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Old 05-08-2019, 10:34 AM
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Default dart frogs needs

what are the dart frogs needs in relation to terrarium size
as I am thinking of building another terrarium but a lot better setup than I have now
so is it the length or height that is must important
also what is the need for water a dish a waterfall
this will not be male female setup just the 7 males I have now
thanks for any help you give
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Old 05-08-2019, 10:58 AM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

These questions all depend on what kind of dartfrogs you have...
Also 7 frogs (regardkess male/female) is a realy big number of frogs to keep together, so you will need arealy big tank for this.
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Old 05-08-2019, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Why 7 males, and how did you wind up with that many of a single gender?
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Old 05-08-2019, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

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Originally Posted by Dane View Post
Why 7 males, and how did you wind up with that many of a single gender?
they was going for a good price also males don't fight like females
also like to hear them sing
I have had these for about 2 years now with no problems what so ever
I just like to build or have built a better terrarium
was thinking like a exo-terra 90x45x90cm
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Old 05-08-2019, 06:12 PM
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What species? This is probably the most important part to know for us...

Btw, you are absolutley wrong about males not being able to fight as hard as females... Ive seen my Tinctorius and Pumilio fight to death in the past. Had to break the Tinctorius up in several tanks cause of this. I also lost a younger Pumilio male last year cause the other one killed him...

I only think 7 Ranitomeya or 7 small sized Amereega will fit in that size of tank.
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Old 05-08-2019, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
What species? This is probably the most important part to know for us...

Btw, you are absolutley wrong about males not being able to fight as hard as females... Ive seen my Tinctorius and Pumilio fight to death in the past. Had to break the Tinctorius up in several tanks cause of this. I also lost a younger Pumilio male last year cause the other one killed him...

I only think 7 Ranitomeya or 7 small sized Amereega will fit in that size of tank.
I have
2 yellow banded frog
3 dyeing dart frog
2 blue azureus
and I have never had any problem with them
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Old 05-08-2019, 08:48 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

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Originally Posted by ds51 View Post
I have
2 yellow banded frog
3 dyeing dart frog
2 blue azureus
and I have never had any problem with them
Instead of investing in one big viv, do yourself a favor and invest in three modest sized ones. Three 18x18x18s would work well for what you have. Mixing species isn't a good idea.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:29 AM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

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Originally Posted by dmb5245 View Post
Instead of investing in one big viv, do yourself a favor and invest in three modest sized ones. Three 18x18x18s would work well for what you have. Mixing species isn't a good idea.
I have had these for two years now and never had a problem with them and they are all males
I want to have one big viv so it is easier for me to take care of
so I can keep all the frog together as they are now
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:39 AM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

I also recomend splitting them up just for animal well being.
You would need a tank with size 200x100x50 or something similar to give each frog a litlle bit of space they need.
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:48 AM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

I do have the room for a viv that size so I will have a look out for one
thanks for your help and info
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Old 05-09-2019, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Just keep in mind at those sizes you will be either converting a large aquarium, or having a vivarium custom made. Either one is going to be pricey.
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Old 05-09-2019, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

This is all a bit confusing to say the least. What size enclosure do you have this mixed species group of seven in now? Could you post a photo?
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Old 05-09-2019, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds51 View Post
I have had these for two years now and never had a problem with them and they are all males
I want to have one big viv so it is easier for me to take care of
so I can keep all the frog together as they are now
Well, not two years; a year and a half ago you didn't have any frogs at all:

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ng-set-up.html

You have all these in a 18 x 18 x 18 Exo Terra? Really?
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds51 View Post
I want to have one big viv so it is easier for me to take care of
so I can keep all the frog together as they are now
Choose the one species that you like the most, and sell/trade the rest. That way you can keep the tank you have, eliminate the need and extra expense of another, larger vivarium, and hopefully save yourself the trouble of creating more posts later asking, "Why are all my frogs dying?".
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Likely your frogs have been fine so far because they're still relatively young, as they get older they will need more space and definitely separation from the other species, or you risk them dying.
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Old 05-10-2019, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Well, not two years; a year and a half ago you didn't have any frogs at all:

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ng-set-up.html

You have all these in a 18 x 18 x 18 Exo Terra? Really?
well all must two years who splitting hairs
these are in a 90x45x45cm exo terra did not do the 18x18x18 exo terra
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Old 05-11-2019, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

this is my 90x45x45 exo-terra setup as it is now
but I want to do a bigger and better setup for my 7 pdf
sorry photos not that good as I not that good at taking photos
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Old 05-11-2019, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Quote:
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this is my 90x45x45 exo-terra setup as it is now
but I want to do a bigger and better setup for my 7 pdf
sorry photos not that good as I not that good at taking photos
If you want to create a better setup for your animals, SEPARATE them by species. I'm afraid you aren't likely to get much more input than that on this forum, since most of us have seen multiple examples of beginners making the same mistake that you already have, resulting in losses and reduced quality of life for the animals in question.
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Old 05-11-2019, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

I'd like to suggest -- based on experience from other species of caged animals as well as livestock -- that if you're not going to accept the most conservative of suggestions you've gotten so far (i.e. separate species) that you do this:

Leave them the way they are.

