you point out once where I said I would be okay with a species becoming extinct in the wild for the benefit of the pet trade?
Call BS all you want, I stated what I took from your position , you took that position and put it out here as shown here,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
Not all. But in SE Asia, collection for the pet trade is the least of most species worries and stating otherwise is hypocritical at best and being an apologist at worst. Don't know about you but I would rather see live specimens brought out and perhaps bred in public and private collections as opposed to the local soaking them in alcohol and drinking the alcohol at weddings and other parties.
You mean where you stated above that it is better to see them alive in someone's tank than being used as a folkmedicine? You made it quite clear that you thought removal from the wild regardless of impact on the wild population was just fine, and equated the demand for folkmedicine with the pet trade. Nothing in your responses to me have indicated any interest in them remaining in the wild. In the following quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
No. But I call bullshit when I see it. The only way the species was discovered was because it was found preserved in alcohol for some native wedding drink concoction. Who knows how much of the species native range was wiped out by native collectors... However all the blame is only placed on the pet trade. If this had occured in Iran( Kaiser Newts) I would have agreed with the assesment 100 %, but in SE Asia if it flies, crawls or swims it is either eaten or used for medicinal purposes, so I have no reason to believe that its only the collectors that are driving this species to extinction as the author strongly alleges. Hence my original post responce.
You start off by saying no, and then move towards the position that collection for the pet trade is acceptable.
You claim that the impact of the pet trade is negligble for this species while claiming the greatest risk for this species is from the folkmedicine usages without any supporting data. On what basis do you have proof that it had a wider range that has been wiped out by locals' collecting the newts?
And you again, refuse to accept any of the data that demonstrates extinctions by collectors even though there is a history documenting it for more than 200 years while wildly speculating on the impact of the locals......

I think you have provided abundent proof that
1) you don't have a problem with collecting rare species for the pet trade even if it means local extinctions
2) you are ignoring the large amount of data on the risk posed to small populations by collectors for the pet trade...

Ed
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:31 AM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

Don't hurt yourself jumping to conclusions Ed. Nowhere in the thread do I say the newts should be collected for the pet trade. I simply took offense at the fact that the author focused on the "evils" of the pet trade while seemingly giving the medicinal market a clear pass. I did say that I would rather see the newts collected for the pet trade than killed to make "Wedding Cocktails" and don't see that as an unreasonable statement. And I am still waiting for you to point out the example I requested below:

Can you point out once where I said I would be okay with a species becoming extinct in the wild for the benefit of the pet trade.

Just because you choose to interpet things in a certain way doesn't mean that they are
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:11 AM
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I just want to shed light on one aspect of this conversation. In spite of all of the negative effects that the pet trade and exotic animal hobbyists have caused, either directly or indirectly, their is a positive action that results from all of this. So, the newly discovered, or highly prized specimen in question will end up in some hobbyists hand's at some point. If this specimen is not legally being exported then it drives up both the price and the desire for it. Being that these specimens are generally endemic to poor countries, the indigenous people that live on very little will be sanctioned by smugglers to help find and collect the animals. They will make their way to the U.S. or Europe and be sold. They may not completely decimate a population, but they still take and do not replenish. On the other hand, if you allow the countries government to regulate the exportation of the animals, within reason, or allow groups to sustainably breed/export these animals then the government is happy, a captive population is established in the hobby, and the desire/value of the animals goes down with time. Thus, there is little reason for smugglers to smuggle. Because who would rather have a wild caught frog over a captive bred one? Their rates of survival are better, their probability of having parasites is lower, and you did the right thing by buying captive.

Not saying it's all good but I think that since the demand is inevitable then it's better to regulate it than the alternative. I hope not to get jumped on as this is just my opinion, and I'm open minded.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
Don't hurt yourself jumping to conclusions Ed. Nowhere in the thread do I say the newts should be collected for the pet trade. I simply took offense at the fact that the author focused on the "evils" of the pet trade while seemingly giving the medicinal market a clear pass. I did say that I would rather see the newts collected for the pet trade than killed to make "Wedding Cocktails" and don't see that as an unreasonable statement. And I am still waiting for you to point out the example I requested below:

Can you point out once where I said I would be okay with a species becoming extinct in the wild for the benefit of the pet trade.

Just because you choose to interpet things in a certain way doesn't mean that they are
No hurdles.. So your going with the Bill Clinton it isn't perjury defense??... I easily and clearly demonstrated what you said and meant regardless if you explicity said it or not.. Right Bill?

