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-   -   Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying? (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/90072-rambala-vs-guarumo-identifying.html)

thedude 12-06-2012 02:21 AM

Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
I asked this last time and it was never answered. How are the Rambala you're offering different from the Guarumo you offered before? They look exactly like them and don't look anything like pictures of Rambala found everywhere else.

Rambala:
http://www.dendrobase.de/fotos/Oopha...rambala_to.jpg

Guarumo:
http://www.dendrobase.de/fotos/Oopha...to_guarumo.jpg

TerraFerma 12-06-2012 03:24 AM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
You have to scroll 2/3's the way down the page - but the Rambala here look more or less like the Rambala's he has pictured. Not an exact match IMO, but very close.

Oophaga pumilio Morphguide

TerraFerma 12-06-2012 05:17 AM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Late edit...the Guaramo on TE do look very similar to Rambala. I'm guessing the Rambala link you put up linked to the wrong pics.

thedude 12-06-2012 01:14 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TerraFerma (Post 794808)
Late edit...the Guaramo on TE do look very similar to Rambala. I'm guessing the Rambala link you put up linked to the wrong pics.

Nope, that is the correct picture. That morph guide you posted is the ONLY other source that shows Rambala that look like that, and they have proven several times that they are not a reliable source. Every where else they look exactly like the one I posted. There are more here: www.DendroBase.de

motydesign 12-06-2012 02:01 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
with that being said, from your own site these could be guabo
http://www.dendrobase.de/fotos/Oopha...iquiGrande.jpg unfortunately well never know and just have to call them what they were imported as 2012 rambala. even though i do tend to side with them "looking" more like Guaramo.

Azurel 12-06-2012 02:02 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude (Post 794851)
Nope, that is the correct picture. That morph guide you posted is the ONLY other source that shows Rambala that look like that, and they have proven several times that they are not a reliable source. Every where else they look exactly like the one I posted. There are more here: www.DendroBase.de

Hey Adam

This link shows Rambala like those that SNDF have posted.....
Interspecific and intraspecific views of color signals in the strawberry poison frog Dendrobates pumilio

hylahill 12-06-2012 03:34 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
First and foremost, let me say that the only thing I know for sure is that these frogs are beautiful!

I do not think accepting the nomenclature of the frog as stated by the importer is the proper way to address this issue. Maintaining factual information pertaining to the lineage of the plant/animal used in breeding is hugely important to many, and rightly so. No one has a problem with a dog that is a ' mutt' vs. an AKC accepted breed, but misidentify or imply that one is the other, and problems develop.

In my business (landscape) it is unbelievable how many professional nurseries put out misinformation regarding,or wrongly identifying, species and cultivars, etc. There are sources of information that we do have, however, that cut through all of this and become our 'bibles', and are widely regarded in the industry as being such.

As this color morph has obviously been identified as two different types of pumilio in the literature, and therefore, most likely is misidentified in at least two places, which source carries the most merit? What is the 'bible'? I am not the one to judge that, but others here are certainly qualified to do so.

I will leave to others to decide which to use but, in my opinion, if a name is to be used, it damn well better be the right one. For me, for now, 'beautiful' will suffice.

Cliff

motydesign 12-06-2012 04:26 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Cliff, comparing these morphs to plants isnt a fair comparison. If you have ever been to these frog's habitat you will find that some of these mainland morph roll over areas and are not as easily defined as the island morphs. Rambala vs Guarumo is A and B respectively (this is also subjective to what you call the area, and once again we fall back to GPS data needed for imports...thatll never happen)
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"
2012 Rambala is the right name, this also insures these are not to be bred with old line guarumos.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j9...bug333/RvG.jpg

thedude 12-06-2012 09:38 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by motydesign (Post 794863)
with that being said, from your own site these could be guabo
http://www.dendrobase.de/fotos/Oopha...iquiGrande.jpg

Not really, those are much duller with a different pattern...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azurel (Post 794864)
Hey Adam

This link shows Rambala like those that SNDF have posted.....
Interspecific and intraspecific views of color signals in the strawberry poison frog Dendrobates pumilio

Thanks, that is a reliable source. Chances are, these 2 populations are very close to each other and some people call them Rambala and some call them Guarumo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by motydesign (Post 794919)
Cliff, comparing these morphs to plants isnt a fair comparison. If you have ever been to these frog's habitat you will find that some of these mainland morph roll over areas and are not as easily defined as the island morphs. Rambala vs Guarumo is A and B respectively (this is also subjective to what you call the area, and once again we fall back to GPS data needed for imports...thatll never happen)
2012 Rambala is the right name, this also insures these are not to be bred with old line guarumos.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j9...bug333/RvG.jpg

Nice job with the map. It really says to me exactly what I said above though, I'm sure these are the same frogs with different names. Those 2 locations are pretty close to each other. Too bad it's just another thing we will never know for sure.

hylahill 12-06-2012 11:08 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
I wouldn't necessarily agree that it isn't a fair comparison as the same thing can happen in all types of flora and fauna, island vs. mainland etc. This issue is by no means unique to frogs.

