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Old 09-13-2017, 02:38 AM
Ed Ed is offline
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Default Illegal frogs

It seems like it is time again for a bright light to be shown on the illegal frog trade... Due to its size I have to split it into two sections.

Specifically http://www.amphibians.org/wp-content...28-Inf-341.pdf

Quote:
AC28 Inf. 34 – p. 1
AC28 Inf. 34
(English only / únicamente en inglés / seulement en anglais)
CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL TRADE IN ENDANGERED SPECIES
OF WILD FAUNA AND FLORA
___________________
Twenty-eighth meeting of the Animals Committee
Tel Aviv (Israel), 30 August-3 September 2015
Interpretation and implementation of the Convention
Exemptions and special trade provisions
Implementation of the Convention relating to captive-bred and ranched specimens (Decision 16.65)
FACT SHEET: ADELPHOBATES GALACTONOTUS (AMPHIBIA: ANURA: DENDROBATIDAE)
The attached information document has been submitted by the International Union for Conservation of Nature
(IUCN) in relation to agenda item 13.*

Summary:
Adelphobates galactonotus (CITES App. II) is endemic to the eastern part of the Amazon basin in Brazil south of the Rio Amazonas. The species is known for its vivid colors and the multiple color variants. Populations are
uniform in color and breed true, that is orange specimens only produce orange specimens, never blue (or any other color). Although live specimens of this species have never been exported legally from Brazil (where all wildlife is protected by law) it is a common species in captivity in Europe and the United States with all of these specimens arising from illegal exports from Brazil. The first illegal import to Germany took place in 1996 with
expanded international trade beginning in 1997 according to data from the CITES Trade Database.

The smuggling of this species out of Brazil still continues, threatening local populations. Indeed, after the publication of a paper on the colorpolymorphism of this species in 2012 in which several unknown color morphs (none of which known in captivity) were described, within three months large numbers of one of these morphs (a light blue one) were already available in Germany. In 2015, another recently discovered color morph was illegally imported in Germany.

*
The geographical designations employed in this document do not imply the expression of any opinion whatsoever on the part of the CITES Secretariat (or the United Nations Environment Programme) concerning the legal status of any country, territory, or area, or concerning the delimitation of its frontiers or boundaries. The responsibility for the contents of the document rests exclusively with its author.
AC28 Inf. 34 – p. 2
Instituto Brasileiro do Meio Ambiente e dos Recursos Naturais Renováveis (IBAMA) and the Brazilian Federal
Police have been advised of these continuing illegal activities (which also involve other CITES-listed species) and have been provided with the relevant data. These illegally imported specimens are easily recognizable based on their color with many illegally imported wild caught specimens entering the trade as “captive bred” A. galactonotus. Among breeders, keepers, and traders of A. galactonotus it is well known that all specimens in trade are descendants of illegally obtained stock or stem from recent illegal imports.

Taxonomy:according to the CITES standard nomenclature that follows Frost (2014), the name of this species is Adelphobates galactonotus (Steindachner 1864). However, the genus Adelphobates is only based on molecular characteristics. On the basis of most morphological characteristics the species is closer to members of the genus Dendrobates than to those of other Adelphobates. Several authors do not recognize the genus
Adelphobates (see summary in Frost, 2014) and several authors do not accept the placement of galactonotus in the genus Adelphobates and consider it a species of Dendrobates (see e.g. Hoogmoed and Avila-Pires
2012). The Brazilian government in its recent evaluation of the status of all Brazilian amphibians used the name Adelphobates galactonotus, as did Segalla et al (2014) in their checklist of Brazilian amphibians. Also CITES
uses this name. To avoid confusion the name Adelphobates galactonotus is used here.

Species:This is a medium-sized frog with a snout vent length of 3-4 cm. It is a colorful species with large color variation: black with large orange, red, yellow, light blue, white or brown areas on the back and limbs and some species are nearly uniformly colored, with the black restricted to small areas on belly and limbs. Some populations show a sprinkling of greenish to light blue spots on a black back and one population is yellow with vermiculate black spots on back and limbs. Specimens within each population have the same color pattern. No populations with several color patterns or populations transitional between two different color morphs are known. In captivity the
different morphs breed true, meaning their offspring have the same color pattern, although there may be slight variations in intensity and extent of the colored area. Overkamp (2009) noted that there is an ontogenetic
change of color from red at metamorphosis to reddish brown in older specimens and also that black spots on the back in juveniles tend to disappear in adults. Hoogmoed and Avila-Pires (2013) provided a detailed
description of the color polymorphism of this endemic Brazilian species, a map showing the distribution of the color morphs, and provided color pictures of most of the color variations known to exist. Overkamp (2009) and
Lötters et al. (2007) dealt with the species in captivity and described a limited number of color morphs. Recent genetic research showed that different haplotypes may have the same color. The mechanism responsible for the astonishing within-species color variation is not yet completely clear, but the most likely explanation is simple mutations causing the loss of carotenoids (responsible for yellow, orange and red colors) from the skin,
giving rise to blue morphs and spread of new characters through the populations following Mendelian laws, followed by fixation of colors in separate populations.

Distribution: This species is endemic to a part of Brazil from the Tapajos and Teles Pires rivers in the west to the Atlantic coast (São Luis, state of Maranhão) in the east and from the southern bank of the Amazon river and the Bay of Marajó to extreme northern Mato Grosso and northern Tocantins. Most of its distribution falls within the state of Pará (see map in Hoogmoed & Avila-Pires 2013). No pattern can be discovered in the distribution of the different color morphs throughout the species range, although in general orange colored populations seem to be mostly present in the north and east of the distribution area, with most variation in color of populations in the western part of the range. The species does not seem to be continuously distributed throughout its range. Apparently occurrence is patchy and populations are isolated, but there is no indication which environmental factors could be responsible for the isolation.

Habitat: A. galactonotus is an inhabitant of tropical lowland forest (terra firme forest), where it is present on the forest floor among leaf litter. It seems to have a preference for areas with stands of Brazil nut trees (Bertholletia excelsa), where it may deposit its larvae in empty Brazil nut pods. However, it also has been found in secondary forest surrounded by pasture, in the transition zone between Amazonian forest and Cerrado
vegetation, in recently cleared and burnt areas under Brazil nut trees, and even in a cassava plantation. The species seems to be tolerant to a certain level of disturbance, but it is not known whether it can endure adverse
conditions for extended periods (Hoogmoed and Avila-Pires 2013). Pfaffe and Pieper (1997) report that specimens are more numerous near tree falls.
AC28 Inf. 34 – p. 3 As in Dendrobates tinctorius, the extreme inter-populational phenotypic variation could be related to the apparent patchy distribution of suitable habitat for A. galactonotus throughout its range (cf. Noonan and Gaucher 2006).

