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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2009, 12:40 PM
 
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Default SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Hi,
Please check out savethefrogs.com if you haven't yet. Lots of info on amphibian extinctions, threats to frogs, ways to help, etc...

There are cool savethefrogs.com bumper stickers and SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirts as well, if you want to support their conservation activities.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
Hi,
Please check out savethefrogs.com if you haven't yet. Lots of info on amphibian extinctions, threats to frogs, ways to help, etc...

There are cool savethefrogs.com bumper stickers and SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirts as well, if you want to support their conservation activities.
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts
Am I too cynical to point out there are already great conservation organizations out there working on amphibian conservation, and the organizers of this group could avoid duplicating efforts by helping AArk or TWI, instead of starting a new organization?
Jim
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

You also might want to fact check your page
How to Help Save Frogs

The mountain yellow legged frog is dissappearing because of chytrid. The extra limbs on frogs occurs because of agricultural fertilizer runoff. It creates algal blooms which increase the number of snails ,which host a parasite, that lodges in limb budding sites creating multiple limbs. It`s the increase in snails that increases the # of parasites available to affect tadpoles.

Last edited by Roadrunner; 02-02-2009 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 02-02-2009, 04:31 PM
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm View Post
You also might want to fact check your page
How to Help Save Frogs

The mountain yellow legged frog is dissappearing because of chytrid. The extra limbs on frogs occurs because of agricultural fertilizer runoff. It creates algal blooms which increase the number of snails ,which host a parasite, that lodges in limb budding sites creating multiple limbs. It`s the increase in snails that increases the # of parasites available to affect tadpoles.
Which certainly casts doubt on the "truthiness" of this statement from the home page:
Quote:
Who we are
SAVE THE FROGS! is an international team of scientists, educators, policymakers and naturalists dedicated to protecting the world’s amphibian species:
There are a lot of other telltale signs that this site is actually the product of some guy banging out Dreamweaver pages in his parents basement, using conservation as a way to sell crappy Cafe Press products.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:26 AM
 
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm View Post
You also might want to fact check your page
How to Help Save Frogs

The mountain yellow legged frog is dissappearing because of chytrid. The extra limbs on frogs occurs because of agricultural fertilizer runoff. It creates algal blooms which increase the number of snails ,which host a parasite, that lodges in limb budding sites creating multiple limbs. It`s the increase in snails that increases the # of parasites available to affect tadpoles.
Hi frogfarm,
Chytrid is indeed a serious threat to this frog (Rachowicz et al. 2006), which is one reason I have spent the last 5 years conducting research on chytridiomycosis, a topic on which I have published 15 papers in peer-reviewed international journals such as Conservation Biology, Journal of Wildlife Diseases, Journal of Zoology and Diseases of Aquatic Organisms.

Introduced trout are another major threat (Vredenburg 2004).
And pesticides are a threat as well (Davidson 2004; Davidson et al. 2007).
There are rarely solitary threats to amphibians (Davidson and Knapp 2007).

REFERENCES
Davidson C (2004). Declining downwind: amphibian population declines in California and historical pesticide use. Ecological Applications 14:1892-1902.

Davidson C, Benard MF, Shaffer HB, Parker JM, O'Leary C, Conlon JM, et al. (2007). Effects of chytrid and carbaryl on survival, growth and skin peptide defenses in foothill yellow-legged frogs. Environmental Science Technology 41:1771-1776.

Davidson C, and Knapp RA (2007). Multiple stressors and amphibian declines: dual impacts of pesticides and fish on Yellow Legged Frogs. Ecological Applications 17:587–597

Rachowicz LJ, Knapp RA, Morgan JAT, Stice MJ, Vredenburg VT, Parker JM, et al. (2006). Emerging infectious disease as a proximate cause of amphibian mass mortality. Ecology 87:1671-1683.

Vredenburg VT (2004). Reversing introduced species effects: experimental removal of introduced fish leads to rapid recovery of a declining frog. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, USA 101:7646-7650.

Last edited by kmk5g; 02-08-2009 at 11:35 AM. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 02-08-2009, 01:09 PM
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And who are you? You haven`t introduced yourself or even given a name?
You don`t have to quote there is usually more than one problem, I realize that. Not listing the main killer for a specific locality of frogs might not look good when your trying to save frogs. People who saw Jeff Corwin`s special would think your not up on the situation since Chytrid is the main problem there, and has been for years.

Last edited by Roadrunner; 02-08-2009 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jehitch View Post
Which certainly casts doubt on the "truthiness" of this statement from the home page:

There are a lot of other telltale signs that this site is actually the product of some guy banging out Dreamweaver pages in his parents basement, using conservation as a way to sell crappy Cafe Press products.
It seems a bit premature to accuse this guy of merely capitalizing on amphibian declines to sell stuff. Dr. Kriger, Executive Director of the organization, does in fact have several peer-reviewed publications. Although I don't know him, his CV is posted on-line, and there is a link about the folks associated with "Save the Frogs" under "Who We Are."
Perhaps this info about the people affiliated with the site wasn't available at the site before, but there are actually a number of very respected scientists listed under "Board of Directors" and "Advisory Committee."
-Scott
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:01 PM
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And yet he wont ever sign his name..I am sorry but people who cant use their real name drive me nuts..
Brian
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:47 AM
 
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Hi everyone,
I apologize if my lack of a name introduction did not follow protocol; I am new to forums, and assumed my username, which bears my initials, would suffice. Also, I tend to avoid adding my name to publicly searchable places when I can avoid it. I am indeed the aforementioned Dr. Kerry Kriger, and am Founder & Executive Director of SAVE THE FROGS! (SAVE THE FROGS!), which is a nonprofit organization dedicated exclusively to amphibian conservation.

SAVE THE FROGS! has an Advisory Committee and a Board of Directors, as well as Articles of Incorporation and Bylaws that clearly state our legally recognized and enforceable nonprofit status and intentions. All this information has been publicly accessible on our Who We Are page since April 2008, when I built the website: Conservation Biology | Herpetology | Ecology

Information about me (including my background, publications, awards, and CV) is available at: Kerry Kriger

You will notice if you go to our donations page (which I hope you do, as SAVE THE FROGS! has a dearth of funding, and cannot accomplish our conservation goals without money) that no member of SAVE THE FROGS!, including myself, has ever received a paycheck. Thus, while I have indeed sat in a basement once or twice banging out Dreamweaver pages, as “jehitch” suggested, this has been done at my personal expense. Further, the pages I bang out are of high quality and high value, as every page bears my name and I take personal pride in every page of savethefrogs.com. I wonder if those who lambasted my original post would sacrifice 5 months of their full time effort, unpaid, to amphibian conservation, as I have done for SAVE THE FROGS!, and as I did for the first 2 years of my Ph.D. research. If indeed they would, they are free to contact me, as I can always use more SAVE THE FROGS! volunteers.

In response to the comments regarding the usefulness of SAVE THE FROGS!, everybody reading this thread should be very clear that amphibian conservation is failing, and that the species extinction rate is as high as at any point in the past thirty years, which is to say, 10,000 times higher than the fossil record suggests it should be. Nearly one-third of the world’s 6,450 amphibian species are threatened with extinction and may not survive the 21st century, and 200 species have already completely disappeared. With only 2,000 professional amphibian biologists worldwide, that means there is approximately one human being per threatened amphibian species. Just as you have a minimal chance of saving the human race from extinction by yourself, so too do amphibian biologists have only a slight chance of saving 2,000 species from extinction, if things remain as they are.

