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Old 11-19-2019, 11:54 AM
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Default Tinc tank setup

I've read in numerous threads that species specific tank setup is just as important, if not more, than tank size. I've searched to find more information in regards to setting up a tank for tincs and haven't been able to find thorough advice. Can anyone explain this in greater detail to me. Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

I keep my tinc by couple in 100x50x50 (cm) tanks.
it is better for tinctorius to have lots of space in the bottom of the tank with a few trunks or something to climb on, no waterfalls or pools but lots of leaf litter instead. Ticntorius is best kept dryer imo. Also provide cocohuts for them to lay their eggs. In my experience they also like big leafed plants such as epiprenum aureum for example.

This is how their habitat look like : https://youtu.be/gNlZLBpivMI
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Old 11-19-2019, 03:58 PM
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Thanks for the video, very helpful. Right now I've got a cork round and an assortment of plants I can put in the tank; nerve plant, broms, english ivy, java moss, creeping jew/purple heart, and wax begonia. Probably will get some pythos clippings to propagate per your suggestion and possibly a fern. From the video sparse planting seems the most natural way to set up a tank for tincs.
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Old 11-19-2019, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

Tijl, do you have a pic of your Tinc viv that you could post to illustrate an ideal layout?

I'm especially curious about how much cover and visual barriers you offer. I've quickly acquired your horror of a sloping faux-rock wall covered in moss, but I'd like some visual ideas of what the opposite of that is.

The video is really cool and useful, but hard for me to translate because of the scale of wild habitat; a viv wouldn't have multiple feet of open tree bark between areas of sparse cover, but I'm guessing that's what we're trying to replicate for Tincs and similar frogs.
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

You can find the layouts of my tinctorius tanks shot during the summer (wet season for my tincs) here :

https://youtu.be/NSDO1tMKHpA


I will try and take some pictures tomorow if you like?
You have to keep in mind that my tanks are not "specialy designed" for Tinctorius, but they are standard "Dutch Rana" showcase tanks.
If I would design tanks for only Tinctorius, they would look a lot more like my tanks for my offspring frogs.

They would look more like this picture I got from google :



I would not use bromeliads and would add some big leaved plants. i would also install a better drainage system. Now I have to scoop the water out by hand that collects in the front of the tank due to the double bottom layer.
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Last edited by Tijl; 11-19-2019 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

Awesome! Thanks! (That cat, though...)

I wasn't asking about the tanks themselves (although now that you mention it, I'm sure many of us would find it valuable to know what you think are good design features of the tank itself), but rather the hardscaping, and choice and placement of plants.
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Old 11-19-2019, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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Awesome! Thanks! (That cat, though...)

I wasn't asking about the tanks themselves (although now that you mention it, I'm sure many of us would find it valuable to know what you think are good design features of the tank itself), but rather the hardscaping, and choice and placement of plants.
Sorry, I think I still don't understand the question completely.

Does not matter that much I think. I like how for example trumpetnuts and logs or wood just provide shelter just they way they are, but this all can be placed quite random in the setup. I think it's important for us that tanks are designed for the hobbyist to work in easy and quick and also to monitor in the best way possible. Ofcourse this after all the recuiremntes for the particular species of frogs are fullfilled.
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Old 11-19-2019, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

Also, these kind of setups are very good for Tinctorius (and other sP. aswell):

https://youtu.be/Rrsc8etDSDk

or the complete room :

https://youtu.be/bAzU2rNS8Wo

I know a few bigger breeders who keep them similar to this and they have very good results in breeding aswell as getting the frogs live to an older age than most hobbyists.
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Old 11-19-2019, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
Also, these kind of setups are very good for Tinctorius (and other sP. aswell):

https://youtu.be/Rrsc8etDSDk

or the complete room :

https://youtu.be/bAzU2rNS8Wo

I know a few bigger breeders who keep them similar to this and they have very good results in breeding aswell as getting the frogs live to an older age than most hobbyists.
those setups make me truly sad for those frogs.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:32 AM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
Also, these kind of setups are very good for Tinctorius (and other sP. aswell):

https://youtu.be/Rrsc8etDSDk

or the complete room :

https://youtu.be/bAzU2rNS8Wo

I know a few bigger breeders who keep them similar to this and they have very good results in breeding aswell as getting the frogs live to an older age than most hobbyists.
Is it the open space, and the relative dryness, of these setups that make them good in your view?