Natural history: Pieper and Pieper (1997), who reported the first illegal import of A. galactonotus in Germany, report litters of 3-13 eggs. According to Overkamp (2009), in captivity the species lays 4-10 eggs in the leaf litter. When the larvae hatch after 14-18 days (Pieper and Pieper, 2000) the male carries them one (mostly) or two at the time, on his back to small water bodies including water filled Brazil nut pods, for further development. Metamorphosis takes place after about two months. Overkamp (2009) indicates that the number of eggs laid by wild caught specimens in the 1990s sometimes reached 20 suggesting that fertility in captivity is lower.

Conservation status:The IUCN Red List considers this species of Least Concern. During the recent (regional) evaluation of all Brazilian amphibians by a group of Brazilian herpetologists under the auspices of the Brazilian Government (Instituto Chico Mendes de Conservação da Biodiversidade (ICMBio)/ O Centro Nacional de Pesquisa eConservação de Répteis e Anfíbios (RAN)) this species also was considered of Least Concern because of its
large distribution area. However, during this evaluation the situation of different color morphs of this species with restricted distributions was not taken into account, as the Red List only considers species.

Trade: Theile (2000) pointed out the goals of CITES and how it works, and provided data on (official) trade in all Dendrobatids (37 species) in the period 1994-1999. That analysis revealed that the majority of specimens (of a
total of 69,498) went to the United States (67%), European Union (18%), Japan (7%), Canada (3%) other countries (5%). In the EU 3,959 specimens went to the Netherlands, 3,179 to Germany and 2,249 to Belgium.
Theile also pointed out that the trade in the period 1994-1999 had increased considerably (seven times) as compared to the period 1989-1993, when “only” 10,000 specimens were officially traded. Among the 37 species traded in the period 1994-1999, Theile (2000) mentioned Dendrobates (Adelphobates) galactonotus, a species endemic to Brazil. As with all wild animals in Brazil, A. galactonotus is protected by law and any (commercial) trade is unlawful. Like all other colorful Dendrobatids, Adelphobates galactonotus is listed in CITES Appendix II, which means the species could be traded with proper export documents. However, Brazil only provides such export documents for specimens for scientific study and not for commercial (pet trade) purposes. Consequently wild collected specimens of this species have been rarely exported. In the period 1993-1996 a total of 27 wild collected specimens have been legally exported (CITES Trade Database) to the Netherlands (18) and to Austria (9) for scientific studies. All these were bodies/specimens, meaning they were not live specimens, but preserved specimens. In 1998 one export of 13 live, wild caught specimens was
recorded as being exported from Canada to the USA for commercial (T) purposes. Only the importer (USA) recorded this transaction. There is no record of these individuals having been legally exported from Brazil.
Most other trade recorded in specimens of this species concerned trade in “captive bred” (C or F) specimens between non-range states. There is not a single record of the export of live specimens from Brazil to any
country for any purpose except for a transaction concerning 115 “captive bred” specimens from Brazil to the USA for scientific purposes. As there are no breeding operations are known in Brazil, the origin of these “captive-bred” specimens is unknown. Total reported exports in the period 1993-2013 were 1,988 with total reported imports of 1,695 during the same period.
It must be noted that all trade after 1997 is of specimens bred in captivity from breeding stock that was originally illegally exported from Brazil. The date of the illegal export of the breeding stock to Europe (most likely
Germany) is not exactly known, but probably occurred in 1996 (see below under Illegal Trade).

Table 1. Trade data Adelphobates galactonotus for 1993-2013 (from CITES Trade Database). Years and
numbers in bold indicate transactions concerning legal export of wild-caught specimens/bodies from Brazil to
the Netherlands and Austria for scientific purposes.
Year Export Import Year Export Import
1993 12 12 2004 61 161
1994 5 0 2005 117 197
1995 1 7 2006 36 28
AC28 Inf. 34 – p. 4
Year Export Import Year Export Import
1996 9 0 2007 14 2
1997 116 116 2008 28 12
1998 129 91 2009 45 169
1999 491 247 2010 48 129
2000 343 181 2011 76 40
2001 55 84 2012 142 46
2002 60 60 2013 43 27
2003 157 86 Total 1988 1695

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2017, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

Part 2, which should be the rest of the article.