Drastic actions need to occur, and these actions are not being sufficiently taken care of by Treewalkers, Amphibian Ark, or any other group, though it should be clear that all of these groups are an essential part of the battle to save amphibians from the current mass extinction crisis they are in, and they all do their jobs well. The problem is that the scope of the amphibian extinction crisis is far more complex and overwhelming than the herpetological community currently has the monetary resources or manpower to overcome. Thus SAVE THE FROGS! is not “re-creating the wheel” as stated above. For instance, do you know of any amphibian conservation group that offers full scholarships to potential Ph.D. candidates? I do not. Will we be able to increase the number of herpetologists, or the amount of herpetological research if we cannot offer grants or scholarships, which would lure undergraduates into the field of herpetology when it comes time for them to seek out Ph.D. positions? No. People write me all the time asking for research money. I know of nowhere to send them, as money for herpetological research is hard to come by. What percent of the human population knows that amphibians are rapidly disappearing? 1%? Maybe 2%? I’ll guess less than 0.001%. Will politicians take action to reduce pesticide use if there is an uneducated public that does not demand action? No. Will they stop the new supermarket from building on that unprotected ephemeral wetland behind your house? No.

In response to FrogFarm, my previous post clearly and explicitly references several well-cited and well-written papers from well-respected journals detailing multiple threats to the mountain yellow frog. FrogFarm, do you know that chytrid is spread by the human movement of amphibians? If you own a frog farm, what steps do you take to ensure that you are not a contributor to the problem? What percent of amateurs and professionals involved in the trade or shipment of amphibians test every single amphibian for every known amphibian disease? None. Is it possible to test for diseases that we have yet to identify? No. Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, causative agent of chytridiomycosis, which in terms of biodiversity loss is the worst disease ever recorded, was not discovered until 1998; I often wonder how many other emerging infectious diseases are currently being shipped around the world unbeknownst to even those people who love frogs, as I’m sure you do. Have either TreeWalkers, AmphibianArk or any other conservation organization infiltrated every single pet store in America, China, Indonesia and India with sufficient information regarding such issues? I will guess that they have not.

So I think we can all agree that amphibian conservation has a long way to go. I welcome your future support for SAVE THE FROGS! and welcome any constructive comments.

With all due respect,
Kerry

***********************************************
Dr. Kerry Kriger
SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization
Executive Director
Ecologist
SAVE THE FROGS!
Kerry Kriger

P.O. Box 2145
Centreville, VA 20122 USA
Phone (USA): 703-376-7945
[email protected]

"All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be
finished in the first 1,000 days...but let us begin." -- John F.
Kennedy
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Old 02-09-2009, 12:53 AM
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They do have a "Who We Are" page:
Conservation Biology | Herpetology | Ecology
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:03 AM
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That's fine Kyle - but he just finally posted what he probably should have posted in the first place.

A full, concise, introduction to both himself and his organization.

s
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:01 AM
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nice

IMO
I see no foul in the Dr's initial post or in the way he responded to the less then hospitable responses. Let's try giving someone a chance, particularly since it would appear the Dr does have a vested interest in the animals we all profess to care deeply about.

case in point...
You all wanted to see a big introduction but..personally I only know jehitch as 'Jim' signed under some of his posts, frogfarm as frogfarm [yes I know you Aaron but for anyone else finding your bio introduction on DB now would be impossible if it exists at all], Brian of course couldnt think of a more entertaining screenname so he used the one is parents thought up :-), and Scott as s from Maine. Maybe now everyone should introduce themselves to Dr Kriger. no?

What I'm saying here is that the Dr could have been offered some reasonable benefit of doubt, yes? and perhaps initially just asked to provide more information to the community? Which he eventually did despite the cold welcome.

Signed,
Shawn
[an M.D. from N.H., who knows precious little on how to protect the amphibians of this planet, but desires that someone be allowed to try. A frog fancier who finds it hard enough just to keep his own damn animals alive, and a DB assistant who is all too often surprised by how his frog friends behave online].
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sports_doc View Post
nice

IMO
I see no foul in the Dr's initial post or in the way he responded to the less then hospitable responses. Let's try giving someone a chance, particularly since it would appear the Dr does have a vested interest in the animals we all profess to care deeply about.

case in point...
You all wanted to see a big introduction but..personally I only know jehitch as 'Jim' signed under some of his posts, frogfarm as frogfarm [yes I know you Aaron but for anyone else finding your bio introduction on DB now would be impossible if it exists at all], Brian of course couldnt think of a more entertaining screenname so he used the one is parents thought up :-), and Scott as s from Maine. Maybe now everyone should introduce themselves to Dr Kriger. no?

What I'm saying here is that the Dr could have been offered some reasonable benefit of doubt, yes? and perhaps initially just asked to provide more information to the community? Which he eventually did despite the cold welcome.

Signed,
Shawn
[an M.D. from N.H., who knows precious little on how to protect the amphibians of this planet, but desires that someone be allowed to try. A frog fancier who finds it hard enough just to keep his own damn animals alive, and a DB assistant who is all too often surprised by how his frog friends behave online].
If I dint use my real name that make me a hypocrite .
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:23 AM
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No need as I am not asking you to support my cause or organization.

Now - if I'm trying to sell something, I make darn sure people know who I am.

That said - things were settled just fine before you posted Shawn. No need for it.

s

[edit: ... and as negative as this reads, I stand by it. If I'm going to ask a board to "support my (our) cause", I'm going to introduce myself. When I wrote on behalf of IAD and/or TWI - I always signed my full name and my location. This is exactly the same thing.]
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... and Scott as s from Maine. Maybe now everyone should introduce themselves to Dr Kriger. no? ...
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
<snip>(SAVE THE FROGS!), which is a nonprofit organization dedicated exclusively to amphibian conservation.
Dr. Kriger
Forgive my cynicism, developed through 25 years spent as a journalist. But, the first thing I do when a group suggests it is a nonprofit organization is to search its site for an indication as to its legal nonprofit status. I checked all the obvious places a nonprofit group would normally list this information on its website, and have not been able to locate it.

Can you tell me where this information is listed, or explain under what governmental agency regulations your group is classified as nonprofit?

Also, your site states
Quote:
SAVE THE FROGS! is a registered trademark of Kerry Kriger
Can you tell me why this trademark is registered in your name as an individual, instead of the organization which bears its name?

Also, a search of Google brings up no mentions of your group in articles by either on-line or print media in the first five pages of results. Can you supply some links to articles that have been written about your organization that have appeared in the media?

Thanks
Jim Hitchcock
Rainforest Station
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:03 AM
 
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Hi Jim,
SAVE THE FROGS! is incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia as a nonprofit, nonstock organization, meaning (1) no employee or director can take bonuses or salaries higher than is a legitimate income, and (2) when the organization dissolves the assets must be distributed to a 501(c)(3) organization, and not to the Board of Directors. Our Articles of Incorporation and Corporate Bylaws are available at the top of our Who We Are page, in paragraph #1: Conservation Biology | Herpetology | Ecology
If you would like further details regarding our nonprofit status, please contact me via email, as this is not an appropriate venue for that material to be discussed.

