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Old 03-11-2019, 06:15 PM
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Default Hygrolon and epiweb background

Do you have any experience with hygrolon or epiweb?
I want to use it for the first time and make a background with hygrolon and epiweb. But I don't know how to stick hygrolon to epiweb. Any ideas?
Will 2x39W T5 be enough to grow moss from moss mix?
Thanks for help!
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Greetings,

Silicone will work for you. I'd apply it to the hygrolon in a thin line around the edge and a scribble in the middle and then press/lay it over the epiweb.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:33 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Agreed - silicone works fine to adhere those 2 products to each other. I'd start by cutting my 2 pieces to size (test-fitting them in the tank). Then run a stripe of black fish-safe silicone up & down both ends of the hygrolon, and do a grid of fingernail-sized "dots" on about 2" centers between the stripes. Do it quick, the silicone starts to skin up fast and it doesn't stick nearly as well once that begins. When you've got all your dots laid, moosh your epiweb down onto the sticky hygrolon, and let it all cure overnight. If you drape a wrung-out wet t-shirt over the epiweb that will ensure great curing (the reaction needs water vapor / humidity).

All that said, moss really, really does better on organic substrates. But you can get results - slower ones - on the synthetics. Most climbing plants with real roots will love the epi-hygro assembly, however.

Your light? "It depends". The HO lights you mention - the lamps are 36" long yeah? The center of the lamps is gonna be a little dimmer than the ends. How tall is the viv? Any fluorescent - but especially the long tubes - is not great with height. I'm wondering if you'll be bright enough. You want good light - strong, and of the appropriate spectrum (enough PAR).

I always suggest this "oldie but still goodie": NEHERP - Vivarium Lighting 101 - Everything you need to know, to grow plants in a live vivarium

While there, see this too:
NEHERP - Moss Slurry Caresheet

I've found the kind of background you're considering, to have great drainage. Like, it dries out well between waterings - essential for many plants, but bad - death, OK? - for starting moss. So it would be most helpful to carry the background all the way into your drainage layer / false bottom, so it can passively wick water up from the dead pool. If you can't do that, you need to mist often. You can't let it dry out if you want to grow moss from slurry. Once you've got a thick coat you can dial back the frequency, and maybe up the duration so you get a good soak / breathe cycle. But in the beginning, you'll need to mist often.

Good luck! Growing moss is the best.
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Old 03-12-2019, 02:01 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Thank you for your helpful answers!

My tank is 90x50x45cm. It will be something about 35''x18''x19 ''.
My lamps are a little more than 33 '' long. Do not know If 2x39w 6500k will be enough for growing moss but It is enough now for other plants. I have space for more If it will be neccesery. I attached a photo of it below. Of course between the tank and a lamps is plexiglass which covers all tank. Because of plexi humidity is always 100%.

Below I also attached my tank concept. What do you think? Of course the tank (because of water part) is not for frogs.
It will be my first time with hygrolon, epiweb and moss mix that's why I want to be sure about everything.

Background will be only on the left side of my tank. I going to use eggcrate which will be shorter on sides because I want to put gravel between glass and eggcrate. On the right side will be water part. I do not know yet what about the filtration system.
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File Type: jpg akwarium koniec.jpg (19.8 KB, 49 views)
File Type: jpg akwarium konstrukcja.jpg (20.8 KB, 36 views)
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

I have a lot of both hygrolon and epiweb that I have not yet used. I've been meaning to do a side by side comparison of the two to test the results. I never thought of using the two together. I look forward to seeing your results.

Only one comment regarding your setup and that is to keep an eye on your acrylic lid. Acrylic has a bad reputation for warping in vivarium conditions due to the humidity. You may want to look into replacing it with glass if you start to experience the warping.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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Of course between the tank and a lamps is plexiglass which covers all tank. Because of plexi humidity is always 100%.
"Of course..."? I'm not sure I understand. If you're going to keep the tank sealed up, that will help keep the moss from drying out. I hope you don't plan on keeping any animals under those conditions though. They require ventilation. Require.

Quote:
I have a lot of both hygrolon and epiweb that I have not yet used. I've been meaning to do a side by side comparison of the two to test the results.
They aren't much alike. As you know, one wicks & also retains water, the other doesn't do either, it's just an inert rooting medium. Hygrolon - the wicker/retainer - is more of a fabric, sort of like a piece of wetsuit. Epiweb - zero wicking - is more like filter media or dish scrubbie.