Quote:
Illegal trade: Between 1987 and 1993 there was no reported trade in this species and neither was it present in terrariums of European hobbyists (Gorzula 1996).All trade in this species reported in the official CITES Trade Database since 1997 is illegal, because no breeding stock (live specimens) of A. galactonotus has ever been exported legally from Brazil. According to
CITES rules, all descendants of illegal breeding stock are also illegal.
Pistoni and Toledo (2010) report a 1999 confiscation at São Paulo’s Guarulhos international airport of 281 Dendrobates tinctorius and 279 D. cf. galactonotus, both species said to originate from the “Alto Trombetas in
Pará, Brazil”. D. tinctorius does occur in that region, but D. cf. galactonotus does not as it is limited to eastern Brazil south of the Amazon River (Hoogmoed and Avila-Pires 2012). The destination of these specimens was
Germany. This confiscation is not mentioned in the CITES Trade Database. The CITES Trade Database only reports one confiscation by the USA in 1999 of 11 specimens from Germany. Thus, there is evidence of attempts to illegally trade in this species and live specimens apparently had already
reached Germany before 1999, despite export controls in Brazil. Indeed, Pieper and Pieper (1997) reported the import (it is assumed to Germany) of 12 adult live specimens in 1996. No such import is documented in the
CITES Trade Database. It is likely that these 12 illegally imported specimens form the illegal breeding stock that gave rise to most A. galactonotus in captivity.Beginning in 1997 there was a regular trade from Germany to other countries in captive bred specimens (CITES Trade Database). Saurian Enterprises Inc. , a commercial enterprise specializing in the breeding of dart
frogs, clearly states on its website that all specimens in captivity are descendants of specimens illegally exported to Europe and then laundered (with legal European CITES documents) to the USA at the end of the
1990s. This is well known among Dendrobatid keepers, as is clear from several posts (referred to as A, B, C, D, and E) to the Dendroboard, an online website providing information and discussion forum about dart frogs, that
deal specifically with the light blue morph of A. galactonotus that was recently (2013) smuggled from the Caxiuanã area in Brazil to Germany. Some participants (primarily from the USA) in this discussion forum are
clearly concerned about the illegal exports. Others apparently are not concerned as they may believe that trade in specimens of A. galactonotus has been legalized. Under the USA’s Lacey Act, however, specimens of this
species in captivity remain illegal independent of their distance from the original, smuggled breeding stock. Numbers of captive bred A. galactonotus in terrariums in Germany and the Netherlands (and elsewhere in the
world) over the past 18 years have increased significantly and specimens were sold and exchanged freely (only with unofficial private declarations that the specimens came from captive breeding operations) between
terrarium keepers. Despite knowledge that all captive bred specimens in their countries were descendants of illegally imported specimens (Overkamp 2009), after a short period of confiscations, enforcement agencies in
these countries have refrained from taking legal action because specimens had become so widespread among terrarium keepers that any legal action would be a very large and costly operation. The EU does not have a regulation comparable to the USA’s Lacey Act that would have prevented the ongoing illegal trade in captive bred A. galactonotus that originated from illegally sourced breeding stock. As a result of this illegal trade, wild caught specimens that are illegally exported from Brazil can and do enter
international trade as “captive bred” and, consequently, can be laundered to become “legal.” There is considerable demand for this species. For example, within a few months of the publication of Hoogmoed and Avila-Pires (2012) reporting a new light blue color morph from a small area (Caxiuanã) in
northern Pará, the authors were informed by a European source that specimens of this new color morph had been located using information in their paper, collected, and smuggled out of Brazil for sale in Germany for 350-700€ per specimen. As proof, the authors received a picture of specimens at a trader´s establishment in which AC28 Inf. 34 – p. 5
at least 40 blue and one orange specimen can be discerned. On this same website pictures of the smuggled light blue morph from a Hungarian source are also posted.On April 30, 2013 IBAMA, the Brazilian institution responsible for enforcement of environmental law, was informed of this illegal act and provided with all information available about the smuggling process and the
persons involved. An investigation was initiated but ended after one year with no action taken and the investigator reassigned to other duties.
Information was received from local residents that in 2014 “someone” from outside the area of Caxiuanã tried to purchase more specimens of A. galactonotus from the local inhabitants of the Caxiuanã area, offering prices
of 100 Brazilian Reals (about Euro 30) per specimen. This is roughly equivalent to three days salary in the region. In August 2014, a new complaint concerning illegal collecting and export of Brazilian wildlife, including A. galactonotus, was lodged with the Federal Police. On April 21, 2015 information was received from a Dutch CITES enforcement officer of an import of a new A. galactonotus color morph (orange with brown back) into Europe (probably Germany). This color morph had been discovered in 2013 during licensed fieldwork by a doctoral student, but the discovery had not been published. Consequently, it is believed that illegal collectors stumbled on this new population by accident when trying to obtain more blue morphs, and then commercialized it by illegally exporting live specimens to Europe. It
is not known how many specimens of this color morph were traded, but on one photograph received, seven specimens are visible. This latest import may signal the continued interest of unscrupulous collectors and traders in locating and exporting these new color morphs and exporting in violation of Brazilian laws.
For more information, please contact:
ASG, IUCN SSC:
Dr. Marinus S. Hoogmoed at [email protected]
Dr. Ariadne Angulo at [email protected]
Defenders of Wildlife:
Alejandra Goyenechea at [email protected]
Animal Welfare Institute:
DJ Schubert at [email protected]
References:
Frost, Darrel R. 2014. Amphibian Species of the World: an Online Reference. Version 6.0 (Accessed March 22,
2015). Electronic Database accessible at Amphibian Species of the World.
American Museum of Natural History, New York, USA.
Gorzula, S.J., 1996. The trade in Dendrobatid frogs from 1987-1993. Herpetological Review 27(3): 116-123.
Hoogmoed, M.S., and T.C.S. Avila-Pires, 2013 [2012]. Inventory of color polymorphism in populations of
Dendrobates galactonotus (Anura: Dendrobatidae), a poison frog endemic to Brazil. Phyllomedusa
11(2): 95-115.
Lötters, S., K.-H. Jungfer, F.W. Henkel and W. Schmidt, 2007. Poison frogs. Biology, species & captive care: 1-
668. - Edition Chimaira, Frankfurt am Main.
Nijman, V., and C.R. Shepherd, 2010. The role of Asia in the global trade in CITES II-listed poison arrow frogs:
hopping from Kazakhstan to Lebanon to Thailand and beyond. Biodiversity and Conservation 19:
1963-1970.
Noonan, B.P. and P. Gaucher, 2006. Refugial isolation and secondary contact in the dyeing poison frog
Dendrobates tinctorius. Molecular Ecology 15: 4415-4425.
Overkamp, J., 2009. Adelphobates galactonotus. DN Magazine 21: 36-41.
Pfaffe, R. and B. Pieper, 1997. Auf der Suche nach Dendrobates galactonotus. Reptilia Nr. 3, February 1997,
2(1): 33-38.
Pieper, B. and Pieper, R. 1997. Pflege und Zucht des Gesprenkelten Baumsteigerfrosches Dendrobates
galactonotus. Reptilia Nr. 7 2 (5): 49-52.
AC28 Inf. 34 – p. 6
Pistoni, J. and L.F. Toledo, 2010. Amphibian Illegal Trade in Brazil: What Do We Know? - South American
Journal of Herpetology 5(1): 51-56.
Segalla, M.V., U. Caramaschi, C.A.G. Cruz, T. Grant, C.F.B. Haddad, J.A. Langone, P.C.A. Garcia, 2014.
Brazilian Amphibians: List of Species. Herpetologia Brasileira 3(2): 37-48.
Theile, S. 2000. Handel mit Pfeilgiftfröschen boomt – wie lange noch? DRACO Terraristik-Themenheft 3
Pfeilgiftfrösche: 89-91.
Websites:
AmphibiaWeb: AmphibiaWeb -- Search Results
Accessed on April 17, 2015.
CalPhotos: CalPhotos
Accessed on April 127, 2015.
CITES Trade Database: http://trade.cites.org/en/cites_trade/ Accessed 14 April 2015.
Dendroboard A: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...otus-blue.html
Accessed on May 4, 2015
Dendroboard B: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...ue-galacs.html
Accessed on May 4, 2015
Dendroboard C: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...ue-galacs.html
Accessed on May 4, 2015
Dendroboard D: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...e-galacts.html
Accessed on May 4, 2015
Dendroboard E: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ade...ermediate.html
Accessed on April 17, 2015.
IUCN Red List of threatened species: Adelphobates galactonotus. Accessed on
April17, 2015.
Lacey Act : http://www.fws.gov/international/law.../laceyact.html.
Accessed on May 5, 2015
Poison Frog: Adelphobates Galactonotus "Blue" - Members Images - PoisonFrog.
Accessed on April 17, 2015.
Saurian Enterprises Inc. Electronic Database available at:
Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

nice post ed.
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Old 09-13-2017, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

The part about these new frogs that is so confusing to me, is the insistence that the Dutch CITES paperwork somehow asserts their legality. This is not true at all. In fact, it is simply one of the steps in laundering these animals. The entire situation has been a textbook example of laundering.