An article on SAVE THE FROGS! that I wrote, and which is published in Phyllomedusa, a South American Journal of Herpetology, is here:
http://www.savethefrogs.com/kerry_kr...-FROGS-7-2.pdf

There are no "official" articles on us, based on our lack of funds with which to advertise, and the fact that I have not yet been able to direct much time towards this. However, I currently have a team of volunteers compiling contact information for radio stations and newspapers in their state's large metropolitan areas, and I will soon be contacting them to raise publicity for April 28th's Save The Frogs Day: Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009
Anybody reading this thread is welcome to send us an email if they wish to do the same and we can get you set up. Any reader who knows media contacts should please email me at [email protected]. Anybody with children should show their teachers the Save The Frogs Day webpage.

Regarding the trademark, which is lodged with the USPTO, it is in my name, (1) because I thought of it and was first to use it in commerce, which took place prior to the incorporation of SAVE THE FROGS!, and (2) the USPTO application for trademarks required it be in one person's name.

Regarding http://savethefrogs.com/cafepress
This page was conceived of, designed, and is maintained by a SAVE THE FROGS! volunteer. As stated on that site, all our proceeds go to our amphibian conservation efforts. Cafepress does not write checks out in my name, but instead in the name of the organization. All those products help us spread the word about amphibian declines and raise money to take action. Plus they look good. If you have seen a better Frogs of Australia calendar, please let me know.

I strongly encourage everybody reading this thread to buy something at SAVE THE FROGS! - Gifts for Frog Lovers or to pick up an educational Frogs of Australia poster in the SAVE THE FROGS! gift center Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts

And no, I have no qualms about such a blatant advertisement, being that (1) it positively benefits amphibian conservation, and the money is direly needed, and (2) this forum has required an hour or two of my time tonight. This time could have been spent doing any number of perhaps more crucial tasks; though of course I welcome the discussion.

If you want to keep track of what I am up to on a daily basis, please follow me on Twitter:

Twitter / savethefrogs

and/or on the soon to be announced FrogBlog: The FrogBlog
(constructed by another SAVE THE FROGS! volunteer).

Sincerely,
Kerry
(if my first name will now suffice in posts. I am always contactable through the savethefrogs.com contact page).
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:10 AM
 
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I will also add that while we have received little media attention (in part due to our being less than one year old), the SAVE THE FROGS! logo and link is found on the AmphibiaWeb homepage. This is a PageRank7 site that receives 25,000 queries per day and is maintained by UCBerkeley. We are also currently featured on the AmphibiaTree | Assembling the Amphibian Tree of Life homepage.

That hopefully convinces the remaining skeptics of the authenticity of SAVE THE FROGS!.
Kerry
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:34 AM
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Hello Dr. Kriger,
I apologize but I have been around the pet trade for 20+ years and I`ve seen a lot of swindler`s. I don`t have the time to hit up your whole page and verify your credentials and validity of your organization.
I pushed hard for conservation donations to be a part of the classifieds here. I`ve donated over, well a lot of money to other organizations to save amphibians in the past. I get chytrid tests done on my frogs. I`m buying and managing critical amphibian habitat. I only buy animals that have been tested for chytrid or test them when they arrive. I only breed to sell, I don`t just buy amphibians and sell them to make a buck. I know a lot of jobbers and no, they don`t test. Chytrid is already throughout most of the U.S. and it`s been spread thru most states by the fishing bait industry, thru tads scooped up w/ the bait and thru salamanders. Are you aware that it can also be spread on researchers bagged muddy boots for a time? Also, TWI is working on supplying a testing program for people breeding amphibians in the pet trade. So, yes, I`m pretty aware of the problem and the situation.
What is your proposal for the pet trade in regards to the next infectious disease? Ban it or to educate? I guarantee that very little of the pet trade will sterilize, test and treat. If your wroking towards halting transport or imposing restrictions on amphibians your hindering our efforts to keep the species alive in captivity.
If your going to solicit donations from a group of people who, mostly, are breeding frogs because we know their perils, you have to understand that w/out an introduction, you aren`t going to get a warm welcome. We thought we knew of all the legitimate amphibian conservation organizations out there.
And sportsdoc, my website is in my signature and I`m not asking for donations. I think Brent himself did a write up here about TWI before asking for donations and has been an active member of the community. I haven`t seen anyone from SaveAFrog here either and we`ve had most of the other organizations as speakers at Naac or IAD or MWFF, etc. Don`t act like it wasn`t normal to be skeptical.
I can`t donate in this economy and already am working w/ some good organizations but I could always advise on breeding frogs for free and do.
Sincerely, Aaron Handzlik
Aaron`s Frog Farm

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
In response to FrogFarm, my previous post clearly and explicitly references several well-cited and well-written papers from well-respected journals detailing multiple threats to the mountain yellow frog. FrogFarm, do you know that chytrid is spread by the human movement of amphibians? If you own a frog farm, what steps do you take to ensure that you are not a contributor to the problem? What percent of amateurs and professionals involved in the trade or shipment of amphibians test every single amphibian for every known amphibian disease? None. Is it possible to test for diseases that we have yet to identify? No. Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, causative agent of chytridiomycosis, which in terms of biodiversity loss is the worst disease ever recorded, was not discovered until 1998; I often wonder how many other emerging infectious diseases are currently being shipped around the world unbeknownst to even those people who love frogs, as I’m sure you do. Have either TreeWalkers, AmphibianArk or any other conservation organization infiltrated every single pet store in America, China, Indonesia and India with sufficient information regarding such issues? I will guess that they have not.

So I think we can all agree that amphibian conservation has a long way to go. I welcome your future support for SAVE THE FROGS! and welcome any constructive comments.

With all due respect,
Kerry

***********************************************
Dr. Kerry Kriger
SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization
Executive Director
Ecologist
SAVE THE FROGS!
Kerry Kriger

P.O. Box 2145
Centreville, VA 20122 USA
Phone (USA): 703-376-7945
[email protected]

"All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be
finished in the first 1,000 days...but let us begin." -- John F.
Kennedy

Last edited by Roadrunner; 02-09-2009 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 02-09-2009, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
Hi Jim,
SAVE THE FROGS! is incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia as a nonprofit, nonstock organization, meaning (1) no employee or director can take bonuses or salaries higher than is a legitimate income, and (2) when the organization dissolves the assets must be distributed to a 501(c)(3) organization, and not to the Board of Directors.
Dr. Kriger,
Thanks for the additional information. A search of the IRS database of charities and nonprofit organizations does not come up with any groups with your name. Can you email me with information as to your IRS status? My email is [email protected].
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
There are no "official" articles on us, based on our lack of funds with which to advertise, and the fact that I have not yet been able to direct much time towards this. However, I currently have a team of volunteers compiling contact information for radio stations and newspapers in their state's large metropolitan areas, and I will soon be contacting them to raise publicity for April 28th's Save The Frogs Day: Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009
Editorial copy in major print media is not based on advertising dollars spent. If you don't mind a little advice from someone who spent his lifetime in print media, this should be one of your first priorities upon forming a new group.

Start with your local newspapers, and contact the features editor suggesting your organization warrants a story. A story in a local newspaper may not seem important, but it lends credibility, and can be used to leverage coverage from larger publications.