If you have frequent misting you wouldn't need the wicker. Now, if you keep things that don't want all that much misting (like me - I keep snakes) but you like some moss, wicking (or, dripping from above) is very useful. Also some plants don't want misting either, or they like/need to dry out (more than moss likes to dry out...) between mistings. In such cases having "dry islands" of e.g. cork (or for that matter, epiweb!) adhered to the background, to which you can mount such plants, is very helpful. Between (not under, not atop) the cork you can have a wicker, like hygrolon, if you want moss. Another common wicker/retainer however is sphagnum moss, as in the "cork mosaic method". The best thing I can say about the synthetics is they don't rot or shrink, they are very stable. Some plants don't seem to have a preference, others like one or the other much more.

So your word choice "side by side" is quite apt. Or, you can partner them up in a sandwich, like the OP.

good luck, guys!
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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Originally Posted by jgragg View Post
They aren't much alike. As you know, one wicks & also retains water, the other doesn't do either, it's just an inert rooting medium. Hygrolon - the wicker/retainer - is more of a fabric, sort of like a piece of wetsuit. Epiweb - zero wicking - is more like filter media or dish scrubbie.

If you have frequent misting you wouldn't need the wicker. Now, if you keep things that don't want all that much misting (like me - I keep snakes) but you like some moss, wicking (or, dripping from above) is very useful. Also some plants don't want misting either, or they like/need to dry out (more than moss likes to dry out...) between mistings. In such cases having "dry islands" of e.g. cork (or for that matter, epiweb!) adhered to the background, to which you can mount such plants, is very helpful. Between (not under, not atop) the cork you can have a wicker, like hygrolon, if you want moss. Another common wicker/retainer however is sphagnum moss, as in the "cork mosaic method". The best thing I can say about the synthetics is they don't rot or shrink, they are very stable. Some plants don't seem to have a preference, others like one or the other much more.

So your word choice "side by side" is quite apt. Or, you can partner them up in a sandwich, like the OP.

good luck, guys!
I appreciate you sharing your experience. Now I may need to start a third tank with the sandwich method. I am very intrigued. Have you used both products in a dart frog environment, or just with snakes?

I would question you on the ability of epiweb to hold water though. I have some orchids mounted to the stuff. And it definitely holds water. I can squeeze it hours later and it still holds water through capillary action. And where there is capillary action, there is by definition wicking ability. Maybe not as great as hygrolon, but it can wick, though I have yet to use it in an application where it would have the ability to wick.

You are probably right though, epiweb on its own is probably not a suitable media for growing moss on its own. We shall see though.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Quote:
Have you used both products in a dart frog environment, or just with snakes?
Only snakes. I've never kept a dart frog. My last captive frog was a White's back in the 90's. That was pretty much the end of keeping bug-eaters for me. Yuck. Ha ha ha. Anyway, yeah only snakes, but I've experimented extensively.

Quote:
And it definitely holds water. I can squeeze it hours later and it still holds water through capillary action.
Hmm. I'm not sure it's capillary action as much as plain old cohesion. Heck, steel wool will retain a bit of water if you nail it to a board and pour water over it. You could fling out a bit of that water hours later, if there was no wind and the humidity was pretty high.

You could probably make a thick moss slurry with clay (and perhaps a little milled sphagnum?) watered down to a runny pancake batter consistency, then dunk your epiweb into that. The clay would stick to the filaments and provide a modicum of moisture retention and adhesion for the moss propagules. And a fine mist wouldn't wash it off. Something to consider?

Anyway, please, explore like mad and share your experiences! Most of us - I, certainly - are here to share and learn.

cheers
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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Originally Posted by jgragg View Post
Only snakes. I've never kept a dart frog. My last captive frog was a White's back in the 90's. That was pretty much the end of keeping bug-eaters for me. Yuck. Ha ha ha. Anyway, yeah only snakes, but I've experimented extensively.



Hmm. I'm not sure it's capillary action as much as plain old cohesion. Heck, steel wool will retain a bit of water if you nail it to a board and pour water over it. You could fling out a bit of that water hours later, if there was no wind and the humidity was pretty high.

You could probably make a thick moss slurry with clay (and perhaps a little milled sphagnum?) watered down to a runny pancake batter consistency, then dunk your epiweb into that. The clay would stick to the filaments and provide a modicum of moisture retention and adhesion for the moss propagules. And a fine mist wouldn't wash it off. Something to consider?

Anyway, please, explore like mad and share your experiences! Most of us - I, certainly - are here to share and learn.

cheers
I feel the same way about snakes haha. Had them for many years before I decided I much prefer dealing with fruit flies.