The Dutch (and German) authorities have decided to consider all captive-bred specimens as legal, as it would be too difficult and costly to confiscate and care for all the animals. This is in violation of CITES, but the secretariat has let it be. As a result, smugglers simply need to get the animals to Germany or the Netherlands, breed them, and then pass them off as captive bred to get a permit for export.

The part worth noting is that this does not make the animals legal here. It just means the European authorities look the other way and do not fully enforce CITES. The Lacey Act in the US clearly provides the framework for these animals still being illegal, as their origins are illegal and the country of origin has declared them illegal. No Dutch CITES paperwork is going to change the position of the Lacey Act.

The "paperwork" from the Netherlands is simply a laundry receipt. The animals are illegal.

I know this was the way of the hobby in the old days, but we should be moving on from it... not celebrating it.
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Old 09-13-2017, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

Appreciate the post Ed, I think more people need to see this.
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Old 09-13-2017, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

I want to add a bit more information now that I have his permission to post it. I followed up with one of the authors of the CITES paper Ed provided.

This was his response:
Quote:
As to the export of blue A. galactonotus from the Nertherlands being "legal" because of the documentation, is a misunderstanding. Breeding stock of blue A. galactonotus was illegally exported from Brazil in early 2013 (I informed Brazilian authorities of this, but they were not able to solve the case, although they apparently made some inquiries), just after publicatin of an article by me and TCS Avila-Pires reporting on this blue morph. The specimens now announced on Facebook may indeed have been bred in the Netherlands (descendants of the 2013 illegally exported specimens), but because the original breeding stock of these blue specimens (and the stock for all other A. galactonotus) has been exported illegally from Brazil, the specimens now being discussed/offered for sale in the USA according to CITES rules are illegal. I know that the Dutch Cites authorities have decided (years ago) to consider all specimens bred in captivity (numerous specimens, which were very difficult (costly) to confiscate and take care of, thus just avoiding problems ) as "legal" (being fully aware of the real situation), thus violating CITES rules. The same is true for Germany. Thy accepted a "fait accompli", and the CITES Secretariat let it be.
I hope this information answers your question.

Best regards,

Dr. M.S. Hoogmoed

Museu Paraense Emilio Goeldi/COOZO

Belém, Pará

Brazil
In further communications, he went on to say this about the USFWS:
Quote:
...administratively they have made a mistake. They should have researched the history of captive bred specimens from Europe (eg. by reading my AC28 information document) to see that the Dutch export document actually should never have been issued for "captive bred" specimens..
I don't think it could be much clearer at this point- these frogs are not legal.

That being said, I really don't think the importer did this with entirely poor intentions and likely thought he was doing a good thing. I believe he simply did not understand the full situation and took the word of someone, in conjunction with the "paperwork", and assumed it was legitimate. Unfortunately, obtaining paperwork is not really the end of the line when doing due-diligence on things like this.
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

So, for those of us who do not use Facebook, has there been a recent offering of these frogs for sale in the US, thereby prompting this post?
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Old 09-13-2017, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodswalker View Post
So, for those of us who do not use Facebook, has there been a recent offering of these frogs for sale in the US, thereby prompting this post?
Yes and when people (Ed, myself, a few others) expressed skepticism about the legality it became a bit of a shouting match because some misinformed individuals would rather support the side that gets them the frogs they want instead of looking at the documentation Ed provided.

The crazy part about it all is how Ed literally provided the official CITES position on it and they still blew past it like it was nothing because they had this "paperwork" and "permission" and would not even begin to entertain the idea that their paperwork was possibly not legitimate. I have now validated with one of the authors that everything in that paper provided by Ed still applies, and it is still falling on deaf ears because people want to try to justify owning this frog.

It just makes me incredibly disappointed in this hobby... I understand that many frogs got here in the past because of this same process and a lot of taxonomic revisions/mix-ups that complicated things, and we should be beyond that now. These galactonotus were smuggled in the last few years and it did substantial harm on the wild population. Continuing to show that the hobby doesn't care about smuggled frogs once they are bred in captivity and laundered through the EU just sets this up to happen again and again.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

This also says that all Glacs are here illegally, so why do we only take a stand now and not make such a show for the red, orange and others?
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:32 PM
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That sounds tremendously frustrating. I appreciate that you and Ed have taken the time to present this in crystal clear terms here.
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Old 09-13-2017, 06:45 PM
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This also says that all Glacs are here illegally, so why do we only take a stand now and not make such a show for the red, orange and others?
Yes, all galactonotus are technically illegal.

The issue with this specific import is twofold:

First, they are being advertised as legal, which is not the case. They are simply the same status as all galactonotus in the hobby. At best- they are a "grey area" frog that technically is in violation of CITES and the Lacey Act and simply not enforced.

Second, because we have to eventually draw a line somewhere. Nobody is going to be able to crawl back in time and undo what was done before. Especially to a time when things were less clear from a taxonomic perspective and almost impossible to USFWS to enforce. Now we have the exact up-to-date taxonomy and the official CITES position stating they are illegal, and they were still smuggled, bred, and laundered. There isn't much of an excuse anymore.
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:28 PM
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So what is to be done with the extant captive population of the various morphs of A. galactonotus?

The issue of identifying and prosecuting smugglers is clear (though it appears the perpetrators may have evaded prosecution). But the EU government is not in a position to round-up all the captive specimens. Even if they were, this would presumably result in them being cared-for until the population eventually died-out since the government would not be in the business of breeding.

Should we look forward to these captive lines dying out as a result of stricter enforcement of their illegality?

All things being equal, I would call it a tragedy for these captive lines to die-out. Yet it is unclear how captive breeding can continue to support these lines if owning the frogs is illegal (there are only so many zoos that could or would sustain non-private populations under careful regulation).

Simply declaring the current captive frogs to be legal would, as they current EU regime shows, give potential cover for further illegal wild collection. Yet a captive source of this species is the only viable way to redirect desire for the animals away from wild collection.