This time of year tends to be a slow time for news stories, so you need to hit this quick before the news cycle starts ramping up for the beginning of summer. Other good times to hit up the media for coverage are late summer, the week between Christmas and New Year's Day, and shortly after the first of the year. These are times that journalists are scrambling to find stories to fill their publications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
Regarding the trademark, which is lodged with the USPTO, it is in my name, (1) because I thought of it and was first to use it in commerce, which took place prior to the incorporation of SAVE THE FROGS!, and (2) the USPTO application for trademarks required it be in one person's name.
A quick search of the USPTO database disagrees with point #2
Quote:
Word Mark COCA-COLA
Owner (APPLICANT) The Coca-Cola Company CORPORATION DELAWARE One Coca-Cola Plaza Atlanta GEORGIA 30313
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
Regarding http://savethefrogs.com/cafepress
This page was conceived of, designed, and is maintained by a SAVE THE FROGS! volunteer. As stated on that site, all our proceeds go to our amphibian conservation efforts. Cafepress does not write checks out in my name, but instead in the name of the organization.
Another bit of unsolicited advice: One of the major factors used in analyzing nonprofit effectiveness is the percentage of donors' dollars that go to cover overhead costs. Cafe Press is about the least cost efficient method of creating promotional items. If you worked with a local printer, a much higher percentage of donors' dollars would go toward frog conservation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
(2) this forum has required an hour or two of my time tonight. This time could have been spent doing any number of perhaps more crucial tasks; though of course I welcome the discussion.
With all due respect, what tasks are more crucial than publicizing your organization with a group of people that is arguably the most knowledgeable and active in frog conservation of any discussion board on the internet?

The best of luck with your endeavors, and I applaud your willingness to work toward these goals. But I continue to maintain the opinion that your efforts might be more well spent helping an existing organization that already has answered all of these questions I've posed, rather than having to spend crucial time answering them all over again.

Thank you again for spending the time to clear up my concerns,
JIm
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:24 PM
 
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Hi Jim,

With regards to using Cafepress as opposed to using a local printer:

(1) Cafepress reaches a wider audience, as many people who would never end up at SAVE THE FROGS! end up at Cafepress.

(2) SAVE THE FROGS! only has the funds, manpower and warehouse space to stock so much. Cafepress is print-on-demand, they handle all transactions, and it generates revenue at no time or monetary expense to SAVE THE FROGS!

(3) SAVE THE FROGS! does indeed print certain items:
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts
Our number of items will grow as our logistical infrastucture and finances grow.

With regards to SAVE THE FROGS!' overhead:
We have no offices and therefore pay no rent. I'll also re-iterate that SAVE THE FROGS! has been an entirely volunteer effort, and neither myself nor my volunteers who created cafepress.com/savethefrogs have ever been paid.

Regarding contacting the media:
I agree 100%. There is nothing in the news now. As I said I have a team of volunteers collecting radio stations and newspapers' contact info and I will start contacting them ASAP. If it has not been done it is because, as you can imagine, I have 325 other things on my list as well. I am the webmaster, fundraiser, account (yes indeed we do have a 501(c)(3) form in review with the IRS, who is incredibly slow to review these things), publicist, marketer, graphic designer, warehouse shipping boy, and a multitude of other things. I also still attempt to write scientific papers. Anybody reading this thread is of course welcome to call their local news agency and tell them to contact me at [email protected] if they wish to interview me.

And yes, I agree that Dendroboard discussions are valuable. As I said, this was my first post to the board. I am glad it has generated some discussion, which I was not expecting.

Regarding the USPTO: A highly respected and experienced lawyer handled the application.

As for me dissolving SAVE THE FROGS! and working at another organization instead:
(1) Which organization, and in what respect?

(2) Do they have funds to hire me? None have yet approached me offering me a job (though I have not solicited work from them).

(3) Who then will take care of all the things SAVE THE FROGS! does and has plans to do, for which no other organization has plans?

Who is giving out scholarships? I can't think of any amphibian conservation organization that has offered a $20,000 Ph.D. scholarship in recent years. My own came from the National Geographic Society and the Eppley Foundation for Research, two organizations with no specific interest in amphibians.

Who is giving out Conference Travel Grants to students? Did you know that SAVE THE FROGS! is the only organization that is currently offering a travel grant to students so they can present research at the Joint Meeting of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists in July?

What amphibian conservation organization is hiring lawyers to fight bad laws and bad businesses? The Center for Biological Diversity (NOT an amphibian conservation organization) is the only organization I know of with an amphibian-related lawsuit going (one total lawsuit).

What other organization has a goal of making the amphibian extinction crisis common knowledge by 2013? No other amphibian conservation organizations have these goals.

(4) Would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet? Why does it matter what name I choose to work under? Personally, I think SAVE THE FROGS! is a great name. It conveys instant meaning and the ordinary person on the street likes it and remembers it.

You appear to be a professional breeder. Would you think it odd if in this free society, which we are so proud of, I suggested you should be working with FrogFarm? And I don't mean you would be in CHARGE of FrogFarm's operation, I mean you would work FOR FrogFarm. He would be your boss and you would do as he commands. Want to go breed frogs in Costa Rica this winter? "Sorry Jim, we need you here at the FrogFarm. Maybe next winter if you're good." You'd probably think that was ludicrous!

Please also remember that the IUCN, CI, WWF, CBD, Sierra Club, NRDC and a multitude of other great organizations do not focus on amphibians. Should we depend on them to protect amphibians? That is not their mission. They may care about amphibians today, but maybe it would be wolves tomorrow and bears the next day.

Kerry
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
Hi Jim,
SAVE THE FROGS! is incorporated in the Commonwealth of Virginia as a nonprofit, nonstock organization
Dr. Kriger,
I searched for several iterations of the name "Save the Frogs" on the nonprofit database at https://www.npo.tax.virginia.gov and it came back: "Your search found no matching records." What is the exact legal name of your organization?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
As for me dissolving SAVE THE FROGS! and working at another organization instead:
(1) Which organization, and in what respect?

(2) Do they have funds to hire me? None have yet approached me offering me a job (though I have not solicited work from them).

(3) Who then will take care of all the things SAVE THE FROGS! does and has plans to do, for which no other organization has plans?
Did you approach any existing organizations before forming your own, asking if they would be interested in the programs you are developing? You are willing to volunteer your services for your organization, but point #2 suggests you would not be willing to do so for an existing organization. Why is this?

Any time you create a new organization, you are creating an additional set of administrative tasks, as indicated when you stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
If it has not been done it is because, as you can imagine, I have 325 other things on my list as well. I am the webmaster, fundraiser, account (yes indeed we do have a 501(c)(3) form in review with the IRS, who is incredibly slow to review these things), publicist, marketer, graphic designer, warehouse shipping boy, and a multitude of other things. I also still attempt to write scientific papers.
You would not have to be all these things if you developed your programs within an existing organization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
Who is giving out scholarships? I can't think of any amphibian conservation organization that has offered a $20,000 Ph.D. scholarship in recent years. My own came from the National Geographic Society and the Eppley Foundation for Research, two organizations with no specific interest in amphibians.

Who is giving out Conference Travel Grants to students? Did you know that SAVE THE FROGS! is the only organization that is currently offering a travel grant to students so they can present research at the Joint Meeting of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists in July?

What amphibian conservation organization is hiring lawyers to fight bad laws and bad businesses? The Center for Biological Diversity (NOT an amphibian conservation organization) is the only organization I know of with an amphibian-related lawsuit going (one total lawsuit).
Can you provide us with a list of the scholarships and travel grants your group has awarded, along with the names of recipients and contact info? I'm not asking for specific amounts per grant, but totals for each category.

Can you provide us with information about the bad laws and bad businesses you have hired lawyers to fight, and what results these lawsuits provided to benefit amphibians?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
What other organization has a goal of making the amphibian extinction crisis common knowledge by 2013? No other amphibian conservation organizations have these goals.
About
Quote:
Q: Does TWI have an education mission?