Again, I feel it is important that, if a name is to be used, it should be accurate. With your comments and maps, you in fact go a long way towards providing the kind of information that is needed to identify, define, and differentiate these issues. Obviously, DNA rules the roost here.

The frogs in the photo most likely aren't both-they are either one or the other. I think there is also a good chance Adam is right and they, are in fact, all the same frog morph. I agree with your assessment that, by organizing and identifying frogs to a very specific GPS location, you will at least ensure that you are dealing with the same populations (if that is what you want to do) in the future for breeding or otherwise. Regardless of their name!

Cliff

sports_doc 12-07-2012 12:42 AM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Those are Guarumo

Woodsman 12-07-2012 01:03 AM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Given that the parents of these captive bred frogs are carefully maintained in breeding facilities in Panama, I would think it would be an easy task to have a look at the records from these breeding facilities to determine exactly where the parent frogs were collected from the wild.

Richard.

CAPTAIN RON 12-07-2012 04:19 AM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
:confused::confused::o:o:o:o:D:D;)

Ed 12-07-2012 04:24 AM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Just a random thought... All of this discussion isn't going to mean much when the list of classifieds eventually gets purged... It may be a good idea to at least copy the discussion over to another section so it survives for a longer period....

Some comments

Ed

thedude 12-07-2012 06:05 AM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed (Post 795166)
Just a random thought... All of this discussion isn't going to mean much when the list of classifieds eventually gets purged... It may be a good idea to at least copy the discussion over to another section so it survives for a longer period....

Some comments

Ed

Good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sports_doc (Post 795115)
Those are Guarumo

Shawn, is this just your opinion based on how they look or something else? Also, any chance you can make the above happen?

Roadrunner 12-07-2012 12:11 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
I thought this wasn't the place for discussions such as these. Last time i did it it got erased.

thedude 12-07-2012 12:30 PM

Re: SNDF-Pumilio pairs available
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frogfarm (Post 795205)
I thought this wasn't the place for discussions such as these. Last time i did it it got erased.

I asked a question about their product, had they answered, the discussion wouldn't have occurred here.

Last time I did it though, I got an infraction.

zBrinks 12-07-2012 01:01 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
I moved posts from the classified ad to this thread, so the information would not be lost. Please remember that classified ads are not the place for discussions.

Azurel 12-07-2012 01:17 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zBrinks (Post 795218)
I moved posts from the classified ad to this thread, so the information would not be lost. Please remember that classified ads are not the place for discussions.

Thanks Zach.... I was doing it the hard way....


Back to topic:

In that link I posted they specificlly say that the frog they posted as Ramabala which is identical to the one posted by SNDF was collected in/by Ramabala for the reseach paper...Could it be they are a mixed local that does not interbreed thus both could infact be either or, based on where it is collected?

thedude 12-07-2012 02:17 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azurel (Post 795223)
Thanks Zach.... I was doing it the hard way....


Back to topic:

In that link I posted they specificlly say that the frog they posted as Ramabala which is identical to the one posted by SNDF was collected in/by Ramabala for the reseach paper...Could it be they are a mixed local that does not interbreed thus both could infact be either or, based on where it is collected?

Completely possible. Perhaps they are separated by a river. That was the case with Guarumo and Rio Branco wasn't it?

pumilio are always so confusing...

Azurel 12-07-2012 03:37 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude (Post 795233)
Completely possible. Perhaps they are separated by a river. That was the case with Guarumo and Rio Branco wasn't it?

pumilio are always so confusing...

From what I can find on maps on the internet is Rambala is south of Rio Guarumo by about 2 miles....They are both on the same side of the river as well....Who knows....

Trying to wrap your head around pumilio will make you go nuts....truth!

Spaff 12-07-2012 04:18 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
I remember reading this thread from a few years back where there was confusion between what was Rambala and Rio Branco. Apparently Dr. Summers ID'ed this one as a Rambala:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/mem...sion-sets.html

I know the pictures don't work, but maybe Ed P. has them around somewhere still.

Ed 12-08-2012 04:02 AM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azurel (Post 795254)
From what I can find on maps on the internet is Rambala is south of Rio Guarumo by about 2 miles....They are both on the same side of the river as well....Who knows....

