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Old 11-12-2012, 04:58 PM
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Default Gold Dust Basti's

Just got my first clutch from 1 of my Gold Dust Basti pairs, 4 eggs, it will be interesting to see if they are good as the pair does not seem to pay attention in one another.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Are both male and female gold dust bastis? I've heard before that it's not ideal to pair two gold dusts together because it was a recessive trait and wouldn't produce healthy froglets (if I remember correctly). Is there any truth to this?

I have a pair that's a gold dust female and a male that was labeled as a gold dust, but he's more of a yellow/orange and it had me thinking... No eggs from mine yet.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:00 PM
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Good looking frog Mark...

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Old 11-12-2012, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Nice..I am next.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

I have to retract that not interested in each other statement....man they are finally courting up a storm, looks like clutch #2 is imminent.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Benson View Post
Are both male and female gold dust bastis? I've heard before that it's not ideal to pair two gold dusts together because it was a recessive trait and wouldn't produce healthy froglets (if I remember correctly). Is there any truth to this?

I have a pair that's a gold dust female and a male that was labeled as a gold dust, but he's more of a yellow/orange and it had me thinking... No eggs from mine yet.
I've never heard that and I'm not even sure it makes any sense. First, if it is a recessive trait, then both parents are already homozygous for the trait and they are ok. Why wouldn't the babies be OK. Second, what would skin color have to do with being healthy unless there was some sort of linked gene that was lethal in which case reason #1 comes into play again. It would be more reasonable if Gold dust was a dominant gene but not very common in the population. If that were the case orange frogs would be gg and Gold Dust would be Gg, but GG would be lethal for some reason.
With the variety of basti colors, and shades within those colors, it seems more likely that color is probably a multi-gene trait.

I have a gold dust female and a sort of very light orange/gold male with brown spots and they have produced several healthy babies.
Pic is my male.
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File Type: jpg BastiGoldMale.jpg (58.6 KB, 151 views)
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:19 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Thanks Phil, I'm pretty familiar with a Punnett square I'm not sure your response really makes that much sense either, I understand both parents have the trait, but you saying that they are "ok" with it doesn't really apply to the situation. Unless of course their parents were also both gold dust bastis. In this case we are using skin color as the recessive trait....

I recieved this e-mail from Rich Frye, and is why I was questioning this, as I'm in a similar boat.

"Hi Derek,
You can call me Rich , thanks.
At this time I don't think I will let any extra bastis go. I'm holding back for awhile. I assume you would not want another gold dust? Rather something orange or so, so as to not breed recessive to recessive? I do have two extra females, one gold dust and one red, but I am waiting to see how other offspring sex out. It's possible if I am really female heavy I could let one go. But I'd not sell the gold dust, for the reason expressed.

Rich Frye"


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Last edited by Derek Benson; 11-13-2012 at 02:21 AM. Reason: Adding pictures adds credibility, right..?
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

How has the white/cream color been determined to be recessive? The parents that my 4 came from seem to produce the white/cream quite a bit along with red,orange but to a lesser degree.

I would think in a population that has all the colors mixed there would be cream on cream gold dust breeding in the wild without issue....Good question see as how I have 2 of each and one is calling. I would hate to pair up a pair from the 4 and have issues.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:42 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

I doubt Basti colors are the result of simple Mendelian dominance and recessiveness. If that were the case, only gold dust x gold dust pairings would result in gold dust offspring. I haven't really looked into it, but has someone with a red/orange x gold dust pair ever produced gold dust froglets?
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:06 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

The pair my group came from are Gold Dust x Gold Dust.....
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Yes the pair that I had gold dust x gold dust gave me 7/10 gold dusts with the 3 being red/orangeish
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

From what JP says the red ones are part of the same population but as blasphemous as this is I would suspect what Rich Fire said is incorrect. There are no issues with pairing up 2 GD's, at least no health issues associated with doing that. Perhaps Mr Fire can come here and explain the info his extensive DNA analysis gave him.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Benson View Post
Thanks Phil, I'm pretty familiar with a Punnett square I'm not sure your response really makes that much sense either, I understand both parents have the trait, but you saying that they are "ok" with it doesn't really apply to the situation. Unless of course their parents were also both gold dust bastis. In this case we are using skin color as the recessive trait....

I recieved this e-mail from Rich Frye, and is why I was questioning this, as I'm in a similar boat.

"Hi Derek,
You can call me Rich , thanks.
At this time I don't think I will let any extra bastis go. I'm holding back for awhile. I assume you would not want another gold dust? Rather something orange or so, so as to not breed recessive to recessive? I do have two extra females, one gold dust and one red, but I am waiting to see how other offspring sex out. It's possible if I am really female heavy I could let one go. But I'd not sell the gold dust, for the reason expressed.

