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Old 08-05-2017, 04:16 PM
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Default Ranitomeya Boldness

We are planning on adding a few more thumbnail groups to our collection. Currently, the only thumbnails we have are a group of bajas. Can anyone help offer input about the boldness of a few different types we are considering? Boldness will be a big factor in our final decision. Below is a list of possible candidates, including our bajas. Can anyone attempt to rank these in order of boldness, including bajas as my known reference?! Thanks in advance! - Craig

Bajas
Iquitos
Benedictas
Variabilis (Highland)
Varadero - Imitator

Thanks!!!
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Old 08-05-2017, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

I have Iquitos and Variabilis. My variabilis are very bold, while my Iquitos are a little more skittish, but they have gotten more bold with time. I have read that Varadero are quite bold as well and that Benedictas can be rather shy. I could be wrong though. Best of luck.
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Old 08-05-2017, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

My Varaderos are all pretty bold for thumbnails, but I have one who is terribilis-level bold. His tank is in the living room, and he hangs out on the front glass all day, begging for food. I can open the door and pour the flies right next to him and he won't flinch.
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Old 08-05-2017, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

Thanks for the info. The two tanks I plan on building will be in the living room, so people traffic will be a constant!
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Old 08-05-2017, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

I keep some highland variabilis in a 12X12X18 ExoTerra right next to the table at which I tutor students. The frogs are very bold and not at all skittish. They do tend to call throughout the daylight hours, but they do have a pleasant call.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

Although there is some variability in boldness between Ranitomeya species, I think that their enclosure dictates how often you'll see them much more than any innate behavioral differences. I find that frogs kept in a mature, well-planted tank with plenty of hiding places are generally "bolder" than frogs kept in younger tanks, or tanks with fewer places to hide. It may seem counterintuitive, but I see my frogs out and engaging in natural behaviors much more often in tanks where they can easily hide; the ready cover seems to make them more comfortable to go about exploring and calling and courting. Frogs kept in a viv with fewer hiding places are more likely to spend their time in those hiding places, away from your sight, because they are less comfortable of being able to escape if needed should they come out to explore, I think.

Benedicta have a reputation for being shy, but in my benedicta viv, which is well planted, I often see all five frogs in the group out at the same time, behaving very naturally, and I can even go right up to the glass. They dive for cover when I open the tank -- and man, are they fast! -- but are otherwise mostly out and about. My vanzolinii -- maybe my favorite thumbnail species -- are bold, pretty, and very productive in their mature tank, raising several new babies every month. The boldest thumbs I ever had were a pair of Chazuta imitators, which would actually come running to the front of their viv when I opened it, expecting food. They even jumped right up onto the fly cup a couple times, or onto my hand to get at flies or to a higher perch. Probably the shyest Ranitomeya I've kept are R. uakarii, but even they make themselves visible regularly in an appropriately designed tank.

So: lots of leaf litter, plenty of branches and plants to climb on, pieces of decor for hiding and to form visual barriers and perching areas, a mature terrascaping, and you'll likely be happy with almost any readily available species like those you've named. Give them time to settle in before disturbing them too much, and you will likely be fine with most of them.
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Old 08-05-2017, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

I personally don't keep thumbs, but ive seen several imitators every bit as bold my tincs/terribilis/leucs. The few variabilis ive seen have been bold as well. The imitators have made me think about setting a tank up for some though.
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Old 08-05-2017, 10:01 PM
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Guess I should add that I'm converting yet another 90 gallon aquarium to hopefully house a group of 5-6 thumbs. The plan is for a lot of broms but to leave room for some orchids and more delicate plants that my larger frogs seem to trample.
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Old 08-06-2017, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

For the tank you describe, if you enjoy the trilling, more-musical-cricket-like call of the imitator group, I don't think you would go wrong with any imitator morph you like, or with a group of jaunty polka-dotted vanzolinii. If the loudness of the imitator call might be an issue (I like it, but I've known people who get annoyed if their frogs are singing in the living room while they're trying to watch TV or something), then, working from your list, maybe a group of highland variabilis, benedicta, or other frogs with a similarly quiet-buzzing call will be best. You can often find videos of the various frogs calling on YouTube, if you don't know what they sound like.

My brother lived with me for a while as he was looking for housing, and the louder vanzolinii/imitator calls in the living room drove him nuts when he was trying to watch TV. (Too bad, buddy! My house, my rules...) The frogs will call even when lights are out and just the TV is on, so don't count on trying to fool them! So if you have a similarly noise-sensitive family member, it's something to consider. If noise is not an issue, then I think you can go with any of the frogs you mentioned and be happy as long as you provide them with a proper habitat.
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Old 08-06-2017, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

No worries about the noise. My bajas and leucs are already in the room, and they are quiet compared to the local green tree frogs the kids use to keep.