Do you recommend that substrate (Hydroton, I'm guessing)? If so, why?

That's the first time I've seen really simple breeding setups for darts -- it reminds me of the tubs we breed snakes and geckos in, so I understand the value of simplicity in these setups.
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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those setups make me truly sad for those frogs.
Can you clarify why you say that? I am realy interrested why you say this.

Imo these setups are perfect for the frogs. One of the bigggest problem in our hobby is that people think or build more about what the eye wants, than what the frogs want or need. At least that is my experience in Europe...
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Old 11-20-2019, 09:31 AM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Is it the open space, and the relative dryness, of these setups that make them good in your view?

Do you recommend that substrate (Hydroton, I'm guessing)? If so, why?

That's the first time I've seen really simple breeding setups for darts -- it reminds me of the tubs we breed snakes and geckos in, so I understand the value of simplicity in these setups.

Good questions!

Yea, I think the open space works, also for the hobbyist to get a good view on what's going on. What I think is key to this succes : Notice how most of the tanks do not have any lightsource? I think that is also something that should be looked at more. In my experience, I have better result in having visuable Amereega an Tinctorius when using light scourses on low lumen. Seems like the frog's are doing better than the frogs that are exposed to more lighting. Ofcourse this is bad for our plants... But I want to focus only on the frogs for a while.

Here is another expamle of a breeder (+3000animals a year) that uses almost no lighting and a similar setup than the one in the youtubeclip. :



He has around 50 tanks at least like shown in this picture, just filled with offspring:


And I don't know how many aquariums filled with thousands of tadpoles, but a lot! :



I think he has most of his Tinctorius for 10+years like this?


The substrate :

I think it is hydroton mixed with clay pellets like akadama. Hydroton does not soak up water, so the botom stays dry, only on the surface of the pellets there can be some water after misting. It's a very good drainage layer.

And (if there is Akadama mixed) the Akadama is used to help the frog take in minerals and vitamines trough their skin.

In the picture I posted above, the substrate is gravel called Ardenner split. wich the breeder uses cause he says there are allot of minerals in it.


Sometimes simple things just work better...
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

I'm thinking that solid waste management is different in vivs that don't have an organic substrate and microfauna to break things down (or are there microfauna in these vivs?).

Without a lot of plants and hardscape, I suspect humidity control is quite different than in a fully planted display sort of viv. In the room video (https://youtu.be/bAzU2rNS8Wo) I don't see ventilation or drainage, but I do see automatic misting. Here:
I see drainage, but no misting and no ventilation. Are these vivs basically sealed, or I am I just not seeing something?
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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One of the bigggest problem in our hobby is that people think or build more about what the eye wants, than what the frogs want or need.
So I bump into people who are new to keeping other herps and are appalled to find out how the vast majority of serious herp keepers house their animals. There is a trend toward bigger, more elaborate, 'naturalistic' enclosures for herps -- some of the trend is justified (there's a growing literature on the benefits of habitat enrichment for "lower" animals), but these sorts of enclosures have disadvantages for the animals, too (think of the problems with drip walls running into a moss bed in a tinc viv).

When I sell a snake or a gecko, and the new owner puts the animal in a big elaborate display tank, the animal will sometimes stop eating (a red flag for stress). I direct the person here, to show them housing that works really well:

https://silverappleexotics.weebly.co...ecko-info.html

This is how we herp keepers house our adult animals, too, just scaled up in size. Many captive herps thrive in basic setups. Not all herps are kept in simplistic tubs, since some simply do better in large, naturalistic enclosures (chameleons, some arboreal snakes).

