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View Poll Results: Is Bio-Seal safe or dangerous?
Safe. 85 45.21%
Dangerous. 13 6.91%
No clue whatsoever. 90 47.87%
Voters: 188. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2009, 01:35 AM
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Default Bio-Seal

So I went to a reptile show yesterday and I found this really nice guy who has been breeding PDF's for around 30+ years. I talked with him for a bit and he said that it was perfectly safe to use GE bio-seal silicone in tanks. He said that he called GE up and they said that they never changed the original formula for their silicone and the bio-seal was for marketing purposes only. Since I was having a big problem finding non bio-seal silicone I said great and bought myself some. Only now I am freaking out, I already used it in my tank and I hope that I don't have to rip it apart (God help me!). Is bio-seal safe or not? I have heard it both ways numerous times and I don't know what to think now... Help!
~Peace
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

I have used it before with no ill effects to date. But it seems that most of the people that think it is dangerous think it is dangerous, they never really experienced any ill effects. I am a little concerned over the mold inhibitor, but many people have had no ill effects.

Caden
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:14 AM
 
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

i built my tank about 8 months ago and used it and i haven't had any problems with my frogs. And alot of people i have talked to in my area used the same stuff and they like it. The only thing I have heard make sure it dries completely with no smell left.
nick
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Any reason not to trust the breeder with 30+ years of experience???

A phone call to GE would confirm his story... and put your mind at ease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
So I went to a reptile show yesterday and I found this really nice guy who has been breeding PDF's for around 30+ years. I talked with him for a bit and he said that it was perfectly safe to use GE bio-seal silicone in tanks. He said that he called GE up and they said that they never changed the original formula for their silicone and the bio-seal was for marketing purposes only. Since I was having a big problem finding non bio-seal silicone I said great and bought myself some. Only now I am freaking out, I already used it in my tank and I hope that I don't have to rip it apart (God help me!). Is bio-seal safe or not? I have heard it both ways numerous times and I don't know what to think now... Help!
~Peace
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:19 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

I have two azureus which have been living in a tank with bio seal for over a year. They don't appear to mind the bio seal formula.

Use it.
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

I've used it in all of my tanks, and have never had a problem.
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:24 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Bio-Seal is a simple sales tactic, a spin on the same product if ou will. Almost all ge silicone has "bioseal" in it (1 and 2). They simply emphasised it in thier newer packaging as a marketing ploy. Albiet its not called bioseal in the other types of silicone, the same compund is present.
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

as everyone else has said and will say... SAFE SAFE SAFE..
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:12 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Ok, thanks everyone. I will add more siliconed drift wood to my tank today, thanks for putting my mind at ease.
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Why even take the chance? Is my question. When there are alternatives that don't have the potential risk.

Home Depot even sells aquarium sealant.

If there is a chance there are additional chemicals in it that could harm the frogs or tads why use it? Did anyone take the time to read the ingredient labels of aquarium silicone & compare it to one with bio-seal to see if the ingredients were different or the same? Don't the products with bio-seal say on the packaging that they are not safe or to be used in aquariums?

This discussion has been going on for some time. Not only in the dart frog word, but the aquarium hobby as well. Here are some additional links to threads on other sites discussing the topic.

Cichlid-Forum :: View topic - G.E. Silicone 1

Is all slicone the same? - Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community

Brands of silicone to use [Archive] - PlecoFanatics.com
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

GE Bio-seal silicone is all i have used on all of my vivs - the only problem i have had is the lighter shades of tan/brown take a few extra days to cure... Other than that - the stuff works awesome..
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Quote:
Originally Posted by melissa68 View Post
Did anyone take the time to read the ingredient labels of aquarium silicone & compare it to one with bio-seal to see if the ingredients were different or the same? Don't the products with bio-seal say on the packaging that they are not safe or to be used in aquariums?
I believe that GE silicone II has always said that it is not for use in aquariums. People have contacted GE since the "bioseal" addition and the reps have told them that there was no change in the actual formula, just the tube. I use nothing else.
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane View Post
I believe that GE silicone II has always said that it is not for use in aquariums. People have contacted GE since the "bioseal" addition and the reps have told them that there was no change in the actual formula, just the tube. I use nothing else.
There is nothing on the bioseal tube that says it is not safe for aquarium use.. where did you get that information?
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

so i called the number on the back of the tube - tech support told me that the only complications that could arise from using this product for vivariums is that it may effect the ph of the water that is comes in contact with... so i could see why it may be a problem for aquariums - but what about vivariums that have drainage and no recirculation of water? Does anyone know if other silicone brands have the same effect on ph?
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Quote:
Originally Posted by melissa68 View Post
Home Depot even sells aquarium sealant.
Really? You are very lucky. The only place in my neck of the woods that carries it, is a LFS that specializes in salt water fish. Even then all they have is the small 3 oz of clear all glass aquarium silicone. If I want black I have to order it and that takes for ever .