Any reason to suspect that they aren't a connected population with a zone of intergradation? Pumilio over a wide range are highly polymorphic with local selection and mate choice pressures driving local pattern fixation so it isn't unreasonable to think that you could have varying patterns from opposite ends of a larger connected population.

Some comments

Ed

thedude 12-08-2012 06:51 AM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed (Post 795400)
Any reason to suspect that they aren't a connected population with a zone of intergradation? Pumilio over a wide range are highly polymorphic with local selection and mate choice pressures driving local pattern fixation so it isn't unreasonable to think that you could have varying patterns from opposite ends of a larger connected population.

Some comments

Ed

I'm not disagreeing with you but the 2 morphs look nothing alike and we haven't seen any pictures of frogs that look like an integration between the 2. I think it is much more likely that they both live near Rambala (which we know now) and they are somehow separated from each other. A river, urbanization, agriculture, etc.

Azurel 12-08-2012 01:01 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed (Post 795400)
Any reason to suspect that they aren't a connected population with a zone of intergradation? Pumilio over a wide range are highly polymorphic with local selection and mate choice pressures driving local pattern fixation so it isn't unreasonable to think that you could have varying patterns from opposite ends of a larger connected population.

Some comments

Ed

I don't doubt it one bit to be honest...Based on the relatively close location of the two frogs respective location of collection I wouldn't doubt the population doesn't or isn't connected some how.

Could it be that there are two groups of collectors that call each frog the other name? Don't know just throwing that out there...

brad0608 12-08-2012 03:49 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
There seems to be sooooo much knowledge on the forums, why is there not a definitive reference guide compiling all known information on all relevent subjects. It would probably be a 20 volume set but I think something is needed. There is a Pumilio morph guide with no real data. Why is there always peanut butter no jelly, kool-aid no sugar. Cant those with the most experience do something for the greater good. I know the field is changing all the time, as other fields do, thats why the DSM 5 is coming out. Im sick of checking every tributary and backwater of the internet searching for info that for all I know is not credible.

Ed 12-08-2012 06:44 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thedude (Post 795423)
I'm not disagreeing with you but the 2 morphs look nothing alike and we haven't seen any pictures of frogs that look like an integration between the 2. I think it is much more likely that they both live near Rambala (which we know now) and they are somehow separated from each other. A river, urbanization, agriculture, etc.

Urbanization, or agriculture is unlikely to have seperated the populations long enough to account for such divergence particularly since pumilio behave like a ruderal species. Claiming that they can't be connected because there is such a large pattern change isn't really acceptable since we already know of at least one polymorphic populations that can range from no spotting to lots of spotting, from red to orange, to yellow to green all in one location......

There also doesn't have to be intergraded patterning.. for example, within timber rattlesnakes you don't get intergraded patterns between canebrakes and northern timbers.... The transition is abrupt and the populations are (were) continous..... So you can't dismiss it so quickly based on pattern alone.

This will probably not be settled until someone puts boots on the ground and does a transect survey....

Some comments

Ed

Ed 12-08-2012 06:46 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azurel (Post 795441)

Could it be that there are two groups of collectors that call each frog the other name? Don't know just throwing that out there...

This is possible and as I noted above, probably not going to be resolved until we get boots on the ground.

Ed

motydesign 12-08-2012 09:28 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed (Post 795516)
.

This will probably not be settled until someone puts boots on the ground and does a transect survey....

Some comments

Ed

done, I'll head out there may 17-26th And figure this out a bit better, I needed a good reason to go back.

Manuran 12-14-2012 10:03 PM

Re: Rambala vs. Guarumo identifying?
 
If I can add, I think some of the difficulty here is just that there is no naming convention.
In the case of red Rambala pumilio, they are using the name of a town to identify a population and while there may be a small pocket hidden somewhere, even going back 20 years the frogs did not occur in the town itself, but in the hills to the ESE of town. To the west of Rambala is the Rio Guarumo to the South of Rambala is the town of Guarumo. Historically (and possibly to this day), maybe the yellow frogs occurred fairly close to the town of Rambala. I know that there were populations of a similar looking yellow frog that occurred a fair ways away to the south of Guarumo (and therefore much higher in elevation), so it wouldn't be a stretch that it also occurred a little to the north. As an example, the green Chiriqui Grande pumilio occurs between Chiriqui Grande and Rambala, so using either name would be just as accurate or inaccurate.
I haven't been there looking at pumilios for many, many years and I would guess that the populations are even more fragmented and maybe more confusing now. Anyway, hope this helps a little.

Motydesign, I hope you get there again. It would be interesting to hear what it is like there now.


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