Vanzos would def be on my list, but the kiddos think their colors are too similar to the bajas....!!!!
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

Adding a bit more to my original question. Any input on the Fantastica group? Are any of these varieties bold at all? My family is growing more interested in these guys, and I have to admit, they are spectacular when it comes to looks. I know they are typically considered more advanced, but I think we are up to it. Are any of these guys bold enough to consider for a "family" frog? Thanks!
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:29 AM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

All things being equal, I would put fantastica in the "not bold" category. They are very alert, and quick to hide. Somewhere on the board here there's even a question from one member to another about the boldness of the relatively new reticulated form, and the response was something like, "Typical fantastica, not very bold at all!" I've kept several fantastica morphs, and would put them among the shyer, quick-to-hide species. Again, a good enclosure helps, but mine generally fled as soon as I entered the room; took some patience to wait for them to come back out. The Understory Enterprises website describes fantastica boldness thus: "Alert frogs, fantastica are unhesitant to flee into the leaf litter of the forest floor upon or even prior to detection." And nobody knows fantastica better than UE, whose founder is the discoverer of several of the morphs we now have in the hobby!

For a family-room frog, I think you are better off with just about any imitator (varadero imitators look pretty close to the varadero fantastica they mimic, but are much bolder!), or with a variabilis morph, vanzolinii, or flavovittata, all of which I've found relatively bold. You can generally count on seeing these guys out most of the time. Fantastica are more likely to be a flash of color disappearing into the leaf litter. They are lovely frogs, though, for sure!

If a friend asked me to build them a tank like you describe, and said I could spend all the money I wanted and use any frog species, I'd set them up with an imitator morph. They are reliably bold, breed well, display their natural behaviors readily even in busy spaces. They come in so many varieties that there is bound to be one that pleases.
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Old 08-16-2017, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

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Originally Posted by herbivrus View Post
All things being equal, I would put fantastica in the "not bold" category. They are very alert, and quick to hide. Somewhere on the board here there's even a question from one member to another about the boldness of the relatively new reticulated form, and the response was something like, "Typical fantastica, not very bold at all!" I've kept several fantastica morphs, and would put them among the shyer, quick-to-hide species. Again, a good enclosure helps, but mine generally fled as soon as I entered the room; took some patience to wait for them to come back out. The Understory Enterprises website describes fantastica boldness thus: "Alert frogs, fantastica are unhesitant to flee into the leaf litter of the forest floor upon or even prior to detection." And nobody knows fantastica better than UE, whose founder is the discoverer of several of the morphs we now have in the hobby!

For a family-room frog, I think you are better off with just about any imitator (varadero imitators look pretty close to the varadero fantastica they mimic, but are much bolder!), or with a variabilis morph, vanzolinii, or flavovittata, all of which I've found relatively bold. You can generally count on seeing these guys out most of the time. Fantastica are more likely to be a flash of color disappearing into the leaf litter. They are lovely frogs, though, for sure!

If a friend asked me to build them a tank like you describe, and said I could spend all the money I wanted and use any frog species, I'd set them up with an imitator morph. They are reliably bold, breed well, display their natural behaviors readily even in busy spaces. They come in so many varieties that there is bound to be one that pleases.
Perfect response! Thank you for the info! Fants shall be crossed off of the list!
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:45 AM
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I have pairs of Ranitomeya fantastica Caynarachi, Lowland, and Monte Cristo. The Caynarachi male is always out! He doesn't flinch when I open the door for anything. The Monte Cristo pair are exactly the same way. They are eagerly waiting food at all times! And I see the lowlands every single day. They may not be out constantly out, but I do see them. My benedicta are seen probably once per week. My variabilis are always visible. My bajas make everyone else start chirping. Good luck with your decision! This is an addicting hobby! Haha!
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

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Originally Posted by herbivrus View Post
All things being equal, I would put fantastica in the "not bold" category. They are very alert, and quick to hide. Somewhere on the board here there's even a question from one member to another about the boldness of the relatively new reticulated form, and the response was something like, "Typical fantastica, not very bold at all!" I've kept several fantastica morphs, and would put them among the shyer, quick-to-hide species. Again, a good enclosure helps, but mine generally fled as soon as I entered the room; took some patience to wait for them to come back out. The Understory Enterprises website describes fantastica boldness thus: "Alert frogs, fantastica are unhesitant to flee into the leaf litter of the forest floor upon or even prior to detection." And nobody knows fantastica better than UE, whose founder is the discoverer of several of the morphs we now have in the hobby!