Rich Frye"
Saying you shouldn't breed Gold dust to gold dust because they have a recessive trait is like saying two blue eyed people shouldn't have babies because they both have a recessive trait. If you show a recessive trait it can't get any more recessive than what you already have.
Maybe Rich was saying that you personally might not want to mix gold dust with gold dust because they will only produce gold dust, whereas if you mix the gold dust with an orange, you might get a variety of colors. The quote you gave seems incomplete. If we knew your original question, Rich's statement might make more sense.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by markpulawski View Post
From what JP says the red ones are part of the same population but as blasphemous as this is I would suspect what Rich Fire said is incorrect. There are no issues with pairing up 2 GD's, at least no health issues associated with doing that. Perhaps Mr Fire can come here and explain the info his extensive DNA analysis gave him.
I agree. Ideally, it's probably best to mix the colors in order to maximize the genetic diversity, but I don't see anything wrong or unhealthy about a gold dust pairing. Also, there's no way gold dust are recessive since pairs produce red/orange offspring. Not to mention all the other colors that can pop up as well...
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:38 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

I could see how some recessive traits have disadvantages either for survival or breeding in the wild, but it would not seem to affect their health.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

I have no credible genetic training (some would say in anything, ); however, it seems that breeding closely related frogs to one another would be no more problemmatic than breeding two unrelated Gold Dust frogs, and this is done all the time, due to limited stock, in most cases. I know that some folks would view breeding two Gold Dust frogs as a form of line breeding, but, if two WC frogs, that would have access to one another in the wild, are bred together, I don't see where there are any more risks than breeding any other two WC frogs.

Now, as long as Mark is breeding his to frogs with ONE ANOTHER and not actually BREEDING with his frogs, the resulting offspring should be okay.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Oops, almost forget. That last message was:

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Old 11-13-2012, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Great reasoning behind this in the thread. Sorry to clutter up Mark's thread on his gorgeous bastis. Back to the egg/tad/froglet progression pictures!

As far as the original e-mail to Rich, it was about me having two male bastis, one gold dust one orange, and was in search of females for them. I was curious why he would have mentioned to not breed the two gold dust together and I believe I have my answer, thanks again.
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Old 11-15-2012, 09:43 PM
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Derek I assume Mr Fried said that to enhance his business, since he is in this to make $$ as purely a business as opposed to you and I being hobbyists he has a different perspective. No problem on the comments, the good news the eggs are developing.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

I took this picture a couple of days ago, lots of movement in the eggs now.

Here is the male

And tonights picture, there is another clutch in the tank but can't get to it.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Congrats Mark.... Can't wait till my group is old enough I have a caller though so they should be close. Will be interesting to see what colors you get....
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:58 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Several tads transported now, it will be interesting to see what type of froglets are produced. I hear there is talk that the GD are a small % of this population, I wonder if that takes into account the fact that the GD have been cherry picked out of this population many times severely impacting how many would be present at any given time? Very likely not but it certainly merits discussion.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:02 AM
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First dips on any orange...
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:03 AM
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Any activity with your other Bastis?
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markpulawski View Post
Several tads transported now, it will be interesting to see what type of froglets are produced. I hear there is talk that the GD are a small % of this population, I wonder if that takes into account the fact that the GD have been cherry picked out of this population many times severely impacting how many would be present at any given time? Very likely not but it certainly merits discussion.
Congrats on them being transported....I still cannot find any research on the % of the color breakdown of the population... I bet you get a mix as others have in the same situation.