It may be that against the odds, those frogs have worked out an arrangement with each other. We've heard of this before -- someone tearing down a viv that started with three frogs only to find a dozen in there.

Livestock does this, too -- raise a group of roosters or ram sheep together, and they'll possibly learn to live together. But if you take a bunch of incompatible animals and either jam them together or move them into a new environment where they don't have their old territories and hiding spots, they'll kill each other. Aquarium fish can be like this: rearrange the tank or move them into a different one and all the old territories are gone and hell breaks loose.

Perhaps someone with relevant frog experience can critique my suggestion, but if you've got something working that really shouldn't be working, perhaps tempting fate by trying something else that also shouldn't work would turn out badly. If it ain't broke...

I've also read lots of those threads that Dane is referring to, where someone starts with a group of frogs and eventually has two frogs. That might be the outcome here, too -- my money is on this outcome, actually -- and that's why lots of successful keepers aren't real creative, or have real flashy vivs, but they just follow what is really just a foolproof recipe for keeping these animals.
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Old 05-11-2019, 10:24 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

I'm curious: Which is the main reason you want to keep these PDFs in one tank --- room space? cost of buying two new tanks? added maintenance? desire to have all frogs in a similar-looking setting?

One or two of those things aren't too hard to solve, depending on how much thought you want to invest.
  • You are obviously capable of making an attractive vivarium if you made the one that you pictured, and it isn't that hard to make a smaller viv (I don't know the centimeter-equivalent version, but an 18" cube) look attractive, with some planning.
  • Tanks aren't super expensive if you're buying them used. I don't know what the craigslist or Facebook Marketplace scene is like in the UK, but I'm able to find pretty good prices on small- to medium-sized tanks using sites like that, sites that just let people put up items and meet to sell them.
  • Some of the functions of maintaining a vivarium can be crossed over. You can mist multiple vivs with one misting machine, for instance. Those functions that can't be crossed over, are still done for three different enclosures in the same room one time more quickly than if you had done them for one enclosure three different times.

I would listen to the concerns that the others have first and foremost. They aren't made idly, or with the intention of belittling you. The users here are more worried that you're going to wind up in a bad way soon.
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Old 05-12-2019, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

many thanks for all the info you all have given me
which I have taken onboard and understand where you all are coming from
so what I am doing which should now make you all happy
also will make my pdf happy as well
I am planning to sell my 90x45x45 terrarium
and going to get three 45x45x45 terrarium
one for each type of pdf
which would well I hope save me some money
and will make for better living condition for the pdf
each terrarium will sit by the side of each other and hopefully will look like one large one
if I can plane and build it right
so once again many thanks for your help and info
so no pdf will or should be harmed at the end of it all
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Old 05-13-2019, 01:58 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

so change of mind
this is what I am going to do now
I am not selling the 90x45x45cm terrarium
I was thinking to save money and to get some money back
I will sell the dyeing dart frog and the blue azureus
and keep the 2 yellow banded frog
and with the money I get for the ones I sell I will get some more yellow banded frogs
and redo the terrarium with new plants and branches and make it a lot better looking
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Old 05-13-2019, 02:25 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

just one thing to sort out
just males like I have now
or both sexes not sure which way to go
as I am still learning about pdf I may just stick with males
as I would not know what to do with the tadpoles and where to put them all
so what do you all think would be best for me to do
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:20 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ds51 View Post
just one thing to sort out
just males like I have now
or both sexes not sure which way to go
as I am still learning about pdf I may just stick with males
as I would not know what to do with the tadpoles and where to put them all
so what do you all think would be best for me to do
That really depends on you and what you want out of the hobby. I will say that if you end up with a group of leucomelas, that is one species that can do well in groups. There can still sometimes be aggression in a leuc group, but not as often as some other species. I was going to send you to the care sheet for Leucs on this board, but it is inexplicably sparse (given how common this species is) on information about breeding.

Basically, you would want to have a half coconut with a hole in it for a "door" over top of a petri dish or butter lid. The male will lead the female in then she will lay eggs. If they are fertile (they may not be for the first few clutches), you will then take the petri dish out and put it in another container that you can cover with plastic wrap. Put enough water in the petri dish that it touches the base of the egg mass, but does NOT cover them. Keep this amount of water in there by adding as needed. A couple of weeks later, the tads will start to hatch.