Anyways getting back to the original question I have always played it safe and used aquarium silicone.
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuckinrim8 View Post
There is nothing on the bioseal tube that says it is not safe for aquarium use.. where did you get that information?
It's printed on the tube under the "Instructions for use".
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Old 01-05-2009, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

If you look closely on the MSDS for GE silicones you can note that some contain a organnotin compound which has antimildew properties If you look up these types of tin compounds one can see that there are some potential concerns. I would suggest checking to see if those compounds are in all of the types of silicone.

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Old 01-05-2009, 08:57 PM
 
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

I think it would be more of a problem to fresh and saltwater tanks, not for terrariums.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

From the MSDS for dibutyltin acetate the ingredient.. DOW CORNING CORPORATION Material Safety Data Sheet DOW CORNING(R) 3-6077 RTV SILICONE ABLATIVE KIT (CURING AGENT

quote "Teratogens
CAS Number
Wt %
Component Name 1067-33-0
3.0 - 7.0
Dibutyltin diacetate
Evidence of teratogenicity (birth defects)
in laboratory animals.
Reproductive Effects
CAS Number
Wt %
Component Name 1067-33-0
3.0 - 7.0
Dibutyltin diacetate
Evidence of reproductive effects in
laboratory animals.
"endquote

So it is an endocrine disruptor as well as a teratogen. As an endocrine disruptor it is probably effective in small doses..

Ed
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

A little further digging indicates that is used to be used as an effective antifouling agent for water craft...

Ed
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

The difference between silicone I and II is what the silicone is suspended in, and therefore what it out-gasses as it cures. Type I uses an acid ( which is why it smells like vinegar), and type II uses some other chemicals. I can't remember what they are, but if you read the tube, it will tell you. The bio-seal has been in the mix for a long time, and is just a re-packaging ploy.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

On looking up the MSDS I was unable to locate a MSDS for GE I that contained the dibutyltin acetate while the MSDS for GE silicone II did contain the dibutyltin acetate.

Organotins used in polymerization materials have also been shown to have a good ability to migrate see further in http://www.ehponline.org/members/1973/004/04007.PDF and have been shown once they migrate to potentially be a source of toxicity


Ed
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

lol i read someones post above said something about comparing the ingredients in aquarium silicone and GE brand, and about how GE says on the tube to not use in aquariums, the reason they put that on the GE tubes is because the brands like GE, dap, and any other brands are the ones that make the silicone for say all glass aquariums, and all the other aquarium manufactures. so when people think that they have to use "aquarium" silicone they pay 3 times more for a tube. GE is making money off people buying silicone for around the house and they are keeping the aquarium manufactures business by printing this on the label, making money off the aquarium manufactures also. basically when you buy an aquarium brand silicone you are just paying $10-$15 for a tube of GE that you could have picked up at home depot or lowes for $5. i havent used the GE silicone II but i have used the GE I, i havent had any problems, and by what all i have read about II seems like theres no problems with it either. i think ill use it with my next tank.

theres nothing to risk when using GE brand silicone. if you like to spend more money for the same product, thats up to you, ill keep using GE brand.
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Old 01-05-2009, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

And that is why you need to look on the MSDS..for each of the products. It is required by law that any potentially dangerous chemicals or reactions have to be listed on the MSDS.
That can enable you to identify when an item is repackaged however it doesn't eliminate the potential for small batch specific products made to certain specs which would cost more.



Ed
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

For those of you complaining about the price of Aquarium Sealant - Glasscages.com sells clear & black in the 10.4 oz cartridges.

$6 for clear
$8 for black

Glasscages.com - Aquarium Sealant is the link to their site.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

plus shipping, which makes it come out to be around $15 a tube, if not more.
all im saying is that i have used GE silicone I clear tons of times with no problems, i have even used it in aquariums filled with water, and i like running down to lowes or home depot and picking it up for $5 or less, a tube, i have even come across a few tubes at big lots for $2.50 a tube. its the same thing as the aquarium manufacturers silicone. just my opinion.
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Old 01-16-2009, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

I did some reading on dibutyltin diacetate. It's a catalyst, so it probably doesn't get tied up covalently in the polymer (I was originally thinking that the acetate groups would leave and the dibutyltin would make a cross link in the polymer, but it doesn't look like thats the case). With that said, I have my doubts that any significant amount of dibutyltin diacetate will linger in the viv after the curing process. It has a relatively low melting and boiling point, so it should evaporate readily and its insoluble in water.
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Old 01-16-2009, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

In the use with a silicone polymer it can also function as part of an anti-soil "varnish". There are a lot of variations on the formulation depending on the desired final product.
However with respect to the toxicity issues, it is a known teratogen and dibutyltin diacetate can inhibit aromatase function in embryos. Aromatase disruption has been shown to cause early death in anuran embryos (on visual inspection) The embryos swell become "bloated" and cease developement. Aromatase inhibition has also been shown to be a cause of SLS.