A: Yes, TWI is committed to educating the public about the ongoing amphibian crisis and the importance of maintaining healthy amphibian populations. TWI works with schools and universities through both the Amphibian Steward Network and Operation Frog Pond to get teachers and students directly involved with amphibian conservation. In addition, through collaboration with TWI, Justin Yeager has spearheaded Operation Atelopus, which is producing a documentary about the devastating effects of chytrid fungus on neotropical amphibians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
(4) Would a rose by any other name not smell as sweet? Why does it matter what name I choose to work under? Personally, I think SAVE THE FROGS! is a great name. It conveys instant meaning and the ordinary person on the street likes it and remembers it.
I have no quarrel with the name, my issue is with the duplication of administration (which in a quote above you admit is keeping you from your mission).

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
You appear to be a professional breeder. Would you think it odd if in this free society, which we are so proud of, I suggested you should be working with FrogFarm? And I don't mean you would be in CHARGE of FrogFarm's operation, I mean you would work FOR FrogFarm. He would be your boss and you would do as he commands. Want to go breed frogs in Costa Rica this winter? "Sorry Jim, we need you here at the FrogFarm. Maybe next winter if you're good." You'd probably think that was ludicrous!
Actually, I breed few species, and am mainly a retailer. So far, a "nonprofit" retailer, although by circumstance rather than design.

I do work closely with many breeders, and I am mainly supplied by hobbyists who produce more frogs than they can sell within the hobby.

The difference between you and I is that I am not asking people to give me money which must be in part spent to duplicate administrative functions that already exist. If I choose to duplicate the need for administration (whether it is time or money spent), it is my problem and my problem alone.

Again, with all due respect, your last quote is rather telling. You seem to believe it's more important to be 'in CHARGE" than to get things done. I've seen this over and over in my years as a journalist: people decide they have to do something to solve a problem, and rather than searching out existing organizations to which they can provide assistance, they decide to start their own organization.

As an extreme example: after hurricane Katrina my newspaper was inundated with ad hoc groups collecting items for disaster relief - even though the Red Cross and Salvation Army said over and over that what was needed was monetary donations - the items could be purchased on site rather than spend money trucking them down. One group went so far as to organize a caravan of cars to deliver the items when the Red Cross refused to deliver them to a specific location. So, in an attempt to help, these people sent a dozen cars with drivers inexperienced in disaster situations into an area where the few roads that were intact were needed by actual disaster professionals. Once they arrived, they had to be fed and fueled for the return trip, using up commodities desperately needed for relief in the area.

I'm not saying your efforts equal this example, I am simply using it as an extreme analogy to point out the problems that arise when people ignore the assets available to them, and attempt to go it alone.

Again, the best of luck in your endeavors,

Jim
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:27 PM
 
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me gods you people are cold, so what if he dident introduce himself? He has now and you still find something to pick on; I for one think it was no big deal that he dident do it right away and I think dr. K's later posts have done everything to tell you he's not just some guy who wants your money. I for one agree with him in saying that groups like Twi and others are not doing enough to save frogs world wide (but I'm saying that with all due respect, to date twi has been the best out there) you tell him that his first job should have been to get the word out about his organization but I dident even know twi was around till a couple of weeks ago, where's there advertisment? And one of you guys first concerns was maybe he should support a group like twi instead of makeing a new one, say what? Conservation organizations are like chocolate cake, I could eat them all day and I'm pretty sure they can play nice with each other and work toward the same goal, saveing our hoppy little friends and please before you begin (and I know you will anyway) please reframe from flameing all other me just because I have only a couple of posts.
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Old 02-09-2009, 06:17 PM
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I won't flame you.

But Spock would.

s
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Old 02-09-2009, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Z5guy View Post
me gods you people are cold, so what if he dident introduce himself? He has now and you still find something to pick on; I for one think it was no big deal that he dident do it right away and I think dr. K's later posts have done everything to tell you he's not just some guy who wants your money. I for one agree with him in saying that groups like Twi and others are not doing enough to save frogs world wide (but I'm saying that with all due respect, to date twi has been the best out there) you tell him that his first job should have been to get the word out about his organization but I dident even know twi was around till a couple of weeks ago, where's there advertisment? And one of you guys first concerns was maybe he should support a group like twi instead of makeing a new one, say what? Conservation organizations are like chocolate cake, I could eat them all day and I'm pretty sure they can play nice with each other and work toward the same goal, saveing our hoppy little friends and please before you begin (and I know you will anyway) please reframe from flameing all other me just because I have only a couple of posts.
To take your dietary analogy to its conclusion:

Let's say you eat eight pieces of chocolate cake a day.

You can buy eight individual size pieces of chocolate cake for $1.49 each, costing you $11.92 per day.

Or, you can buy an entire cake, and cut it into eight pieces for $5.99.

Even if you pay a few pennies each for ziploc bags to put the pieces in so you can eat them wherever you are, you are still going to save more than $5 a day. With that savings, you could buy an extra chocolate cake every two days, increase the amount of cake you eat by 50% and have money left over for Pepto Bismol.

The difference between your analogy and the issue being discussed is that there will always be more chocolate cake.

Jim
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Old 02-09-2009, 06:52 PM
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"No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat" - Sichuan proverb

Bill
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Old 02-09-2009, 06:54 PM
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OK - I should've noticed that the Spock in question is "Bad Spock". Bad Spock would not have been disappointed in the logic, he would have just killed the person.

My bad.

s
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"No matter if it is a white cat or a black cat; as long as it can catch mice, it is a good cat" - Sichuan proverb
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Old 02-09-2009, 09:03 PM
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I hope the interrogation has run it course.

I think more separate organizations have a good side too. Sense everyone is comparing things to food for some reason, I like mcdonalds chicken nuggets better than burger kings, but like burger kings fries better and they serve chilli which I cant get enough of. There is enough room for more than one fast food chain. Not to mention they are good at different things, and if something happens to one, there are backups. Not putting all your eggs in one basket is a good thing sometimes to. Even if it cost a little more to buy that extra basket.

I say welcome SAVETHEFROGS! And good luck with all your future endeavors.
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:31 AM
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Well put, but BKs fries suck...
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Old 02-10-2009, 04:37 AM
 
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Dear Jim (jehitch),
My previous posts in this thread provide links to many webpages and documents that prove the integrity of SAVE THE FROGS! Did you read the Articles of Incorporation that is easily downloadable at the top of the SAVE THE FROGS! Who We Are page? Do you think I would post a faked version of a legally binding document in a visible online location? The VA State Corporation Commission is the correct department for you to call, should you have questions. Have you looked through our Who We Are page yet? And do you think AmphibiaWeb/UCBerkeley would put us on their homepage if we were fake?

***************************
You ask: "Did you approach any existing organizations before forming your own, asking if they would be interested in the programs you are developing?"

No (though see point 4 below).

(1) I have a Ph.D. and am well acquainted with what is happening in the world of amphibian conservation, as I have attended and presented at national and international herpetological conferences for many years. I will act independently when necessary to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

(2) My philosophy is that you don't tell people what you are going to do, you show them what you've done.

(3) This is the USA and is a free society that was founded on the ideals that if you want to do something and you believe in it and you work hard, then you not only can do it, you should do it. I am an American citizen, and I need nobody's permission to start a nonprofit, just as you did not need FrogFarm's approval before you started your business.