I'm not at all to the point where I'm convinced that I want to recommend these simplistic set ups to novice dart frog keepers (I have more to learn here, I think), but this is very interesting.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

I would also not recommend these kind of setups for beginners. But I think sometimes "bioactivity" in our tanks is highly overestemated. I don't belive the cleanup crews can get rid of all the waste our frogs produce and we have to help them clean the tank more than we think. that is why these simple tanks are easy to maintain and they are also ented with springtails and isopods. I believe that he told me he only mists once for 10secs every 2 days or something. there is no ventilation is these tanks, but the air gets refreshed when misting by hand.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:16 PM
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I am probably going to regret saying this, but those setups are painful to look at. I don't even know where to start but maybe it's just to say this - that is almost not even the same hobby that I engage in. To me, setting up a natural-looking tank and being able to look at it is half or more of the fun. I fully recognize that this is my bias, and that is the lens I am looking through when I write the following.

I don't doubt that these tanks provide the minimum for a frog's well-being. Nor do I doubt that you can produce a lot of froglets with a minimum of effort in such a setup. To me, this speaks more to the resilience of the animals than the appropriateness of this type of enclosure. I think, though, that we should be targeting conditions in our tanks that exceed the minimum. I think we should try to provide the "best" life we can for our frogs.

This goes back to the discussion we were having in the other thread about what kind of tank is best for a dart frog. Things like breeding, long life, "normal" behavior, these are all potential indicators of success in keeping frogs. However, they may not be telling the whole story. I love that video of the Tincs that you have posted. They are clearly cruising through a large area of leaf litter. However, this doesn't tell the whole story. What do they do at night? Do they climb up to a nesting place? Do they sleep down underneath the leaf litter? What do they do to avoid predators? How often do they encounter rivals and how do they react? We don't know the answers to all of these questions.

The best we can do is speculate and try to mimic nature as best we can knowing that the dimensions of the enclosure (along with 1000 or more other things that are present in nature that aren't in our enclosures) prevent us from doing it perfectly. We don't have a good enough understanding of the numerous factors that comprise a frog's habitat (it's hyperniche) to perfectly emulate it in our enclosures. We don't even know the exact parameters of things we have control of in our enclosures for each species/morph, let alone accounting for the preferences of individuals. What we end up doing, then, is trying to come up with what I call a "hyper-real" enclosure that tries to mimic the different elements of the frog's habitat in nature but within a much smaller spatial scale. We also try to do this in a way that will provide similar conditions for long periods of time (this is where my opposition to every person new to the hobby seeming to require a water feature or paludarium). We all know that having to knock down a tank and start over is going to be stressful to the frogs. Let's design enclosures with longevity in mind, as well as how well they give the frogs something similar to what their relatives in nature get to experience. You are welcome to disagree with any or all of the above. Most of it is based on anecdotal evidence that I personally experienced or read about that others have experienced.

However, the enclosures you show in the pictures and video don't seem to even try to mimic conditions in nature. Yes, they probably attend to the basic needs of temperature and humidity, food, etc. But, what about these enclosures is similar to any native habitat these frogs experience. There is only a hut to hide behind. The rocks/gravel that these frogs are living on MAYBE appropriate for some stream-dwelling Ameerega or anthonyii or similar, but even those frogs can move away from the rocks in a stream when they want to. How do those rocks feel to a species that rarely encounters a rock surface in nature? Where is the leaf litter that you and I would recommend to any beginning Tinc owner? I can't help but think that these setups stress the frogs out compared to a more naturalistic setup but that they are resilient enough that they breed and have long lives IN SPITE of the conditions they are being kept in. These setups certainly don't provide the same degree of enrichment, regardless of what we think we know about the cognitive abilities of these animals. The truth is that we can't know since we don't understand the frog's brains and behavior well enough to know how to minimize stress. So, I choose to err on the side of caution and do my best to provide enclosures that provide more than the minimum.