Is the best of the possible bad solutions the one the EU has pursued: Declare the current captive population nominally legal while still honoring CITES and pursuing prosecution for past and future smugglers (and their employers)?
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Old 09-13-2017, 09:59 PM
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Is the best of the possible bad solutions the one the EU has pursued: Declare the current captive population nominally legal while still honoring CITES and pursuing prosecution for past and future smugglers (and their employers)?
As mentioned before, this just creates a bigger loophole for smuggled animals to be introduced to the market as legitimate. How would you determine which frogs were present in country when such legislation was passed, and which were introduced afterward?
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Old 09-13-2017, 11:49 PM
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So what is to be done with the extant captive population of the various morphs of A. galactonotus?
This question needs a more through review of the US populations, there are some who think they received some of this species before CITES listing (1987) but they were/are still illegal due to the Brazilian wildlife laws from 1967 prohibiting export and commerce in the animals.

Zoos and other institutions will have little interest in these populations as there is no ecosystem context and they are considered as a species to be of least concern by the IUCN.

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All things being equal, I would call it a tragedy for these captive lines to die-out. Yet it is unclear how captive breeding can continue to support these lines if owning the frogs is illegal
More of a tragedy that allows people to continue to smuggle in animals so they can sustain the lines that they are allowing to be screwed up by rampant inbreeding?? You do realize that this is pretty much an argument to rationalize that smuggling was okay to get these frogs into the hobby.

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Simply declaring the current captive frogs to be legal would, as they current EU regime shows, give potential cover for further illegal wild collection. Yet a captive source of this species is the only viable way to redirect desire for the animals away from wild collection.
Actually this argument isn't worth a whole lot from a conservation point of view as it requires market factors that are unrealistic. You would have to have a captive breeding population that meets market demand, but the problem with that is people get out of frogs when they become too common only to want them again when they become rare, raising demand for wild caught animals. Captive breeding by itself does not reduce demand for wild sourced animals. If that was the case, there wouldn't be a whole lot of demand for ranched ball pythons (where the US imported more than 40,000 ball pythons) in 2015-2016. So if we don't see this having a significant impact on demand in arguably the most commonly captive bred non-native snake, how can you make the claim for the frog?? Market and economic forces have not agreed with this claim. In addition your dancing around the argument of "conservation through captive breeding" which is a whole lot of bunk as you cannot have conservation without preserving the ecosystem and its pretty simple to demonstrate that captive breeding really isn't of any value.

Yes the whole captive breeding reducing demand argument irritates me as it is based on false premises.

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Old 09-13-2017, 11:52 PM
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This also says that all Glacs are here illegally, so why do we only take a stand now and not make such a show for the red, orange and others?
Because this is so clear cut of at the least an ethical violation that it can be dealt with at the root of the problem. If there are at most a couple of dozen individual frogs of that population, it is a lot easier to get ahead of it than waiting until there are hundreds of that population spread across lots of individuals.

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Old 09-14-2017, 02:09 AM
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Hey ed I was taking a gander through this and was wondering what other species are technically illegal to own in the US?
I remember a big uproar over vanzo's many years ago.
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

Not only would taking the EU approach provide cover by making it difficult to distinguish smuggled from legitimized frogs, it removes a major disincentive against smuggling. If smuggling is met with only a shrug and the eventual legitimization of smuggled lines, how many more people might decide that going through legal importation channels is no longer worth the effort?
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Old 09-14-2017, 02:34 AM
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The thing that really got me is the defense of this. Seems all someone had to do is cozy up to someone in a EU zoo or some how get someone in that position and it's on. You could launder damn near anything if the stance is if it's cb then it's legal. People can be blind in their justification of something clearly not on the level.
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Old 09-14-2017, 03:04 AM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

Seeing the people who are selling, and "pro" selling, it's no surprise whatsoever though.

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... It just makes me incredibly disappointed in this hobby... I understand that many frogs got here in the past because of this same process and a lot of taxonomic revisions/mix-ups that complicated things, and we should be beyond that now. These galactonotus were smuggled in the last few years and it did substantial harm on the wild population. Continuing to show that the hobby doesn't care about smuggled frogs once they are bred in captivity and laundered through the EU just sets this up to happen again and again.
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Old 09-14-2017, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

@Ed, @Dane, @Woodswalker,

The EU's decision is not a perfect (or even good) solution. The 2013 illegal collection seems to have entered the hobby under exactly that cover and with that encouragement.

Nonetheless, what is to be done with the current captive animals? Should we support confiscation of the extent specimens by US and EU authorities? Clearly the government cannot be expected to maintain them and, as Ed notes, zoos would be unlikely to be interested in the work of preserving a captive-sourced population. This route seems to end in the dying-out of the captive lines.

The loss of the captive lines is, however, a loss only to hobbyists who must forego adding these species to their collection. This is not a tragedy from a human perspective... but what of the frogs' ? The EU's solution has all the drawbacks already mentioned... but it seems like the only alternative to confiscation and (immediate or eventual) extirpation.

I am not trying to be a bleeding heart for the frogs, nor use sympathy for their fate as a moral justification for the status quo. But no one seems eager to suggest that the captive population should be eliminated outright. If not that, then what?

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Old 09-14-2017, 04:46 AM
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@Ed, @Dane, @Woodswalker,

The EU's decision is not a perfect (or even good) solution. The 2013 illegal collection seems to have entered the hobby under exactly that cover and with that encouragement.

Nonetheless, what is to be done with the current captive animals? Should we support confiscation of the extent specimens by US and EU authorities? Clearly the government cannot be expected to maintain them and, as Ed notes, zoos would be unlikely to be interested in the work of preserving a captive-sourced population. This route seems to end in the dying-out of the captive lines.

The loss of the captive lines is, however, a loss only to hobbyists who must forego adding these species to their collection. This is not a tragedy from a human perspective... but what of the frogs' ? The EU's solution has all the drawbacks already mentioned... but it seems like the only alternative to confiscation and (immediate or eventual) extirpation.

I am not trying to be a bleeding heart for the frogs, nor use sympathy for their fate as a moral justification for the status quo. But no one seems eager to suggest that the captive population should be eliminated outright. If not that, then what?
If elimination/confiscation of all of the newly imported blue galacs would keep them from ever coming in again (without Brazil's consent), I'd be cool with it. Why do we need another color variant of another species when so many of the types that come in legally get lost due to popularity cycles within the hobby?
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:22 AM
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@Dane,

I agree that one more morph is simply not necessary.

As for prevention of more smuggling: Clearly we can't know for sure that elimination of the current blue morphs would guarantee no further illegal collection. We'll have to be willing to dispose of the frogs first.
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Old 09-14-2017, 03:42 PM
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If elimination/confiscation of all of the newly imported blue galacs would keep them from ever coming in again (without Brazil's consent), I'd be cool with it. Why do we need another color variant of another species when so many of the types that come in legally get lost due to popularity cycles within the hobby?