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Bill yes the others pop out 1 or 2 babies every 3 months or so. As for the GD I am told they are currently about 20% of the population, but no comment about how cherry picking them out of this population may have affected their current numbers at this locale.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:08 PM
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So I was told that collecting the numbers that have come in have very likely had little to no impact on the overall population of this locale, so 20% of the population being GD is a pretty accurate estimate. So 1 in 5 being a GD would make me think there is a good chance these could and do pair up in the wild on a regular basis, so much for assumption and conjecture.
This info came from JP (MonarchMan) who has a pretty good handle on Pumilio info, thanks for the input JP.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:24 PM
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So I was told that collecting the numbers that have come in have very likely had little to no impact on the overall population of this locale, so 20% of the population being GD is a pretty accurate estimate. So 1 in 5 being a GD would make me think there is a good chance these could and do pair up in the wild on a regular basis, so much for assumption and conjecture.
This info came from JP (MonarchMan) who has a pretty good handle on Pumilio info, thanks for the input JP.
That is good to know....20% is far larger then the 2% that was being tossed around. With a larger percentage of the population I would assume/expect that GDxGD would happen as well.... Thanks to JP for chiming in on this....
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:09 PM
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That is good to know....20% is far larger then the 2% that was being tossed around. With a larger percentage of the population I would assume/expect that GDxGD would happen as well.... Thanks to JP for chiming in on this....
Really someone suggested 2%, that would be 100 frogs out of 5,000, so the entire population of this color morph in this locale has been collected several times over in the last 10 years? I would say 2% is a rediculous suggestion but even 20% would warrant a good mix of the colors....I may try and do that with my next pair.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:45 AM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Just to clarify my stance a bit, when I refer to GD it would mean any of this population that is obviously not red or orange/red. Green dust as some call them, white, yellow or gold would to me all be considered GD for lack of a better term, my male a greenish cast to it and the female is gold in color. I have not seen a true white for years, those would be a tiny fraction of the population (at least basd on those that have shown up in imports) but the others seem to be grades of color ranging from greenish cast through gold/yellow, I had assumed all would lump these into the GD description.
So if I say 20% of the population is GD it would mean 20% are not the red or orange/red frogs of this population, I am sure that's what JP told me and if that is incorrect I would hope he would come to this thread and comment. We would all appreciate comments from someone that has been to an area and has first hand knowledge of this locale.

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Old 11-28-2012, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Sorry, I would have chimed in earlier, but I didn't see this thread until now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpulawski View Post
Just to clarify my stance a bit, when I refer to GD it would mean any of this population that is obviously not red or orange/red. Green dust as some call them, white, yellow or gold would to me all be considered GD for lack of a better term, my male a greenish cast to it and the female is gold in color. I have not seen a true white for years, those would be a tiny fraction of the population (at least basd on those that have shown up in imports) but the others seem to be grades of color ranging from greenish cast through gold/yellow, I had assumed all would lump these into the GD description.
So if I say 20% of the population is GD it would mean 20% are not the red or orange/red frogs of this population, I am sure that's what JP told me and if that is incorrect I would hope he would come to this thread and comment. We would all appreciate comments from someone that has been to an area and has first hand knowledge of this locale.
I think my comment was a little mistaken. I think that 20% of the population is non-red/orange, which includes the Gold Dust individuals. But it all includes green dust, blue, white, whatever. My apologies if that did not come across. Of the gold dusts, I would guess that they make up between 5% and 10% of the population.

I personally don't like these arbitrary terms like gold dust and green dust because at what point does a frog no longer become a gold dust? Is there a painter's pallet people use to say "yep, this is a gold dust" or "nope, this has a little too much orange, so it falls in the peach category?" It's difficult to discern such clear names with what we actually see in the population.

Now, to color genetics, I suspect that color in Bastimentos (and likely throughout all pumilio) is a result of additive traits, not simple Mendelian dominance patterns, which would explain why we see a range of colors in Bastimentos, not two different colors. Rich is likely right in that gold dust is the result of recessive alleles, but there are likely many loci involved in the determination of color, so they have many recessive loci. That alone is not a problem, but it is possible that these recessive loci can be linked to other maladaptive traits (this, of course, is just conjecture at this point). There is risk to a continued breeding program of like-to-like where you lose heterozygosity. The same risk can be said to happen between red and red. You increase the chance for homozygosity, especially over long periods of time. Mixing stuff up is the best option for the genetic health of your captive population, and if you truly randomly mix stuff up, 5-10% of the time, you should get "Gold Dust."
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:41 PM
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Thanks JP for sharing your thoughts on the subject.

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Old 11-28-2012, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

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Sorry, I would have chimed in earlier, but I didn't see this thread until now.





Now, to color genetics, I suspect that color in Bastimentos (and likely throughout all pumilio) is a result of additive traits, not simple Mendelian dominance patterns, which would explain why we see a range of colors in Bastimentos, not two different colors. Rich is likely right in that gold dust is the result of recessive alleles, but there are likely many loci involved in the determination of color, so they have many recessive loci. That alone is not a problem, but it is possible that these recessive loci can be linked to other maladaptive traits (this, of course, is just conjecture at this point). There is risk to a continued breeding program of like-to-like where you lose heterozygosity. The same risk can be said to happen between red and red. You increase the chance for homozygosity, especially over long periods of time. Mixing stuff up is the best option for the genetic health of your captive population, and if you truly randomly mix stuff up, 5-10% of the time, you should get "Gold Dust."
I heard secondhand that Justin Yeager has said that while the Cemetery population is mixed, the frogs on the rest of the island are predominately red/orange.
He suggests (again secondhand info) that if you have two red bastis that you probably should not mix them with other colors because it is likely that they are not from the Cemetery population.
He has hypothesized that the Cemetery population may be a result of people releasing pumilio from other islands (Colon for example) in the area of the cemetery.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