Circling back to my initial statement, I think that these enclosures represent a take on our hobby that doesn't resonate with me. This reminds me of the conditions in the Matrix movie where humans are being held in pods where their basic nutritional needs are being met but nothing beyond that is being provided. Does it work? Yes, I have already stipulated this. Is it the best way to keep frogs? Not to me. Clearly opinions vary on this, though.

Tijl, again I have to say that I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I see from your enclosures that you don't keep frogs like this. I know you take good care of your animals. I am just trying to provide a counter-argument to the folks that advocate keeping animals in the types of conditions depicted in the pictures and videos you are showing. I very much appreciate you posting them because I have never seen anything like them and it made me think hard about what it is that I don't like about them. Thanks again for your thoughtful participation on this board and for posting these items.


Mark
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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argument of

Mark
Hi Mark!

I realy like your comment or arguments/vision on this one and I see this as a good disscussion, not a fight or something like that. Have we had one in the past? I don't seem to remeber?

annyway,
You can be sure I also support like 90% of what you say here. I would also defineitly add leaf litter to these tanks or setups! and wiuld never recommend on keeping frogs in this way (at least ot at the moment)

I know they are a sour to the eye. As you said, I do not keep frogs like this and also would not keep frogs like this. Although I have to admit my grow out tanks look similar to these setups.

As far as you say these tanks do not come close to mimic their natural habitat, I'm so sure they don't... I think these tanks probably micic some part, for example their microclimate better than most of the tanks we have. Also the enrichment of the clay or minerals is heavly underestamated and is kept in mind in these setups. These setup must reach the basic needs of the frogs PERFECT or it wont work imo, heavy consiquences as a result. But same goes for any setup I think...

I think the frogs would die sooner than later if ther are under (a lot of) stress due to whatever reason. Heavy breeding, stress from not having shelter, or anny other arguments that come to mind... And to me these breeders have provne that their tinctorius stay healty for many years and have no signs of stress. If the frogs are kept a live as batteries (like the matrix) i think they would not reach old age.

Greets



I feel sorry for the hostage takover of this topic @calhoun3186 btw....
This has nothing to do with basic advice for keeping Tinctorius, my appolagies.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

I don't think we have ever fought about anything, Tijl. I just want to make sure you know that my intention is never to fight :-) It is important to me that these boards are seen as a safe place for productive discussion and that as many people as possible feel comfortable participating in the conversation!

You make some good arguments about the appropriateness of the enclosures and I agree with 90% of what you say :-) I agree that there maybe some parameters of these enclosures that are easier to maintain because of their simplicity. I also suspect that you are right about the importance of direct mineral absorption from the substrate. And, I have to admit that some of my grow-outs are closer to these setups than I would like to admit, but those are always temporary.

Where I disagree is with the assumption that breeding or long life are complete indicators of well-being in frogs. I think that frogs could be considerably stressed and still breed and have long life. I don't view these as indicators of PERFECT conditions. I think there is a range of conditions that we could keep frogs where they would live long and breed but might still be stressed. That is why I don't like these setups because they could be effective in breeding but still cause stress that might not be present in a more natural setup. However, as I have said numerous times, I can't prove this (nor do I think anybody can prove the opposite), so it is just conjecture. In the absence of compelling evidence or research, I have to do the best I can. We can also talk it out and figure it out together!

As I said before, I like setting up what I consider to be natural enclosures and observing how the frogs interact with those enclosures. I can't imagine that the enclosures in the pics and videos you posted give as much opportunity to observe interesting behavior in the frogs, but that clearly is not the goal of that type of enclosure.

Mark
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
So I bump into people who are new to keeping other herps and are appalled to find out how the vast majority of serious herp keepers house their animals. There is a trend toward bigger, more elaborate, 'naturalistic' enclosures for herps -- some of the trend is justified (there's a growing literature on the benefits of habitat enrichment for "lower" animals), but these sorts of enclosures have disadvantages for the animals, too (think of the problems with drip walls running into a moss bed in a tinc viv).