(3) What organizations do you refer to? Amphibian Ark? There is virtually zero overlap in what we do. SAVE THE FROGS! does not captive breed. TreeWalkers? According to their website, half their mission is captive breeding, and half is building frog ponds. Again, no overlap. And honestly, I had never heard of them until I built my website's Relevant Links page, (which is the most thorough of its kind available). I am not familiar with any of their Directors (which of course is not to say they are not qualified), which I assume is because they must be from breeding backgrounds whereas I am from an academia background. Of course, all organizations attempt some degree of education.

(4) The Amphibian Conservation Action Plan (ACAP 2005) states that to successfully conserve amphibian populations it will require $400million each 5yr period (and that document forgot to mention or budget for education!). The IUCN/CI/ASG was charged with raising this money.

So 2 years after the ACAP was released (6 months prior to the incoroporation of SAVE THE FROGS!), I talked to those people and I asked 2 questions:

Q: How many people are working on raising this money?
A: 2

Q: How much money has been raised over the last 2 years?
A: $400,000

I have not told you all this but I am also a math teacher. $400,000/$400,000,000 = 0.1% of the necessary money, and this with the backing of a major international body. How much more impetus to take matters into one’s own hands does one need than that?

****************************************
Jim, you say
"You are willing to volunteer your services for your organization, but point #2 suggests you would not be willing to do so for an existing organization. Why is this?"

I do plenty of volunteer work for non-frog issues. Why would you even expect that of me though when I clearly stated in previous posts in this thread that I have spent 5 months of my full-time effort working unpaid for SAVE THE FROGS!? I am not independently wealthy. Will you let me sleep on your couch Jim? I do like Michigan, and I can’t pay rent because I spend my time saving frogs even though I could be making $60,000 lecturing. (Sorry, I had to ask!)

Do you know that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread not a single one has contacted me offering their volunteer services? Who here actually cares about frogs? Someone must. How much though? [email protected]

*****************************
Jim, you say:
“Any time you create a new organization, you are creating an additional set of administrative tasks, as indicated when you stated…”

When our country’s forefathers founded this great nation in 1776 (they could have just let the King of England administer as there was already a British Commonwealth running our country), their decision to go solo created a lot of additional administrative tasks. The two that spring to my mind are that they had to spend precious time writing a Declaration of Independence and a Constitution with a Bill of Rights. Who here doubts that the time writing those documents was well spent?

***********************************
As for your suggestion that I like being in charge more than accomplishing goals:
(1) I do like working for myself. What’s wrong with that? I spent 21 years of my life in schools and universities, do I not deserve the opportunity to fulfill my dreams in whatever manner that entails? Do you want to work for FrogFarm? Petco? PetSmart? You don’t. I take the blame if it fails and I take the credit if it succeeds. I like challenges.

(2) SAVE THE FROGS! was not created so as to be an outlet to fulfill my egomaniacal urges if that’s what you are getting at. I have clearly detailed in many ways in this thread the necessity for what SAVE THE FROGS! does and intends to do.

(3) Would you rather have a leader or a follower in charge of saving the world? I view my job as saving the world. When the frogs die, we die.

**************************************************
As for you asking how many lawyers we’ve hired, etc., I have clearly stated in the above posts that:
(1) those things are our GOALS, and
(2) those goals require many millions of dollars, which we do not yet have.

How long will it take us to accomplish these goals?
Based on the fact that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread, not one has donated to SAVE THE FROGS! (at least not after having clicked through from Dendroboard), I’m guessing it may be a while. 2,000 threatened amphibian species out there. Pollution, pesticides, global warming, invasive species, infectious diseases spread by humans, over-harvesting for the pet and food trades, habitat destruction. An uneducated public. A society that does not value wilderness or wildlife. Third world countries that have no environmental standards and no means with which to implement them even if they existed.

Who reading this post cares enough about frogs to go right now to the savethefrogs.com donations page Donate to SAVE THE FROGS! | Nonprofit | Environmental Charityand donate $10 to SAVE THE FROGS! ?

Who can spare $20 for an educational Frogs of Australia poster that they can give to their kid’s school, or $25 for a 100% organic cotton SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirt featuring the world’s coolest frog, the Southern Orange-eyed Treefrog, to ensure that SAVE THE FROGS! has the funds to do all the things that need to be done to protect amphibians: educating our uninformed, uneducated public; fighting bad laws; fighting bad businesses and corrupt government agencies that sell our land to the highest bidder and let the pesticide companies poison our air and water; buying critical habitat; funding scientific research; providing scholarships; creating a herpetological community 10 times larger than it currently is?
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts

Who reading this post has ten minutes to go apply for a SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card featuring Dendrobates tinctorius, which on top of being the single most insanely awesome looking Visa card on Planet Earth, earns SAVE THE FROGS! a $50 bonus when activated and used for the first time? Can anyone here spare ten minutes? If so, please have a look at: SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card No annual fee, no cost to you.

Who here can go to the Save The Frogs Day (April 28th, 2009) webpage and then tell their kid’s teachers about it? Did you know about the 1st Annual Frog Art Contest and 1st Annual Frog Poetry Contest? Who can print out the flyers on those pages and have their kids put them up at school? Did you know the winning entries will be used to publish a book of frog art and frog poetry, with all proceeds benefiting SAVE THE FROGS’ legally recognized nonprofit amphibian conservation goals? Plus there are cash prizes, funded from my own pocket. Each of those pages has a donations page. You could help fund the jackpot (currently $500 for each contest). The higher the jackpot, the faster word will propogate through the internet, the more people will learn about frog declines, and the higher the quality of the entries:
Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009
Frog Art Contest | Cash Prizes
Frog Poetry Contest | Cash Prizes

Does anybody here care enough about frogs to email five of their best friends to tell them to check out SAVE THE FROGS!? Did you know our How to Help page lists about 50 ways people can help? It’s far more thorough than any I’ve ever seen elsewhere: How to Help Save Frogs

Who here can call or write their local newspaper or radio or TV station telling them that amphibians are the most threatened group of animals on the planet, that nearly one third of the world’s 6,450 species are threatened with extinction, that 200 species have already disappeared in the last 30 years, and that SAVE THE FROGS! is able to provide them with more information in the form of a free interview? And that they should do this to help us promote Save The Frogs Day (April 28th) a global event in which hopefully thousands of schools worldwide will participate… contac[email protected]

Every adult reading this reply has gotten so far into this thread and into this message that two things are clear: (1) you care about frogs and (2) you’re not working three jobs in order to feed the kids. You do have either time or money. If the members of Dendroboard can’t contribute either their time or their money to SAVE THE FROGS!, then amphibian conservation surely is doomed.

Sincerely,
Kerry Kriger, Ph.D.
Founder & Executive Director of SAVE THE FROGS!
Kerry Kriger

“I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see...A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.”
--Neo, The Matrix
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Old 02-10-2009, 05:06 AM
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p.s isnt that a Dendrobates azureaus on the credit card?
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Old 02-10-2009, 05:20 AM
 
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Species was split in to azureus and tinctorius, and this is tinctorius.

Synonymy by Wollenberg, Veith, Noonan, and Lötters, 2006, Copeia, 2006: 623-629
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Old 02-10-2009, 10:47 AM
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Kerry,

First let me apologize for our quick to react, over passionate members. They really mean no harm. We do though as stated get some people attempted to scam us and or others. With that said many are very passionate about groups like TWI and etc which they are actively involved in.

I tend to lean on the side that 1-2-3-4 groups are not going to solve these issues, and that any and all help should be welcomed. I welcome you and your organization to the site, and in my limited time have checked out the site which seems rather legit to me.