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Old 01-02-2012, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mattolsen View Post
I just want to shed light on one aspect of this conversation. In spite of all of the negative effects that the pet trade and exotic animal hobbyists have caused, either directly or indirectly, their is a positive action that results from all of this. So, the newly discovered, or highly prized specimen in question will end up in some hobbyists hand's at some point. If this specimen is not legally being exported then it drives up both the price and the desire for it. Being that these specimens are generally endemic to poor countries, the indigenous people that live on very little will be sanctioned by smugglers to help find and collect the animals. They will make their way to the U.S. or Europe and be sold. They may not completely decimate a population, but they still take and do not replenish. On the other hand, if you allow the countries government to regulate the exportation of the animals, within reason, or allow groups to sustainably breed/export these animals then the government is happy, a captive population is established in the hobby, and the desire/value of the animals goes down with time. Thus, there is little reason for smugglers to smuggle. Because who would rather have a wild caught frog over a captive bred one? Their rates of survival are better, their probability of having parasites is lower, and you did the right thing by buying captive.

Not saying it's all good but I think that since the demand is inevitable then it's better to regulate it than the alternative. I hope not to get jumped on as this is just my opinion, and I'm open minded.
Getting the locals involved and letting them earn a living from the animals generally is one of the ways to get a sustainable harvesting of the animals and protection of the ecosystem. I broke a lot of this down in this thread (I had to make three posts to cover all of the important points) http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sci...tml#post576511

Ed
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Where did you get that information? It isn't mentioned in the description of the animals (see http://www.bryanlstuart.com/site/Pub...uss%202002.pdf ). Typically if a species is first located in the food market, the hint is documented in the literature.

Paramesotrition isn't typically chosen as a medicinal newt due to the high toxicity of the species. Typically it is cynops that are the preferred species in asian medicine. That is based on a pesonal conversation with some of the researchers who have done surveys in the food markets.
Ed

You are clearly either delusional or high on meds to be jumping to conclusions like you are. This is kind of like your post above where you practicly accuse me of fabricating the method of the species discovery, when it was clearly described in the original poster's link. Care to tell me again how Paramesotrition aren't used for medicinal purposes like you did in your first post? I let it slide the first time, I won't this time. Come of your throne and join the rest of us mortals, and admit you jumped to conclusions based on some preconcieved notions or past grudges you may still be carrying.
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:11 AM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
Come of your throne and join the rest of us mortals, and admit you jumped to conclusions based on some preconcieved notions or past grudges you may still be carrying.
You seem to be the one with preconceived notions here. Maybe you should take a look at your signature.
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Old 01-02-2012, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

Does anyone even know that all these newts were collected for pets or if the Japanese wanted then for for folk medicine? It seems that there is another unknown here. I know Japanese buy lots of matsutake's collected here for asian wedding rituals.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by frogfarm View Post
Does anyone even know that all these newts were collected for pets or if the Japanese wanted then for for folk medicine? It seems that there is another unknown here. I know Japanese buy lots of matsutake's collected here for asian wedding rituals.
Hi Aaron,

They were being collected for the pet trade. See for example http://downloads.ircf.org/wwdigitalm...eb.pdf#page=50

Ed
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mantisdragon91 View Post
You are clearly either delusional or high on meds to be jumping to conclusions like you are. This is kind of like your post above where you practicly accuse me of fabricating the method of the species discovery, when it was clearly described in the original poster's link. Care to tell me again how Paramesotrition aren't used for medicinal purposes like you did in your first post? I let it slide the first time, I won't this time. Come of your throne and join the rest of us mortals, and admit you jumped to conclusions based on some preconcieved notions or past grudges you may still be carrying.
Roman,

You are again attacking when you have been caught out in making wild theories to justify your position. I referenced my source and noted that typically when species are discovered in the food trade or pet trade, that link is documented in the literature. We can see this with the description of several of the Pachytriton species discovered by Thiesmeir ( See for example Thiesmeier, B. and C. Hornberg . 1997. Paarung, Fortpflanzung and Larvalentwicklung von Pachytriton sp. (Pachytriton A) nebst Bemerkungen zur Taxonomie der Gattung. Salamandra 33:97110)... This has been seen in fish particularly marine species, and turtles to provide two other taxa as examples. The scientist who described Laotriton (Pachytriton) laoensis didn't include that in the paper where he cited it.. So I'm not sure how you can equate that to your arguments since I cited a reference a peer reviewed reference for my point (and I have again backed it up here...).

I did not engage in the Bill Clinton perjury defence..