For a family-room frog, I think you are better off with just about any imitator (varadero imitators look pretty close to the varadero fantastica they mimic, but are much bolder!), or with a variabilis morph, vanzolinii, or flavovittata, all of which I've found relatively bold. You can generally count on seeing these guys out most of the time. Fantastica are more likely to be a flash of color disappearing into the leaf litter. They are lovely frogs, though, for sure!

If a friend asked me to build them a tank like you describe, and said I could spend all the money I wanted and use any frog species, I'd set them up with an imitator morph. They are reliably bold, breed well, display their natural behaviors readily even in busy spaces. They come in so many varieties that there is bound to be one that pleases.
I'd say this is a pretty solid answer regarding fantastica but there are always exceptions. I keep a 2.1 trio of reticulated fantastica and they are quite bold. I can even open the doors and stick my iphone right up to them! My other fantastica are however quite shy but I've also had imitators that are super shy. Sometimes you get lucky!

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Old 08-23-2017, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

So many variables, but as a generality, imitators have always been the boldest thumbs in my frog room. My banded imitators shattered that generality, as they were quite shy. I've talked to a couple other thumb keepers who also found the bandeds to be shyer. Fantistica and Sirensis would be at the bottom of my list for boldness. Vents wouldn't be much higher.

Your list, in my thoughts on order.
Varadero - Imitator
Baja
Variabilis (Highland)
Benedictas -- assuming you have both sexes present, and have a well built, heavily planted viv. Leaf litter everywhere. They want to be able to find cover within about an inch, from anywhere in the viv. Once they know the viv better than you do, and know they can always take one hop to safety, they'll become bolder. Broms, leaf litter, broad leafed plants...things like those for cover.
Finally, Iquitos. I cannot freaking believe how shy my group of Iquitos vents was! I've built a thumbnail tank or two in my day, and I'm told I do a decent job, but I have never discovered a way to make vents, especially Iquitos, bold. The one thing they do have going for them, is that they are incredibly social. The will can breed to insane populations in a small viv, if enough resources are present. I recall an experiment that Ed was privy to. A small group was kept in a 5 gallon vivarium for quite some time. It was well set up, and monitored by very experienced people...don't try this at home! Upon breakdown, over 20 healthy frogs were removed.
Again, don't try that in a home vivarium.

Be careful grouping imitators. If you aren't careful, when breeding behavior starts, frogs can start disappearing. They do best as a pair per viv, unless you are very careful with tank design.
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

Pumilo,

Thanks for the response! So far the family that matters (wife and kids) are sounding fairly set on a group of benedictas (despite their shy tendencies), although highland variabilis and arena blancas are still in the mix.

I posted a picture of the tank. We have the broms and leaf litter covered. Oak and magnolia leaves can be collected at a moments notice. Despite the heat here (south Georgia) we were able to get some broms shipped as well. We are hoping the various brom sizes will help keep a group happy (and help create some shade). The biggest broms are already mature at around 12" diameter. A few on the background should grow to around 7x10", but several shown are already near max size. It will be a month or more before we can get shipping temperatures cool enough to finish off the tank with a final plant order from Glass Box. We're hoping to get some blooms in the tank via few orchids and sinningias, but our goal is the create some more shade via larger leafed plants as well. The evo quad we put on the tank is definitely bright (it's on a dim setting in the pic). It actually makes our high $ Kessil pendants look somewhat dim, although they produce a lot less heat.

Our goal is to keep a group of 5 frogs happy via the tank's size and some smart planting, but we will definitely keep an eye out for aggression whenever the frogs we choose mature.
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

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Originally Posted by Pumilo View Post
So many variables, but as a generality, imitators have always been the boldest thumbs in my frog room. My banded imitators shattered that generality, as they were quite shy. I've talked to a couple other thumb keepers who also found the bandeds to be shyer. Fantistica and Sirensis would be at the bottom of my list for boldness. Vents wouldn't be much higher.



Your list, in my thoughts on order.

Varadero - Imitator

Baja

Variabilis (Highland)

Benedictas -- assuming you have both sexes present, and have a well built, heavily planted viv. Leaf litter everywhere. They want to be able to find cover within about an inch, from anywhere in the viv. Once they know the viv better than you do, and know they can always take one hop to safety, they'll become bolder. Broms, leaf litter, broad leafed plants...things like those for cover.

Finally, Iquitos. I cannot freaking believe how shy my group of Iquitos vents was! I've built a thumbnail tank or two in my day, and I'm told I do a decent job, but I have never discovered a way to make vents, especially Iquitos, bold. The one thing they do have going for them, is that they are incredibly social. The will can breed to insane populations in a small viv, if enough resources are present. I recall an experiment that Ed was privy to. A small group was kept in a 5 gallon vivarium for quite some time. It was well set up, and monitored by very experienced people...don't try this at home! Upon breakdown, over 20 healthy frogs were removed.