You are absolutely right, I was looking for the word cohesion. I goofed on that for sure.

And finally I appreciate the ideas for getting moss to grow on epiweb. I am not as gung ho on moss as I am most other plants, but little croppings here and there are cool. I'm not looking for large "lawns" of moss. Just as an accent.
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Old 03-15-2019, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Moss mix sometimes work and sometimes fail with same setup.
Hygrolon and Epiweb are great but I prefere to use java moss on these materials for good results.
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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All that said, moss really, really does better on organic substrates. But you can get results - slower ones - on the synthetics..
I have a question about this and would love some of your guys' opinions.

I am doing a plant-only viv and was planning on doing the whole bottom with matala covered in hygrolon (no substrate) to try to grow mosses.

Does Moss really grow better on organics rather than hygrolon?? Would I be better off just stuffing sphagnum directly into the top of the matala and trying grow moss on that instead?
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Old 06-22-2019, 03:50 AM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Greetings,

Moss will grow better on organic substrates and sphagnum is not as good for moss growth as ABG, tree fern panels, cork or even leaves. The breakdown of organic substrate supplies nutrients to the moss that seems to benefit them grealt when compared to hygrolon or epiwed.

An insert but moist substrate like hygrolon could potentially grow moss well if you used a dilute fertilizer - but mosses can be sensitive to over-feeding and salt buildup so it's harder to strike the right balance. And you would only want to consider watering with dilute fertilizer if you have a draining false bottom - otherwise you will guarantee salt buildup over time.

I get lush grow moss over the wetter spots of my oak-leaf substrate top layer on just the leaves themselves - it doesn't require a soil-like substrate at all.
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Old 06-22-2019, 10:58 AM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Thanks for the reply!

Hmm, I have read so much about people growing moss on hygrolon, but now I am rethinking that idea for the hygrolon/moss lawn over a matala drainage layer.

Maybe I will just try to stuff sphagnum into the top layer of matala, maybe add a little ABG or ground up peat/tree fern panel to it before planting spores or laying down some pillow moss, then just keep the whole thing damp with misting.

Has anyone tried something like this before?
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Old 06-22-2019, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

One of my previous vivs used hygrolon and epiwqeb over a large tree structure also built of non-organic materials. I used a moss mix to start moss on the hygrolon and it eventually grew over the hygrolon but not especially thickly. Over time I added a few real wood branches anchored to the artificial tree trunk.

The difference between the speed of spread and the eventual thickness of growth on the branches vs the hygrolon was pretty dramatic. That's why I recommend organic substrates - you can still grow moss on hygrolon but you'll get better growth on organics in my experience.
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Old 06-24-2019, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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The difference between the speed of spread and the eventual thickness of growth on the branches vs the hygrolon was pretty dramatic. That's why I recommend organic substrates - you can still grow moss on hygrolon but you'll get better growth on organics in my experience.
Exactly. "Faster, thicker, better." Also I think, more diverse - I have found a few moss taxa do pretty well on hygrolon, but not nearly as many kinds as do well on organics.

Quote:
was planning on doing the whole bottom with matala covered in hygrolon (no substrate) to try to grow mosses.
You could experiment a little, by having little shallow pockets or zones of e.g. fine orchid bark, ABG, crumbled twigs/sticks, or chopped leaf litter sitting atop your hygrolon. I.e., keep some bare hygrolon areas, don't bury all - not even most - of it in organics. Some moss will grow on the hygrolon, some will grow on the organics. See what happens, and adjust to taste. Talk is cheap, experience costs you some but is priceless. Get started, get learning.

good luck!
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Old 06-29-2019, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

I can confirm that moss mix does grow on hygrolon but not very quickly and not as diversely as some may prefer. I have a plant only Viv that is set up similar to how you are proposing-
Left wall is made of hygrolon topped filter foam that extends down to ground to create a "Moss Frame" for an island of ABG mix. Hygrolon dips into false bottom to help keep moist.

From my experience, the moss mix took a couple months to really get established with some green growth on hygrolon. The moss that did pop up is primarily sphagnum moss. The moss on the vertical portion of hygrolon has not grown as well as the moss thats closer to the false bottom water reservoir. It is harder to keep the wall wet and I would think a misting system would help, but for now i am misting twice daily.

The thing that helped the moss growth most was weekly to bi-weekly fertilizing. After I started using a diluted 2-2-2 organic fertilizer, moss growth really took off a got a lot denser.