Once this happens, I remove them and put them in individual cups with a little bit of moss (I use dead sphagnum, live would probably be better since it will mop up a little bit of by-product) and a piece of leaf. This will release tannins over time and make the tadpole tea that people talk about. Feed the tads a high quality fish food or tadpole bites of some sort every few days to a week. I don't like to rush development on tadpoles or foul the water with too much or too frequent feeding. Some people do water changes. I don't do them and they morph just fine for me. It's up to you. Tadpoles of most species seem remarkably resistant to build-ups in nitrogen in its various forms. Once the tadpoles pop front feet (back feet will have already developed), you will want to do something about allowing them to crawl out. Some people tilt their cups (though you need to contain them somehow because they can be pretty mobile), but I just put them in another container with a little bit of water and with a rock holding one side up (yeah, I roll pretty high-tech). This is important because around the same time as popping front legs, the tads lose their gills and transition to lungs. They can drown if you don't provide them an opportunity to crawl out.

They will then lose their tail which they use as a source of energy to continue the morphing process. They don't seem to eat while this is happening, or at least I have never found the need to feed them during this phase that should be complete in a few days. Once complete (they are now "out of the water"), the froglets are ready to be moved to a grow-out tank (can be as simple as a plastic shoebox with a paper towel in the bottom and a little leaf litter) and you can start feeding them. Most leuc froglets can take melanogaster flies from day 1 out of the water, but sometimes somebody is too shy or delayed to take fruit flies right away. If somebody looks skinny, try spring tails. Sometimes a froglet will just fail to thrive, though, and you will lose it. If this is a rare event, don't let it trouble you.

From there on, just feed them every other day (some people say every day, but it isn't necessary in my experience) and they will grow. They can be sold after a couple of months out of the water but more is always better.

If all of that sounds like a hassle, maybe just stick with males. You will be missing out on some really cool behavior to observe, but you will be making a great decision if you don't think breeding is for you. If it sounds like something you might want to try, though, I recommend it at least once. It is really rewarding to watch your own little guys grow through all the phases. I will also say that if you start to breed a lot of frogs, you need to have a plan for what to do with them. I am not familiar with your laws, but here I can sell my tadpoles to pet stores, through Craig's List, here on Dendroboard, etc. You need to make sure you have a plan if you produce more froglets than you want to keep around your house :-)

If my experience doesn't match other people's or are not considered best practices, I am happy to discuss.

Best of luck,

Mark
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

many thanks Encyclia for the time and the info you have given and taken to write this
I think before I get in to breading I need to have a good think about it
as you said where will I pass the young on to we can sell them to shops in the uk without any problems
but it just come down to the time needed and the room it will take up
but many thanks again
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Old 05-13-2019, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

If I were you, i'd take some decent pictures of each individual frog and post them here. I' would not be so sure you have only males...
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Old 05-14-2019, 11:21 AM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
If I were you, i'd take some decent pictures of each individual frog and post them here. I' would not be so sure you have only males...
i know i have only males as i got these from a breader
also i think i would have had some tadpoles by now
as i have had them for all must two years
also they are all singing must of the day
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

First of all ; Tinctorius can start late (+-3years) laying eggs. If you did not buy them adult size, i would not be so sure about them being all female. The seller can say whatever, you bought 7 frogs for him or her so easy money... Also it's easy to say they are all males if that is what you wanted to hear...
Sexing of frogs can be very difficult at young age, so I would never take this for granted.

Believe me, you would not have gotten any tadpoles by now. Allot of people never see tadpoles in a mixed species tank because of stress and or territorial behavior. Even tho everyone says their frogs are doing great... If their are different females for example, they eat eachothers eggs. And with these big nummer of frogs in a small tank, your frogs will surely not find a suitable or safe place for depositing eggs.

I have a hard time believing you when you say all of your frogs are singing everyday. I have been keeping Tinctorius for almost 10 years now and know for a fact this is not their normal behavior. Tinctorius does not call every day and certainly not all day long.


Just take some decent pictures of each individual frog so you can see if you have females, than it might be more intersting for you to sell of singles males, couples or...
You might even keep a couple or so?

Only win for you... I dont see a downside for doing this?
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Old 05-14-2019, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: dart frogs needs

I did say must of the day they are singing
I did not say every day it is just the way i type things
there no point in me taking photos as I am so bad at taking them
you may not be able to tell if they are females or males
but I am sure they are all males which is good enough for me
to go with what the breeder said
also I did not buy them all from him I got some from my local reptile shop
as I will be selling five of them I can always sell them as unsexed
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