Couldn't that same logic be applied to all new species that are coming in, especially all the pumillo that are coming in?
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Old 09-14-2017, 04:51 PM
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Couldn't that same logic be applied to all new species that are coming in, especially all the pumillo that are coming in?
No, their country of origin allows the collection/farming and export of the frogs. The galacts come from a country that allows NONE of their wildlife to be collected and exported. The only way to get these frogs is for some smuggler to fly down to Brazil, illegally collect them and then smuggle them out of the country. They then use a loophole in the laws of certain European countries that allows any offspring to be considered legal regardless of where their founding stock was stolen from. The fact is that we have all been very well aware of Brazil's stance on their frogs. It is very obvious that when a new morph of frog that has never been in private collections before pops up from a country we all know does not allow them to be exported that it has come from being illegally smuggled. It's pretty well documented as Ed has pointed out many times.
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Old 09-14-2017, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

I wasnt questioning the legality of the frogs, but the statement that "another species when so many of the types that come in legally get lost due to popularity cycles within the hobby?" That all the new frogs coming in are causing older types to be lost due to popularity cycles within the hobby.


And this maybe wy off based and possibly another thread, but what about the new blue foot leucs that have seem to only originate from European stock? one can easily make the assumption that frogs coming in from European stock are that way because they can not legally coming into the US first, and are funneled and smuggled in this way. I could be completely off based but the hobby here seems large enough that we would receive frogs first or at the same time as our European counterparts?
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:49 PM
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Hey ed I was taking a gander through this and was wondering what other species are technically illegal to own in the US?
I remember a big uproar over vanzo's many years ago.
With the vanzolinii, it looks like the EU population probably originated in the Cordillera El Sira region of Peru which would make it illegal as that is a protected reserve. Where there is some problem with clarity is the fact that it was named in 1982 which means that it was pre-CITES which makes it harder to document that it was illegally traded or it wasn't exported under another name prior to 1987. The big rub is of course that it looks to have be collected from a protected region.

When the first actually legal export came into the country, it effectively laundered the prior population (although some show diligence in documenting EU line) which due to the poor sex ratio in the first import is where the uproar was caused.

Mysteriosus is another one that is totally illegal in the US even though it is in the trade in some EU countries.

There are multiple threads that discuss the actual illegal trade including specific species of frogs (or populations) on this forum. The discussion pops up whenever someone is blatant about the frogs they are selling and then it quiets down until the next big blatant example shows up.

For a hobby that claims to care about conservation, the hobby has a really cruddy record of living up to that claim.

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Old 09-14-2017, 07:35 PM
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I wasnt questioning the legality of the frogs, but the statement that "another species when so many of the types that come in legally get lost due to popularity cycles within the hobby?" That all the new frogs coming in are causing older types to be lost due to popularity cycles within the hobby.
Consider this as a thought experiment to help give you an idea of the impact of new frogs on the overall population of frogs in the hobby.

Consider: 1: the number of frog populations already established in the hobby
2: The minimum number of founding frogs for a well managed population breeding program is 100 frogs (50 pairs) to keep a population genetically diverse for 100-200 years.
3: how people usually get all of their frogs for their enclosures (groups of froglets from the same breeder to save on costs)
4: That frogs whose price drops to less than $20/frog or become too common tend to stop being widely distributed as people divest from them. (Frogs that produce large clutches like Epidobates anthonyi/tricolor, or P. terribalis are particularly at risk from this issue).
5: Estimate how many people are in the hobby....

Now how do you think the continued addition of more novel groups affects the long-term viability on the established groups? How much do you think that this can drive the smuggling of establshed species to add "new blood" to populations already badly screwed up?
How about adding in the status boost for someone who gets the new hot frog?

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Old 09-14-2017, 07:37 PM
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Couldn't that same logic be applied to all new species that are coming in, especially all the pumillo that are coming in?
If you are referring to the popularity cycles, we already see this in the pumilio.. what happened to all of the cauchero, man creeks, El Dorado, etc that were brought in during the first few years of the imports?

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Old 09-14-2017, 08:02 PM
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@Ed, @Dane, @Woodswalker,

Nonetheless, what is to be done with the current captive animals? Should we support confiscation of the extent specimens by US and EU authorities? Clearly the government cannot be expected to maintain them and, as Ed notes, zoos would be unlikely to be interested in the work of preserving a captive-sourced population. This route seems to end in the dying-out of the captive lines.
You do realize that your arguing that it is better ethically to let them stay in the hands of the hobbyists since your implying that is is a problem to let the lines be removed from the hobby through one mechanism or another....

Consider the impact of a heavy handed approach to the blue galactanotus in the US, what would the effect be on the attitude towards illegal frogs if the government did come in, confiscate them (and any other clearly illegal frogs), and prosecuted those with the frogs to the extent allowed by the Lacey Act?

Currently, the attitude towards having these and other clearly illegal animals is that is is low risk on getting prosecuted once they are in country therefore it is okay to smuggle them into the US (particularly with the argument that captive breeding is going to reduce demand (which has been established to be bull*).

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The loss of the captive lines is, however a loss only to hobbyists who must forego adding these species to their collection. This is not a tragedy from a human perspective... but what of the frogs' ? The EU's solution has all the drawbacks already mentioned... but it seems like the only alternative to confiscation and (immediate or eventual) extirpation.
Actually this incorrect, it is not just a loss for the hobby, it is a loss for the ecosystem, a loss for the locals and a loss of revenue for the Brazilian government. Your overly simplifying the chain. Your also ignoring the fact that for the genetics of the wild population, you just shifted the gene frequencies by pulling out what could be a significant portion of the population. So letting those frogs stay in the hobby enabling the captive population to be further augmented by smuggled animals that can be easily laundered is worth the damage to the wild populations? (Yes I am be hyperbolic here but your totally ignoring huge factors to make the case for the continued presence of the frogs in the hobby).
It is a well established conservation model that if a sustainable use market can be made from local products, there is great desire to keep the ecosystem as intact as possible to enable that continued trade.

Now one of the main reasons that Brazil is so draconian about the frogs is because they took the less of epibatidine to heart when the drug companies refused to share any profits if it ever reached market...

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I am not trying to be a bleeding heart for the frogs, nor use sympathy for their fate as a moral justification for the status quo. But no one seems eager to suggest that the captive population should be eliminated outright. If not that, then what?
Why didn't you just lead with this statement and skip all of the justifications on why the hobby should be allowed to keep the animals?

The problem is that allowing the hobby to keep the illegal frogs rewards the hobby, and does not address any of the problems involved in the smuggling from the beginning.

If the frogs can be shown to be pathogen negative how about repatriating them to Brazil for use in Brazilian Zoos and displays??