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I heard secondhand that Justin Yeager has said that while the Cemetery population is mixed, the frogs on the rest of the island are predominately red/orange.
He suggests (again secondhand info) that if you have two red bastis that you probably should not mix them with other colors because it is likely that they are not from the Cemetery population.
He has hypothesized that the Cemetery population may be a result of people releasing pumilio from other islands (Colon for example) in the area of the cemetery.
The rest of the island is predominantly red/orange, but there are some unique characteristics to the Cemetery population such as larger spots and polymorphism. There are other populations of pumilio that also exhibit wide polymorphism in one area, but stable phenotype elsewhere on the same landmass. I would agree with him about the red Bastis, but only if you don't know for certain where they come from, as is the general consensus for any pumilio.

Introduction of other morphs is possible, but I think unlikely, mainly do to the prevalence of the polymorphism. It would have had to been an introduction of a lot of frogs to result in the widespread polymorphism seen in the population, or it would have had to have been an old introduction. I doubt that it is the result of introduction for those reasons as well as we see consistent traits otherwise, such as ventral color or leg color (matching dorsal color).

I can't rule that out, but I think it's unlikely.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Thanks JP, I used the term GD to mean anything not considered red or red/orange, varying degrees of yellow, gold, green, white or other oddities to me would fall under the term GD, so saying 20% of the population is GD would be accurate to that end...except for blue ones. Have you seen of the blue type in that locale? But splitting hairs is not my intent here, is that orange or yellow or inbetween, no big deal. But stating all of the non orange red frogs from this area was only 2% of the population is a real stretch for me.
Back to what you are saying, knowing all the frogs come from 1 locale would certainly make is safe to mix them and as you said keep them healthier in the long run, the problem is knowing what locale they do come from. I think it is safe to say if 50 come in and 15 are GD, the 35 red orange likely are from the same population based on certain traits and the collection strategy of the exporter.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpulawski View Post
.............
Back to what you are saying, knowing all the frogs come from 1 locale would certainly make is safe to mix them and as you said keep them healthier in the long run, the problem is knowing what locale they do come from. I think it is safe to say if 50 come in and 15 are GD, the 35 red orange likely are from the same population based on certain traits and the collection strategy of the exporter.
Just playing devil's advocate... What is stopping the exporter from sending two collecting party's, one to the cemetery area (with an eye out for GDs) and one to another area nearby that has only red/orange frogs.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I have seen many times on this board that if your basti is not "Red frog beach" or "Salt Creek" then it is "Cemetery" and therefore can/should be mixed no matter what the color. My point is that if you have completely red/orange basti, it might not belong to any of the 3 above populations, but instead might be from (for lack of a better word) the "general' Bastimentos Island population. When JP said that breeding Gold Dust to Gold Dust over the long term might cause problems, but so would breeding Red to Red, that threw up a red flag for me. First of all breeding the recessive phenotype vs. breeding the dominant phenotype is not going to give you the same results because the dominant phenotype is going to have some recessive genes in there. Secondly, breeding red to red is what has been happening on most of Bastimentos for a long time. By breeding a red to a non-red you may be mixing locations/populations without knowing it.

I have a pair of these red bastis that in 3 generations with several branches(of which my frogs are one), has never produced a frog that was anything but completely red. Maybe they are cemetery and maybe they are not, but based on what I heard Justin has said, I will never mix their offspring with my cemetery bastis.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Gold Dust Basti's

Few points here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by phender View Post
I guess what I am trying to say is that I have seen many times on this board that if your basti is not "Red frog beach" or "Salt Creek" then it is "Cemetery" and therefore can/should be mixed no matter what the color.
True enough, but I think there are some distinctive characteristics of the Cemetery population such as the spot size.

When JP said that breeding Gold Dust to Gold Dust over the long term might cause problems, but so would breeding Red to Red, that threw up a red flag for me. First of all breeding the recessive phenotype vs. breeding the dominant phenotype is not going to give you the same results because the dominant phenotype is going to have some recessive genes in there. Secondly, breeding red to red is what has been happening on most of Bastimentos for a long time. By breeding a red to a non-red you may be mixing locations/populations without knowing it.[/quote]

There is some misunderstanding here. When I was saying red-to-red, I meant of the Cemetery population. Not any red frog to any red frog. Continually breeding red-to-red increases the homozygosity within the captive population. While red is likely the dominant phenotype (keep in mind we're dealing with gradients here), colors can be linked to other things, such as genetic disorders or diseases. It does not matter that red is dominant or not. Dominance of one trait, generally, has no baring of dominance of another trait. The problem here is increasing homozygosity. If you increase homozygosity, you increase the chances of recessive diseases popping up. This will happen over long-term breeding of gold-to-gold as well as red-to-red.