Again, don't try that in a home vivarium.



Be careful grouping imitators. If you aren't careful, when breeding behavior starts, frogs can start disappearing. They do best as a pair per viv, unless you are very careful with tank design.


Doug- my Iquitos were shy for about the first 6 months that I had them. I have a group of 6 and thought for sure I had lost a couple as 4 was the most I ever saw at once. Now they are extremely bold and sometimes even start calling while I have my hands in the tank doing maintenance. My plumpest female sits under a piece of driftwood right by the door all day and waits for me to dump flies in. She usually is out eating them before I even shut the door.

My standard imitators on the other hand were very shy and I hardly ever saw them.

I guess frogs are like a box of chocolate, you never know what you are going to get.


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Old 08-24-2017, 05:45 AM
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Doug- my Iquitos were shy for about the first 6 months that I had them. I have a group of 6 and thought for sure I had lost a couple as 4 was the most I ever saw at once. Now they are extremely bold and sometimes even start calling while I have my hands in the tank doing maintenance. My plumpest female sits under a piece of driftwood right by the door all day and waits for me to dump flies in. She usually is out eating them before I even shut the door.

My standard imitators on the other hand were very shy and I hardly ever saw them.

I guess frogs are like a box of chocolate, you never know what you are going to get.


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That's funny. My last pair of standard imis were incredibly bold. The male used to stand gaurd for his girl, whenever I was cutting plants or whatever. I could cut a plant a few inches away, and he wouldn't back down. He had an attitude that made me think, if I tried anything funny, he just might make me regret it!
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Old 08-25-2017, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

My 3.1.2 group of southern variabilis in an 18"x18"x24" expo terra are pretty darn bold! Love watching their individual personalities on a day to day basis. Their 13 froglets that I have in a grow out vivarium are possibly even more bold than their parents! I get their attention every time I walk near and especially when I lower myself so they're eye level with me since that means feeding time lol. I absolutely love them!
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Old 08-25-2017, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

I recounted my experience with benedicta above; hopefully you'll have a similar experience. In my group, by the way, it took about 6 or 7 months before they began to express this boldness, so don't be surprised if you don't see them much for the first few months (though maybe yours will be immediately bold, who knows?). I did notice that they became appreciably bolder when I added some broad-leafed, low growing plants that provide both cover and perching areas. Initially I had mostly broms, orchids, shinglers, and vining plants in there, but adding more ground cover helped. They often like to lay eggs down low, in the leaf litter (a deep layer of litter helps them feel secure, too, as they'll feel they can always dive and hide) under those plants, or film canisters on the ground. I wish they had a louder call to enjoy, but they're otherwise great captives. Beware their speed! I've had a couple fly out of the viv like rockets, even clearing my head, but have been lucky enough to catch them before they disappeared. They can really fly.

Now you just need to choose between Shucushuyacu, Pampa Hermosa, or the new yellow-head variety from UE . . .
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Old 08-25-2017, 04:10 PM
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I recounted my experience with benedicta above; hopefully you'll have a similar experience. In my group, by the way, it took about 6 or 7 months before they began to express this boldness, so don't be surprised if you don't see them much for the first few months (though maybe yours will be immediately bold, who knows?). I did notice that they became appreciably bolder when I added some broad-leafed, low growing plants that provide both cover and perching areas. Initially I had mostly broms, orchids, shinglers, and vining plants in there, but adding more ground cover helped. They often like to lay eggs down low, in the leaf litter (a deep layer of litter helps them feel secure, too, as they'll feel they can always dive and hide) under those plants, or film canisters on the ground. I wish they had a louder call to enjoy, but they're otherwise great captives. Beware their speed! I've had a couple fly out of the viv like rockets, even clearing my head, but have been lucky enough to catch them before they disappeared. They can really fly.

Now you just need to choose between Shucushuyacu, Pampa Hermosa, or the new yellow-head variety from UE . . .
Thanks! The beauty of a converted aquarium means top only access, and hopefully a greatly reduced escape potential. I have no problem waiting on the frogs to feel secure. Our bajas were somewhat shy for the 6 first months, and our highland bronze auratus had me worried I had lost some of them for almost a year. Both groups settled down and now show that they feel comfortable.

I will take your advice on ground cover plants and make sure we incorporate some to go with our endless supply of magnolia leaves.

We will definitely stick with the Shucushuyacu if we choose Benedictas, which we are about 95% committed to. Thanks again!
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Old 08-26-2017, 03:43 AM
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Default Re: Ranitomeya Boldness

Benedictas are awesome looking, I called UE the day after they announced the yellow heads and were sold out in mere hours of the announcement. I put my contact info down for their next available which would have been spring 2018 and I didn't want to wait so I went ahead and got something else.
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