If you want to encourage conservation then some form of sustainable use of the established ecosystem is generally going to give you optimal results for sustaining wild populations. For a simplified explanation see http://indiaenvironmentportal.org.in...ommunities.pdf

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Old 09-14-2017, 09:36 PM
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@Ed,

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You do realize that your arguing that it is better ethically to let them stay in the hands of the hobbyists since your implying that is is a problem to let the lines be removed from the hobby through one mechanism or another....
I don't think it is ethically better to let them stay - and acknowledged the problem clemency creates for encouraging and giving-cover to further smuggling. But I don't see how, practically speaking, your suggested "heavy handed" approach results in anything more than the captive lines dying out.

Even you seemed unprepared to contemplate the death of the confiscated frogs - instead suggesting they could be repatriated for use in "Brazilian zoos and displays." Out of all the conservation and economic challenges Brazil faces - how likely is a properly funded focus on this one morph/species?

Were there a sustainable program in Brazil that could maintain the captive lines repatriated there that would be the best possible solution. But if that program does not exist, then "heavy handed" enforcement of the Lacey Act and CITES would lead to the destruction of the confiscated animals. I do view that as a tragedy - even if it is a minor one.

But the world is not short of tragedies - and maybe cold, hard enforcement and confiscation is the right way to address the bigger tragedy of illegal trade destroying the wild populations of these animals. To go that course, however means being prepared to see the captive animals killed.

Until we are comfortable with that - or there are viable alternative to it such as the repatriation you suggested, the status quo will persist.

Finally, I think you go too far in claiming that captive breeding does not reduce pressure on wild populations. Your argument seems to be that because captive-bred animals don't eliminate wild collection they do not reduce wild collection at all. Yet every captive bred frog available in the US reduces the demand for frogs of that type from all sources. You have noted in the past the boom/bust cycle of rare/popular species. The decrease in cost of morphs as they become common has the direct effect of making wild collection and illegal importation less profitable and hence less likely. This benefit may pale in comparison to the encouragement and cover it can also give to illegal wild collection - but I don't think it's accurate to say there is no benefit.

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Old 09-14-2017, 10:02 PM
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Finally, I think you go too far in claiming that captive breeding does not reduce pressure on wild populations. Your argument seems to be that because captive-bred animals don't eliminate wild collection they do not reduce wild collection at all. Yet every captive bred frog available in the US reduces the demand for frogs of that type from all sources. You have noted in the past the boom/bust cycle of rare/popular species. The decrease in cost of morphs as they become common has the direct effect of making wild collection and illegal importation less profitable and hence less likely. This benefit may pale in comparison to the encouragement and cover it can also give to illegal wild collection - but I don't think it's accurate to say there is no benefit.
Ah, yes because the demand for ball pythons from the "ranches" has decreased due to reduced demand....

Or how its worked for green tree pythons Lyons, Jessica A., and Daniel JD Natusch. "Wildlife laundering through breeding farms: illegal harvest, population declines and a means of regulating the trade of green pythons (Morelia viridis) from Indonesia." Biological Conservation 144.12 (2011): 3073-3081.

How about an economic analysis that goes through to show that unless a lot of specific factors are met, all you do is increase demand for wild caught animals (consider the value the hobby puts on frogs that are close to the wild populations...

Damania, Richard, and Erwin H. Bulte. "The economics of wildlife farming and endangered species conservation." Ecological economics 62.3 (2007): 461-472.

How about this analysis showing captive breeding can increase demand??? Drury, Rebecca. "Reducing urban demand for wild animals in Vietnam: examining the potential of wildlife farming as a conservation tool." Conservation Letters 2.6 (2009): 263-270.

There is a large and abundant body of literature on the whole captive breeding reduces demand that shows it to be not the things you are attempting to claim. Your continually overlooking the argument that okay one person got a cb frog and that should be one less taken from the wild but if that person generates more people who want that frog, you've now doubled, tripled, or much higher demand for that frog. In this day and age of the internet and sites like Facebook, you could increase demand a hundred fold or more since you now have a global audience of demand... Your totally over simplifying the argument in favor of allowing he hobby to keep them..


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Old 09-14-2017, 10:49 PM
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Ah, yes because the demand for ball pythons from the "ranches" has decreased due to reduced demand....

Or how its worked for green tree pythons Lyons, Jessica A., and Daniel JD Natusch. "Wildlife laundering through breeding farms: illegal harvest, population declines and a means of regulating the trade of green pythons (Morelia viridis) from Indonesia." Biological Conservation 144.12 (2011): 3073-3081.

There is a large and abundant body of literature on the whole captive breeding reduces demand that shows it to be not the things you are attempting to claim. Your continually overlooking the argument that okay one person got a cb frog and that should be one less taken from the wild but if that person generates more people who want that frog, you've now doubled, tripled, or much higher demand for that frog. In this day and age of the internet and sites like Facebook, you could increase demand a hundred fold or more since you now have a global audience of demand... Your totally over simplifying the argument in favor of allowing he hobby to keep them...
@Ed,

I know you aren't one to shy away from a hard position, but your increasingly extreme argument against any benefit from captive breeding now leaves zoos and, indeed, any depiction of desirable frogs as a threat to conservation because it "generates more people who want that frog."

It is too true that a nice picture posted on FaceBook can indeed ignite enormous, unsustainable demand for a rare species. The more sources that can meet this demand, however, the less any one source will need to be exploited. We can argue whether the desire itself to obtain these specimens is suspect and we would likely agree that not meeting this demand is no tragedy - but the fact that greater supply reduces pressure on all sources is basic economics. The fact that breeding programs (such as for boas) can be used as a cover for fraud seems a better reason for stamping-out said fraud than for eliminating the breeding programs unless the reeding itself is a fraud. This is certainly an issue in the aquarium trade where legitimate breeding has never been developed for many species despite anecdotes to the contrary.

You also seem convinced I want to maintain these frogs in the trade. I don't. I am arguing that the motivation for the EU's inconsistent regulatory system may be an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to balance real harms and real benefits - rather than simply a case of bad actors and bad faith.

I agree that the optimal solution to this problem is for 1)Smuggling to be stamped-out and 2)Brazil to develop a way to protect and to sustainably exploit their natural resources. Hopefully this would include a captive breeding and sale program with proceeds funding conservation efforts.
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Old 09-14-2017, 11:46 PM
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Because this is so clear cut of at the least an ethical violation that it can be dealt with at the root of the problem. If there are at most a couple of dozen individual frogs of that population, it is a lot easier to get ahead of it than waiting until there are hundreds of that population spread across lots of individuals.