Ed
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:00 PM
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Roman,

You are again attacking when you have been caught out in making wild theories to justify your position. I referenced my source and noted that typically when species are discovered in the food trade or pet trade, that link is documented in the literature. We can see this with the description of several of the Pachytriton species discovered by Thiesmeir ( See for example Thiesmeier, B. and C. Hornberg . 1997. Paarung, Fortpflanzung and Larvalentwicklung von Pachytriton sp. (Pachytriton A) nebst Bemerkungen zur Taxonomie der Gattung. Salamandra 33:97110)... This has been seen in fish particularly marine species, and turtles to provide two other taxa as examples. The scientist who described Laotriton (Pachytriton) laoensis didn't include that in the paper where he cited it.. So I'm not sure how you can equate that to your arguments since I cited a reference a peer reviewed reference for my point (and I have again backed it up here...).

I did not engage in the Bill Clinton perjury defence..

Ed
I'm simply asking you to reread my posts and point out where I said it is okay for the newts to be collected for commercial purposes? I did say that I would rather see the newts collected for the pet trade than killed for medicinal purposes, but the ideal situation would be for neither to happen.

And if I am engaging in the Bill Clinton perjury defence, then you are surely engaging in the Newt Gingritch perjury prosecution... and we all know what a hypocritical, loud mouthed windbag he turned out to be
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:18 PM
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Does anyone even know that all these newts were collected for pets or if the Japanese wanted then for for folk medicine? It seems that there is another unknown here. I know Japanese buy lots of matsutake's collected here for asian wedding rituals.
They are also collected by "sack fulls" by the natives for food:

In Phonesavanh, Lao PDR, a trip was planned to see wild Lao Newts in
an effort to gather information on trade from locals. According to a
source, around Phonesavanh newts were sometimes kept as pets.
Occasionally, some were also sent to Vientiane for export to Japan and
Europe. Local guides from a small village ~2 hours drive from
Phonesavanh brought the author to a nearby stream where the newts
were found (Figure 6, 7). Apparently, the newts had been protected for
about one year making it illegal to collect them. One of the guides also
said he was paid USD100 by an NGO to conserve them although
sometimes Europeans did come to buy them paying USD120 a pair.
This, however, did not happen very often. According to the guides
locals also eat these newts and, prior to being protected, they could
collect “sack full’s” from a nearby stream where they are abundant.
The newts are prepared by gutting and sun-drying them before being
crushed and added to food (Figure 7).
Although the guides stated that the newts were protected, the driver later told the researcher that it would be possible to buy some as pets and that the normal asking price of USD60 per animal could be negotiated.

http://www.zoodirektoren.de/pics/med...nese_Newts.pdf
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

Trotting out the same old, tired arguments that we have had here for years doesn't do one damn thing to actually protect wild amphibians from extinction. The time has come to occupy the truth about the negative impacts that trade in wild-stolen amphibians is having on wild populations and DO something about it.

I'm making this my one and only New year's resolution/revolution.

Take care, Richard.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

Roman, did you really read that link through to the end?

First off, your quotation documents the past tense, prior to the animals being protected.. and if you had read through the link further you would have run into the following quotation

Quote:

The pet trade is listed as the primary threat to the Lao Newt and as a major threat to both the Tam Dao Newt and Himalayan Knobby Newt (Van Dijk, 2004a; Van Dijk, 2004b; Van Dijk and Stuart, 2004). The Lao Newt was first described in 2002 and subsequently became popular in the international pet trade appearing for sale in Germany and

Japan in 2006 (Stuart and Papenfuss, 2002; Chang, 2006; Stuart
et al., 2006). In Japan, a journalist investigating trade there found that a single dealer had imported around 100 Lao Newts and began selling them around the country (Masumitsu, 2006). Surveys of Japanese websites at the time found the newts on sale for around USD170 each (Chang, 2006; B. Stuart, pers. comm.). Today, these newts are apparently selling for USD400 per animal most likely being transported to Japan via China (Nishikawa, pers.comm.).

Furthermore, your citation doesn't indicate or prove that they were being collected to be to shipped overseas to Japan as a traditional medicine or food.....

Ed


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Old 01-02-2012, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: The Dark Side of New Species Discovery

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Originally Posted by frogfarm View Post
Does anyone even know that all these newts were collected for pets or if the Japanese wanted then for for folk medicine? It seems that there is another unknown here. I know Japanese buy lots of matsutake's collected here for asian wedding rituals.
The story I got on the U.S. imports were they were collected for the food trade but sidetracked to the hobby trade. I have no way of knowing if this is true or not. I do know the wild caught Laotriton that came in had USFW paperwork with them and most went to zoos, museums, and serious hobbyists.

They are being bred in the U.S. now. They are large animals and take several years to reach sexual maturity. I'm not sure captive breeding will remove the incentive to import wild caught.

The rare salamander hobby is just as fuzzy as the rare frog hobby. The argument could be made that just by keeping any endangered animal you could be contributing to the species extirpation from the wild. Even promoting captive bred animals can result in collection pressure on wild populations.
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