[...]


I'm not at all to the point where I'm convinced that I want to recommend these simplistic set ups to novice dart frog keepers (I have more to learn here, I think), but this is very interesting.
I like the idea of 'habitat enrichment' because it appears to engage the suite of instincts the organism evolved with. Whether or not that translates to 'happiness' per se is very debatable, given that many of us tend to anthropomorphize these animals well past their (likely) cognitive capabilities.

Frogs in the wild don't discern between abandoned tires and bromeliad axils, as far as I know, so I think it's fair to say they don't "care" in terms of aesthetics, they respond to stimuli that trigger their instincts.

That said, I see a lot of vivaria these days that are variations on a very familiar style that looks more like a garden to me than any frog habitat I've seen. If it works, great -- but sometimes I wonder about how much floor space (for example) gets eaten by elaborate backgrounds and hardscaping, and think it might make it more difficult to monitor frogs long-term. Just speculating here so no one bite my head off.

For my own tanks I lean towards a balance between captive husbandry considerations, aesthetics and usable space. In the case of terrestrial species that means a bunch of leaf litter and wide open space, with some areas for cover created by wood and plants.

None of the breeding facilities I've seen are particularly elaborate; their primary considerations seem to be cleanliness, ease of tear-down, and ease of observation. And the frogs all look great -- big, healthy and active.

What do plants provide a frog?

1. Cover
2. Ambient humidity
3. Sites for reproductive activity
4. Foraging opportunities

Could you give an organism the same things with different tools and keep them "happy"? So long as their instincts are engaged, I imagine yes?

Humans evolved in an open grassland environment but we seem pretty happy not getting eaten by lions in Starbuck's.

Last edited by Fahad; 11-20-2019 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Added: 'foraging opportunities'
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

Just wanted to give my opinion here even though I have 0 real experience in keeping frogs for now. My take on this hobby is that one should recreate a piece of rainforest. And I mean a REAL piece of rainforest. I too see tons of really (In my opinion, of course) ugly setups around. I agree that the majority of them looks like a garden (they even have the lawn composed of moss ), completely fake looking. And I must say this is kind of my egoistic point of view, because after all, as long as the frogs have all they need, they don't really care. The vivarium is just as important as the frogs (again, this is only my opinion), and yes, it should be aesthetically pleasing to the eye. BUT I must admit setting up nice vivariums is not practical if you have a lot of frogs.



I'll add some pics of what I think should be of inspiration when building a Viv.SmartSelect_20191112-104415_Google.jpgSmartSelect_20191108-132914_Google.jpgSmartSelect_20191108-125938_Google.jpgSmartSelect_20191108-132858_Google.jpg
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
I feel sorry for the hostage takover of this topic @calhoun3186 btw....<img src="http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif" border="0" alt="" title="sad" class="inlineimg" />
This has nothing to do with basic advice for keeping Tinctorius, my appolagies.
No need to apologize, learning a lot right now.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2019, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
I keep my tinc by couple in 100x50x50 (cm) tanks.
it is better for tinctorius to have lots of space in the bottom of the tank with a few trunks or something to climb on, no waterfalls or pools but lots of leaf litter instead. Ticntorius is best kept dryer imo. Also provide cocohuts for them to lay their eggs. In my experience they also like big leafed plants such as epiprenum aureum for example.

This is how their habitat look like : https://youtu.be/gNlZLBpivMI
I'm not trying to hijack the thread or anything but what type of tinctorius is in the video? I am sorry but I am a beginner and I really like those. I apologize profusely for not knowing this.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2019, 10:06 AM
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Default Re: Tinc tank setup

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Originally Posted by Troia View Post
I'm not trying to hijack the thread or anything but what type of tinctorius is in the video? I am sorry but I am a beginner and I really like those. I apologize profusely for not knowing this.
I think these are D.Tinctorius "nominat/ Kaw Mountain" since the video says this was filmed in French Guiana.
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