On a lighter note, so your saying an azureus is a tinc again? What the? I thought it had been finalized the other way. Its a tinc, its not, its a tinc its not... Do we really know?
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:27 AM
 
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Hi Kyle, No problem, I'm not easily offended and I understand the root of the debate as I've heard it all before from various locations (just not all at once!).


SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card

Regarding azureus vs tinctorius, I am not a taxonomist, so I sent the above photo to Dr. Crawford of the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute (dna.ac) a couple weeks ago. This is his email to me, in full:
"That's correct, it's "tinctorius". Azureus is just a tinctorius that losts its spots...

Synonymy by Wollenberg, Veith, Noonan, and Lötters, 2006, Copeia, 2006: 623-629.

Rock on!!!! Keep up the great work!!!
-AJC"

Kerry
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:55 PM
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that all of these anthropomorphical organizations get their way, and all of the frogs and the land they live on is finally protected...what do you think their next step would be?

No exotic pets of any kind for anyone.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:00 PM
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First off I`d like to apologize. None of my boss` liked me when I started questioning thei methods and what and how they were going to accomplish thei goals. I don`t know how to ask where it would sound nice, but I mean no offense.

I volunteered and you didn`t answer my questions, maybe you missed my post. It asked about your views about the pet trade. Your statement about the pet trade made me wonder your stance and feelings and agenda w/ the pet trade.
And that`s pretty accusatory and arrogant saying we don`t care about frogs when some of us haven`t had a vacation in 10 years because they`ve been trying to conserve them in captivity, since other countries really don`t listen to us about putting frogs over their building agenda`s. Also I have seen the donations to these other groups and this group of people is very generous to conservation programs. Maybe it`s the way you`ve handled yourself here that has led to the volunteer base you describe.
That hits home because I used to be a field researcher and gave it up because I didn`t think it was doing any good w/ the projects I worked on. Although I LOVED doing fieldwork I left it because I`d do better saving frogs with what I`m doing now. I didn`t think it was or could be done fast enough to save them. Thus my "job" saving frogs. I couldv`e made a lot more money doing a 60,000$ a year lecture circuit too, if I had finished my degrees. So since I took a lower pay to save frogs MYSELF, I take offense to that statement.

Now on to the lawyers and school grants. How will this help? I`ve worked a lot of field research jobs and I didn`t really see a lack of people interested, only a lack of jobs/positions/funding for research for those people. How will putting more people into the education system save frogs?

Lawyers. How many cases have been won? How much is paid to the lawyers if they don`t win the case? What cases can you make a good argument that would stop business` in this economy? It seems that a hi dollar amt for lawyers and cases not won could potentially take away all your funds w/ nothing accomplished.
I`m sorry to give you the third degree about this but I do donate a lot of what I make to saving frogs and since I do, I want to know exactly where my money is going. I quit being a researcher because I didn`t see enough movement and I won`t donate if I think my money is going into a black hole. This is why I support who I do, because there are other orgs that are aligned w/ my work and my view on how to save frogs till we figure out what we can, if anything, do about saving their env. and habitat.
Aaron Handzlik
Aaron`s Frog Farm
P.S. you can always stay on my couch. My home is always open to pople trying to save frogs.

Also
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post
Dear Jim (jehitch),
My previous posts in this thread provide links to many webpages and documents that prove the integrity of SAVE THE FROGS! Did you read the Articles of Incorporation that is easily downloadable at the top of the SAVE THE FROGS! Who We Are page? Do you think I would post a faked version of a legally binding document in a visible online location? The VA State Corporation Commission is the correct department for you to call, should you have questions. Have you looked through our Who We Are page yet? And do you think AmphibiaWeb/UCBerkeley would put us on their homepage if we were fake?

***************************
You ask: "Did you approach any existing organizations before forming your own, asking if they would be interested in the programs you are developing?"

No (though see point 4 below).

(1) I have a Ph.D. and am well acquainted with what is happening in the world of amphibian conservation, as I have attended and presented at national and international herpetological conferences for many years. I will act independently when necessary to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

(2) My philosophy is that you don't tell people what you are going to do, you show them what you've done.

(3) This is the USA and is a free society that was founded on the ideals that if you want to do something and you believe in it and you work hard, then you not only can do it, you should do it. I am an American citizen, and I need nobody's permission to start a nonprofit, just as you did not need FrogFarm's approval before you started your business.

(3) What organizations do you refer to? Amphibian Ark? There is virtually zero overlap in what we do. SAVE THE FROGS! does not captive breed. TreeWalkers? According to their website, half their mission is captive breeding, and half is building frog ponds. Again, no overlap. And honestly, I had never heard of them until I built my website's Relevant Links page, (which is the most thorough of its kind available). I am not familiar with any of their Directors (which of course is not to say they are not qualified), which I assume is because they must be from breeding backgrounds whereas I am from an academia background. Of course, all organizations attempt some degree of education.

(4) The Amphibian Conservation Action Plan (ACAP 2005) states that to successfully conserve amphibian populations it will require $400million each 5yr period (and that document forgot to mention or budget for education!). The IUCN/CI/ASG was charged with raising this money.

So 2 years after the ACAP was released (6 months prior to the incoroporation of SAVE THE FROGS!), I talked to those people and I asked 2 questions:

Q: How many people are working on raising this money?
A: 2

Q: How much money has been raised over the last 2 years?
A: $400,000

I have not told you all this but I am also a math teacher. $400,000/$400,000,000 = 0.1&#37; of the necessary money, and this with the backing of a major international body. How much more impetus to take matters into one’s own hands does one need than that?

****************************************
Jim, you say
"You are willing to volunteer your services for your organization, but point #2 suggests you would not be willing to do so for an existing organization. Why is this?"

I do plenty of volunteer work for non-frog issues. Why would you even expect that of me though when I clearly stated in previous posts in this thread that I have spent 5 months of my full-time effort working unpaid for SAVE THE FROGS!? I am not independently wealthy. Will you let me sleep on your couch Jim? I do like Michigan, and I can’t pay rent because I spend my time saving frogs even though I could be making $60,000 lecturing. (Sorry, I had to ask!)

Do you know that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread not a single one has contacted me offering their volunteer services? Who here actually cares about frogs? Someone must. How much though? [email protected]

*****************************
Jim, you say:
“Any time you create a new organization, you are creating an additional set of administrative tasks, as indicated when you stated…”

When our country’s forefathers founded this great nation in 1776 (they could have just let the King of England administer as there was already a British Commonwealth running our country), their decision to go solo created a lot of additional administrative tasks. The two that spring to my mind are that they had to spend precious time writing a Declaration of Independence and a Constitution with a Bill of Rights. Who here doubts that the time writing those documents was well spent?

***********************************
As for your suggestion that I like being in charge more than accomplishing goals:
(1) I do like working for myself. What’s wrong with that? I spent 21 years of my life in schools and universities, do I not deserve the opportunity to fulfill my dreams in whatever manner that entails? Do you want to work for FrogFarm? Petco? PetSmart? You don’t. I take the blame if it fails and I take the credit if it succeeds. I like challenges.

(2) SAVE THE FROGS! was not created so as to be an outlet to fulfill my egomaniacal urges if that’s what you are getting at. I have clearly detailed in many ways in this thread the necessity for what SAVE THE FROGS! does and intends to do.

(3) Would you rather have a leader or a follower in charge of saving the world? I view my job as saving the world. When the frogs die, we die.