For the rest of Bastimentos, yes, there have been red to red breeding for a long time, but they have not been artificially restricted like they are in captivity. Breeding of red-to-red in this case is not as problematic because the population likely has high heterozygosity. Just like with the Cemetery population, if you continue breeding, without taking into consideration breeding for heterozygosity, you'll have the same issues as continued breeding of gold-to-gold. It's just readily apparent in the Cemetery population if you're increasing homozygosity because you'd have little to none of one phenotype show up in the offspring.

Quote:
I have a pair of these red bastis that in 3 generations with several branches(of which my frogs are one), has never produced a frog that was anything but completely red. Maybe they are cemetery and maybe they are not, but based on what I heard Justin has said, I will never mix their offspring with my cemetery bastis.
I would agree with what Justin said. If you don't know that they are cemetery frogs, then don't mix them. If you know they are cemetery frogs, then there is no harm, and actually benefit, in including them in your overall population.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by phender View Post
I guess what I am trying to say is that I have seen many times on this board that if your basti is not "Red frog beach" or "Salt Creek" then it is "Cemetery" and therefore can/should be mixed no matter what the color. My point is that if you have completely red/orange basti, it might not belong to any of the 3 above populations, but instead might be from (for lack of a better word) the "general' Bastimentos Island population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchzMan View Post

True enough, but I think there are some distinctive characteristics of the Cemetery population such as the spot size.
You cut my first quote in half, so I don't know what you are saying "True enough" to.

I am not trying to be argumentative. I have never been to Panama. From what I understand, Justin feels that most of the frogs on Bastimentos are red/orange with black spots and white bellies. Within that general population there are at least 3 isolated populations (Cemetery, RFB and Salt Creek). In other words, if you are on Bastimentos but not at one of the above locations, you would still find pumilio and they would all look like generic "red" bastis with a variety of sizes and number of black spots.
Do you agree with what I think Justin said, or is your experience that if it is not RFB or Salt Creek then it has to Cemetery?

Again, I am in no position to judge who is right or wrong. I don't know you or Justin. I am just asking if you would confirm Justin's view of the frog populations or refute it so I don't look like a jack ass every time the topic comes up.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:41 AM
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You cut my first quote in half, so I don't know what you are saying "True enough" to.
Yea, sorry about that, when I noticed, it was too late to edit. I was agreeing with the notion that if it's not a Salt Creek or RFB, it's Cemetery being wrong.

Quote:
I am not trying to be argumentative. I have never been to Panama. From what I understand, Justin feels that most of the frogs on Bastimentos are red/orange with black spots and white bellies. Within that general population there are at least 3 isolated populations (Cemetery, RFB and Salt Creek). In other words, if you are on Bastimentos but not at one of the above locations, you would still find pumilio and they would all look like generic "red" bastis with a variety of sizes and number of black spots.
Do you agree with what I think Justin said, or is your experience that if it is not RFB or Salt Creek then it has to Cemetery?
Justin's being silly because I know he knows there's more to Bastimentos than that (I've been to some of the odd populations with him). This frog also comes from Bastimentos (and if I didn't tell you that, I would bet you'd say it's a Solarte; and I bet you'd be even more surprised to learn that it's actually pretty far from Solarte):



While I have not been to the much of the island, I generally think that you see a gradient from west to east where you get polymorphism with spots, then red with small spots, then red without spots. I feel like, after seen these different populations, I could 9 times out of 10 pick out the Cemetery population.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonarchzMan View Post
Justin's being silly because I know he knows there's more to Bastimentos than that (I've been to some of the odd populations with him). This frog also comes from Bastimentos (and if I didn't tell you that, I would bet you'd say it's a Solarte; and I bet you'd be even more surprised to learn that it's actually pretty far from Solarte):

While I have not been to the much of the island, I generally think that you see a gradient from west to east where you get polymorphism with spots, then red with small spots, then red without spots. I feel like, after seen these different populations, I could 9 times out of 10 pick out the Cemetery population.
Thank you for your response. Again my information about what Justin said was second hand. So there were at least two opportunities for what he actually said to be misunderstood and/or edited. What you say makes sense and fits in with theme of what I had heard.
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