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If we had dealt with all the other species coming from Brazil the same way we are trying to deal with the blue galacts, the hobby would have a lot less "gray areas" frogs. Brazilian law is black and white - NO species are legally exported to hobbyists (A. castaneoticus, A. galactonotus, D. tinctorius “Lorenzo,” etc., etc., etc.).
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Old 09-15-2017, 02:57 PM
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So reading through the posts I do not see one item. What are the powers that be in the US doing or going to do about it. Are they accepting this European Paperwork? So what is the US doing? What is the hobby going to do in regards? I see people on a soap box preaching about them being illegal. What is being done? Looks like they are being distributed and another 'illegal' frog in the hobby.
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Old 09-15-2017, 04:56 PM
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What CAN be done regarding unscrupulous people?

We are doing our part by discussing and clarifying the laws to anyone legitimately still unsure about the frogs' legality (thanks Ed!).

We, moderators, will not allow the sale of known illegal frogs in our marketplace. We will ban proven smugglers (we have in the past) and we can also report those people to authorities.

Other than that, it is up to each individual to use their moral compass and act accordingly. We do not have access to your private messages, either here or on Facebook, so people who want to be smugglers will be smugglers and people who want to buy contraband will buy contraband.
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Old 09-15-2017, 07:47 PM
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As a friend of mine said to me yesterday ... " ... glad xxxx outed himself for dealing with xxxx. Now I know one more person to not EVER deal with."

That's exactly how I feel about it as well. Buy frogs from a known smuggler and/or scammer, and I'll never buy frogs from you.

s
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Old 09-15-2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by evolvstll77 View Post
So reading through the posts I do not see one item. What are the powers that be in the US doing or going to do about it. Are they accepting this European Paperwork? So what is the US doing? What is the hobby going to do in regards? I see people on a soap box preaching about them being illegal. What is being done? Looks like they are being distributed and another 'illegal' frog in the hobby.
Here is the contact information so you can ask them yourself. https://www.fws.gov/duspit/contactus.htm

It is pretty easy to find USFW's contact information as it is available on the web as well as facebook. You can use the number from that site and call them if you don't want to wait for your answer.

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Old 09-15-2017, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Illegal frogs

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What CAN be done regarding unscrupulous people?

We are doing our part by discussing and clarifying the laws to anyone legitimately still unsure about the frogs' legality (thanks Ed!).

We, moderators, will not allow the sale of known illegal frogs in our marketplace. We will ban proven smugglers (we have in the past) and we can also report those people to authorities.

Other than that, it is up to each individual to use their moral compass and act accordingly. We do not have access to your private messages, either here or on Facebook, so people who want to be smugglers will be smugglers and people who want to buy contraband will buy contraband.
I would question the statement of will not allow the sale of known illegal frogs, as if you search the marketplace you can find sales for glacs, and "Lorenzo" which you previously stated are from Brazil and illegal frogs. Also by the looks of for sale adds Dendroboard doesnt seem the place to sell frogs any more, it looks like most have moved to FB.

I understand your motivation as you can only control what you can control, but you need to be consistent, will you not allow the sell of Blue glacs on here or all glacs?
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Old 09-15-2017, 10:09 PM
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@Ed,

I know you aren't one to shy away from a hard position, but your increasingly extreme argument against any benefit from captive breeding now leaves zoos and, indeed, any depiction of desirable frogs as a threat to conservation because it "generates more people who want that frog."
Your deflecting. Your attempting to equate your claim that each captive bred (smuggled) animal reduces demand which in multiple studies economic and otherwise show to be a false premise. As Zoos (at least in the US are not in the commercial market (particularly with smuggled animals)) your attempt to deflect this into an argument that lets people justify keeping the illegal frogs isn't valid (again).

Nice attempt with the ad hominem though... I'm being aggressive at putting down the BS that isn't supported by science..not captive breeding so nice try to insinuate that I'm against people keeping animals. This is of course another attempt to deflect from the issue of attempting to justify over and over again, smuggled animals. I'm for keeping legal animals.... which is counter to your arguments. so far....

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Originally Posted by kimcmich View Post
It is too true that a nice picture posted on FaceBook can indeed ignite enormous, unsustainable demand for a rare species. The more sources that can meet this demand, however, the less any one source will need to be exploited.
Bunk, pure and simple, 100% horse bunk. You might want to educate yourself on the issue a little more before making that claim. The demand only decreases when the market is saturated. Until that point there is demand for continued wild animals (and if there is a perception of bad genetics it again drives further illegal collection). This is pretty simple economics with this regard so attempting the semantic argument really doesn't work.

Hall, Richard J., E. J. Milner‐Gulland, and F. Courchamp. "Endangering the endangered: the effects of perceived rarity on species exploitation." Conservation Letters 1.2 (2008): 75-81.

Courchamp, Franck, et al. "Rarity value and species extinction: the anthropogenic Allee effect." PLoS biology 4.12 (2006): e415.

And long standing on the market model Veblen, T. (1899). The theory of the leisure class. The New American Library, New York.

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Originally Posted by kimcmich View Post
but the fact that greater supply reduces pressure on all sources is basic economics. The fact that breeding programs (such as for boas) can be used as a cover for fraud seems a better reason for stamping-out said fraud than for eliminating the breeding programs unless the reeding itself is a fraud. This is certainly an issue in the aquarium trade where legitimate breeding has never been developed for many species despite anecdotes to the contrary.
Again, the simple economic model does not apply and your greatly over simplifying the issue... your ignoring the value put on the goods sometimes called the "snob" value as well as allee effects...

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Originally Posted by kimcmich View Post
You also seem convinced I want to maintain these frogs in the trade. I don't. I am arguing that the motivation for the EU's inconsistent regulatory system may be an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to balance real harms and real benefits - rather than simply a case of bad actors and bad faith.
Your argument doesn't equate to this in any way... all of your arguments are predicated in the frogs staying in the hobby. The decision by Germany and the Netherlands was (based on at least one communication) done as a cost saving effort as they would be too difficult to regulate so the smugglers have a free pass in those countries.

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Old 09-15-2017, 10:12 PM
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I would question the statement of will not allow the sale of known illegal frogs, as if you search the marketplace you can find sales for glacs, and "Lorenzo" which you previously stated are from Brazil and illegal frogs. Also by the looks of for sale adds Dendroboard doesnt seem the place to sell frogs any more, it looks like most have moved to FB.

I understand your motivation as you can only control what you can control, but you need to be consistent, will you not allow the sell of Blue glacs on here or all glacs?
The documentation on "all galactanotus" and that Germany and the Netherlands will launder them into the trade is relatively new to the overall hobby... so looking at it historically one the site the best angle.

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