See attached photos to see my hygrolon hardscape set up with moss mix and then the 5 month progress.

EDIT: I should note that i used just normal aquarium filter foam and not epiweb to mount the hygrolon. It's cheaper
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Old 07-01-2019, 07:47 AM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Epiweb holds water droplets in it's fiber mesh until those drops become too big and gravity takes over.

Hygrolon takes any moisture that it comes into contact with and maximally disperses it -it's actually a drying substrate unless it's completely saturated. Hyrolon is a very specific tool for a few instances but it's not a general purpose / do everything background material.

In my opinion cork stuffed n wedged with sphag seems to be the best do all, be everything background invented thus far.

But if the choice is between Hygro n Epi, the Epiweb is the way to be going . . . but it's a sin none the less
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Old 07-01-2019, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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In my opinion cork stuffed n wedged with sphag seems to be the best do all, be everything background invented thus far.
I completely agree.
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Old 07-01-2019, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chin_monster View Post
In my opinion cork stuffed n wedged with sphag seems to be the best do all, be everything background invented thus far.
Quote:
I completely agree.
Me too. Cork mosaic is extremely versatile, it looks good, lasts a long long time, and is easy to maintain / repair / modify if you need to. It works GREAT! for drip walling, and can also get by with just misting. No need to have it wick up from the false bottom.

good luck!
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

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Hygrolon takes any moisture that it comes into contact with and maximally disperses it -it's actually a drying substrate unless it's completely saturated.
I'm not sure I understand this statement, and I'm probably actually misunderstanding it, but hygrolon definitely seems to absorb water that comes into physical contact with it. It doesn't just wick up water, but it absorbs it when sprayed by it and holds onto it until it dries out, either because there's no more water to wick up or there's no water being sprayed onto it.

This isn't an argument that hygrolon is a do-all growing surface, but it does seem like some non-wicking uses --- like on branches as something for moss, etc. to grow on when they wouldn't otherwise attach --- are plenty well done with hygrolon.
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Old 08-25-2019, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Basically whatís being said is that if you take a single drop of water and drop it on hygrolon, hygrolon is going to equally spread that drop out as far as it can. Assuming that the surface area of the hygrolon is larger than that droplet of water can cover, this is going to result in it drying or in a way, kinda, almost, omitting that droplet of water. I believe this is what he meant.

That being said, you would have to consistently keep hygrolon wet in order for it to be consistently moist or saturated. This would be because as a specific point starts to dry, that point would also be pulling moisture from the more damp parts of the material that surround it, in turn those points pull from more damp points around them and so on and so on. This is going to cause the hygrolon to potentially dry equally as well.

I havenít personally used hygrolon so I canít really get too specific but, Iím sure this is what he means. While it equally distributes water through itself, itís also going to inherently cause the process of drying to be equal as well. If that makes sense.


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Old 08-25-2019, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Yes, that makes sense. I didn't know if he meant that it disperses water as its hit with it, instead of absorbing it. I also didn't really understand what he meant by "drying substrate" --- every substrate dries, and dries differently, so that I didn't see why there was a specific division between "drying" and "non-drying".

I don't see a fundamental difference in hygrolon versus other plant-growing substrates or materials, just a difference in the degrees to which they hold water and dry out. So for the purposes of holding water, a strip of hygrolon will hold water just as well as another medium (like LFS) if it's hit with mist often enough. (Obviously, LFS is better at holding water than hygrolon. But if it's hit with water enough, hygrolon will hold water 100% of the time --- which is the same upper limit for LFS, because nothing can be moist more than 100% of the time.)

Let me know if that doesn't make sense, I'm having trouble making my thoughts articulate.

And, of course, that second paragraph was referring to hygrolon's water-related properties, not to everything else. I know that hygrolon isn't as good at growing moss as many other substances, for instance.
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Old 08-26-2019, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Hygrolon and epiweb background

Well, letís look at the definition of substrate, substrate by definition; a layer, surface or, material that an organism lives, grows or, obtains nourishment. In our hobby; substrate is most commonly referred to as the layer/s above our drainage layer right? But technically we can even consider our sticks as substrate for epiphytes when they are mounted to said sticks.

To call hygrolon a, Ďdrying substrateí, has to be a direct mention toward how it disperses water throughout its area and continues to do so as it dries. I personally want to compare to osmosis or how a black t shirt gets warmer in the sun than a white t shirt. Whatís less known in that respect is that the black t shirt also omits more heat energy than the white t shirt. Thatís probably over generalizing but, Iím sure the point is understood.



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