Ed
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
In the use with a silicone polymer it can also function as part of an anti-soil "varnish". There are a lot of variations on the formulation depending on the desired final product.
However with respect to the toxicity issues, it is a known teratogen and dibutyltin diacetate can inhibit aromatase function in embryos. Aromatase disruption has been shown to cause early death in anuran embryos (on visual inspection) The embryos swell become "bloated" and cease developement. Aromatase inhibition has also been shown to be a cause of SLS.

Ed
I totally agree on the toxicity aspect. I guess the question is whether or not this stuff is still present in the silicone when its fully cured and if its in a form that would be accessible to frogs.

I'm undecided on this one, but I'm starting to reconsider which brand of silicone I'm going to use for the viv I'm building. Would you use GE II, Ed?
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Old 01-16-2009, 10:21 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Well since you asked my opinion.. I have never used it in any set ups at work or at home. Originally since I wasn't sure what was in the material.. now since I have a better idea.. no.
It does make me wonder if this could be one of the intermittant causes of SLS we see in some frogs. (sounds like a good grad or post grad project...)

I was looking for an abstrat I had seen earlier that had a discussion that the organotins were not that mobile once they got into the soil. This gives me some concerns as this means that it doesn't flush out of the tank but stays in the local enviroment. The frogs will consume the substrate when capturing the prey items. There are also some studies that show organotins are mobile in biological fluids but those studies are not that recent and I would prefer more updated information but assuming the worst case scenario, given what we know of the permeability of anuran skin it could be a concern.

The anecdotal reports of I've used it for years with no problems are not really useful with respect to things that could cause early embryo or egg death as the cause is not apparent.

Ed
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Old 01-18-2009, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Ed,
I pulled up some MSDS's on GE silicone II and there is no mention of dibutyltin diacetate or any other organotins. What makes you think that this stuff is in GE silicone II?
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Old 01-18-2009, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

If you pull up the GE MSDS, they list on their that there is a proprietary mixture and get around disclosing it. However if you start back digging you can pull up the information. Apparently dibutyltin diacetate is probably one of the most commonly used catalysts for silcone products that on curing emit ammonia and dibutyl alcohol (off the top of my head try looking in the online patent information).

I'm a little pressed for time and energy but I can probably track down the original information later on.. (or maybe I was looking at the wrong thing).

Ed

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Old 01-20-2009, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Bioseal aside, does anyone know with absolute certainty that these other compounds aren't found in Aquarium sealant as well. If it is a major catalyst I don't see how they could get around using it in aquarium sealant.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Quote:
Originally Posted by garweft View Post
Bioseal aside, does anyone know with absolute certainty that these other compounds aren't found in Aquarium sealant as well. If it is a major catalyst I don't see how they could get around using it in aquarium sealant.
This catalyst speeds up the reaction (and influences more cross linking), but it isn't a necessary component for silicone to work.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

I did some digging and found that GE silicone II window and door DOES contain dibutyltin diacetate. GE uses dibutyltin diacetate suspended in toluene as a solvent-based released coating system, so the organotin is residual and doesn't leave during the curing process. In other words, its designed to coat the silicone surface upon curing and remain there. This system (GE product grade SS4164) is probably a main component of BioSeal.

I don't know how mobile the dibutyltin diacetate is after the curing process, but it's something to consider since its a known teratogen.
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

like garweft asked, I think we should check if any of the other silicones are using it also
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:46 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

The MSDS for DAP aquarium silicone doesn't list any organotins and neither does the MSDS for GE silicone I window and door.

The problem is that all these MSDS's are made by different companies and some are less stringent than others. For example, a MSDS for silicone intended for construction won't necessary list dibutyltin because it is very little threat to the user, whereas silicone coating thats intended for baking sheets would pose a significant threat and would definitely have to disclose dibutyltin in it's MSDS (most countries don't allow any organotins in the silicone coating of baking sheets).

So, what I'm saying is that its often hard to tell which silicone brands have organotins in them (especially if the product isn't 'food grade'). Complicating things further, is the fact that (in GE's case) the organotin is part of a proprietary ingredient (BioSeal) that the company often tries to sidestep disclosing.
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

So if aquarium silicones could possibly contain them, would there really be one safer than the other? What would be the easiest ways to find out about them?
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:43 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
So if aquarium silicones could possibly contain them, would there really be one safer than the other? What would be the easiest ways to find out about them?
The most conclusive way would be to call the manufacturers and ask specifically if the product contains any organotin catalysts.

Although, I'm under the impression that DAP and GE silicone I don't contain an organotin catalyst because they are a sort of bare-bones acetoxy rtv silicone. Whereas ge silicone II is a bit more of a high tech and high performance silicone that uses a more complicated curing process (I think its some combination of an oxime/alkoxy condensation curing rtv)
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Old 01-22-2009, 12:58 AM
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Default Re: Bio-Seal

OK, but they only can really be found in clear in most areas - that's probably the cause of the discussion mostly
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