**************************************************
As for you asking how many lawyers we’ve hired, etc., I have clearly stated in the above posts that:
(1) those things are our GOALS, and
(2) those goals require many millions of dollars, which we do not yet have.

How long will it take us to accomplish these goals?
Based on the fact that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread, not one has donated to SAVE THE FROGS! (at least not after having clicked through from Dendroboard), I’m guessing it may be a while. 2,000 threatened amphibian species out there. Pollution, pesticides, global warming, invasive species, infectious diseases spread by humans, over-harvesting for the pet and food trades, habitat destruction. An uneducated public. A society that does not value wilderness or wildlife. Third world countries that have no environmental standards and no means with which to implement them even if they existed.

Who reading this post cares enough about frogs to go right now to the savethefrogs.com donations page Donate to SAVE THE FROGS! | Nonprofit | Environmental Charityand donate $10 to SAVE THE FROGS! ?

Who can spare $20 for an educational Frogs of Australia poster that they can give to their kid’s school, or $25 for a 100% organic cotton SAVE THE FROGS! t-shirt featuring the world’s coolest frog, the Southern Orange-eyed Treefrog, to ensure that SAVE THE FROGS! has the funds to do all the things that need to be done to protect amphibians: educating our uninformed, uneducated public; fighting bad laws; fighting bad businesses and corrupt government agencies that sell our land to the highest bidder and let the pesticide companies poison our air and water; buying critical habitat; funding scientific research; providing scholarships; creating a herpetological community 10 times larger than it currently is?
Frog Posters | T-shirts | Bumper Stickers | Gifts

Who reading this post has ten minutes to go apply for a SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card featuring Dendrobates tinctorius, which on top of being the single most insanely awesome looking Visa card on Planet Earth, earns SAVE THE FROGS! a $50 bonus when activated and used for the first time? Can anyone here spare ten minutes? If so, please have a look at: SAVE THE FROGS! Platinum Visa Card No annual fee, no cost to you.

Who here can go to the Save The Frogs Day (April 28th, 2009) webpage and then tell their kid’s teachers about it? Did you know about the 1st Annual Frog Art Contest and 1st Annual Frog Poetry Contest? Who can print out the flyers on those pages and have their kids put them up at school? Did you know the winning entries will be used to publish a book of frog art and frog poetry, with all proceeds benefiting SAVE THE FROGS’ legally recognized nonprofit amphibian conservation goals? Plus there are cash prizes, funded from my own pocket. Each of those pages has a donations page. You could help fund the jackpot (currently $500 for each contest). The higher the jackpot, the faster word will propogate through the internet, the more people will learn about frog declines, and the higher the quality of the entries:
Save The Frogs Day | April 28, 2009
Frog Art Contest | Cash Prizes
Frog Poetry Contest | Cash Prizes

Does anybody here care enough about frogs to email five of their best friends to tell them to check out SAVE THE FROGS!? Did you know our How to Help page lists about 50 ways people can help? It’s far more thorough than any I’ve ever seen elsewhere: How to Help Save Frogs

Who here can call or write their local newspaper or radio or TV station telling them that amphibians are the most threatened group of animals on the planet, that nearly one third of the world’s 6,450 species are threatened with extinction, that 200 species have already disappeared in the last 30 years, and that SAVE THE FROGS! is able to provide them with more information in the form of a free interview? And that they should do this to help us promote Save The Frogs Day (April 28th) a global event in which hopefully thousands of schools worldwide will participate… [email protected]

Every adult reading this reply has gotten so far into this thread and into this message that two things are clear: (1) you care about frogs and (2) you’re not working three jobs in order to feed the kids. You do have either time or money. If the members of Dendroboard can’t contribute either their time or their money to SAVE THE FROGS!, then amphibian conservation surely is doomed.

Sincerely,
Kerry Kriger, Ph.D.
Founder & Executive Director of SAVE THE FROGS!
Kerry Kriger

“I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin. I'm going to hang up this phone, and then I'm going to show these people what you don't want them to see...A world without rules and controls, without borders or boundaries. A world where anything is possible. Where we go from there is a choice I leave to you.”
--Neo, The Matrix

Last edited by Roadrunner; 02-10-2009 at 01:07 PM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2009, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smashtoad View Post
Let's just say, for arguments sake, that all of these anthropomorphical organizations get their way, and all of the frogs and the land they live on is finally protected...what do you think their next step would be?

No exotic pets of any kind for anyone.
Well I don't want to take this discussion off topic but IF and that is a big if we somehow put a stop to destruction of habitat and loss of species, thus stabilizing a major element of the ecosystem that sustains us all then losing my ability to keep frogs (or any other exotic pets) would be a small price to pay. It really would as the alternative is a steady degradation of the planet to the point of marginal maybe even dubious habitability (at least by our species).

Then again I'm much more interested in the world my children and their offspring inherit than my own personal gratification.

Bill
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Aaron and others,

Look upon Dr. Kriger's comments as a call to action as opposed to personal attack. As I reflect upon this whole thread it has become too much about personalities and their viewpoints as opposed to substance.

Channel your energy into making a difference as I know many of you do. It's a good thing.

Bill
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2009, 01:26 PM
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This is constructive criticism. If he attacks people(saying no one has donated don`t you guys care about frogs) does not put him on anyones good side. A call to action would be better worded. I`m only trying to help him meld his organization. You know I`m only about saving amphibians and donate a lot, as do you. He seems to have a thick skin so maybe we should look at our posts as toughening his org. If he can win us over he`s hit a very tough and questioning group. If he sees that some things MAY not be worth focusing efforts on and focus` more towards what works this will only strengthen the fight.
I`m not accusing him of being bunk just gathering info to figure out how much(what percent) I`d want to donate. I`ve thought about saving animals day and nite for a long, long time. I merely putting his org in order of what I think are the best orgs to support.

I haven`t read very many other posts from members here so I can`t say if they were attacks.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2009, 01:29 PM
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I agree, I`d give it all up right this second if we could do that. I wouldn`t however give it up till I was sure they were safe elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmoisfive View Post
Well I don't want to take this discussion off topic but IF and that is a big if we somehow put a stop to destruction of habitat and loss of species, thus stabilizing a major element of the ecosystem that sustains us all then losing my ability to keep frogs (or any other exotic pets) would be a small price to pay. It really would as the alternative is a steady degradation of the planet to the point of marginal maybe even dubious habitability (at least by our species).

Then again I'm much more interested in the world my children and their offspring inherit than my own personal gratification.

Bill
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:38 PM
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Default Re: SAVE THE FROGS! Nonprofit Organization

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmk5g View Post

Do you know that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread not a single one has contacted me offering their volunteer services?
Based on the fact that of the 744 people who have thus far read this thread, not one has donated to SAVE THE FROGS! (at least not after having clicked through from Dendroboard)...
Perhaps this should tell you something? If you cannot convince the most passionate group of amphibian lovers to donate, you have very a serious problem.

All of the questions I have asked of you, I ask of every organization that solicits my donations; If your answers were compelling, you would have seen donations pouring in from the audience of this thread.

In my professional opinion (as a journalist who has spent 25 years analyzing the effectiveness of nonprofit organizations) you are not equipped to reach your rather high goals. I believe you would have a much better chance of reaching your goals if you concentrated on program administration, and left organizational administration to those who have already spent years figuring it out.

In other words, your best chance of success would be to ask a well-established organization if it would be willing to let you administer your program under its administrative umbrella.

Best of luck,
Jim
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