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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2011, 07:24 AM
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Default Known locality pumilio populations?

Another thread got me thinking about this. Of the populations of pumilio in the hobby, which ones do we have locality info on? which ones are we 99% sure of the locality? I'm not talking about Rich Fryes lines of frogs. But actual whole "morphs" we know are from where we say they are.

Heres a crude list, correct me if I'm wrong on any of these:
Cayo de Aqua
Isla Solarte/Cayo Nancy
San Cristobal
Bri Bri
Chiriqui Grande
Isla Colon - Bocas del Drago
Isla Bastimentos - Cemetery?
Cauchero?
Pastores/Shepherd Isle
Uyama River?
Rio Guarmo?
Rio Branco?
Isla Popa Norte - North?
Loma Partida?
anything else?

thanks
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:59 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

'10 EU imports "Sarapiqui" blue jeans
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Old 10-10-2011, 06:39 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

As in Sarapiqui Costa Rica? As in the Sarapiqui protected reserve? If so, I doubt that very much since CR doesn't allow export of any of its fauna. I live in EU and never saw or heard about any legal blue jeans import from CR last year. I highly doubt i missed it since any exports from CR would be BIG news, let alone Blue Jeans...
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Old 10-10-2011, 06:49 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikHa View Post
As in Sarapiqui Costa Rica? As in the Sarapiqui protected reserve? If so, I doubt that very much since CR doesn't allow export of any of its fauna. I live in EU and never saw or heard about any legal blue jeans import from CR last year. I highly doubt i missed it since any exports from CR would be BIG news, let alone Blue Jeans...
Exactly which obligate egg feeders DO you work with at all, and who has the offspring of those frogs?
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:09 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Escudos
Top of my head.
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:41 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Salt creek ,red frog beach,guaramo,branco,uyama,ejido yara,esperanza,tierra obscura,
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:56 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
'10 EU imports "Sarapiqui" blue jeans
Who did you get that info from? I'm not saying your wrong, I just got "They are just Blue Jeans" when I got mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cairo11 View Post
Salt creek ,red frog beach,guaramo,branco,uyama,ejido yara,esperanza,tierra obscura,
I was under the impression only Rich Fryes Salt Creeks were known locality? The others are "orange and green leg".

What are Ejido Yara and Tierra Obscura?? When were they imported and from where/whom?
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:07 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

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Originally Posted by thedude View Post
Who did you get that info from? I'm not saying your wrong, I just got "They are just Blue Jeans" when I got mine.

From a friend in EU who would definitely know - must be the one person in EU that Erik TrollenScheisse doesn't know
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Old 10-10-2011, 10:25 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

good to know.

How about the other populations i mentioned with question marks next to them? Anything I missed?
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:28 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Pretty sure all the BJ's that came in over the last couple of years are not Sarapiqui, likely just a hand full. The ones I have seen are exceptionally nice and very spotted.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:16 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Really? My info is pretty much as first hand as you can get - email me if you heard something definite that's different. I don't post any names on forums without permission, especially with all the Eurotrolling that goes on.
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Old 10-13-2011, 05:47 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markpulawski View Post
Pretty sure all the BJ's that came in over the last couple of years are not Sarapiqui, likely just a hand full. The ones I have seen are exceptionally nice and very spotted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
Really? My info is pretty much as first hand as you can get - email me if you heard something definite that's different. I don't post any names on forums without permission, especially with all the Eurotrolling that goes on.
So whats the verdict?
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:41 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Still Sarapiqui as far as I'm concerned, I would NOT mix them with the late 90's early 00 Nicaraguan US imports
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:27 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

I would go with Chris' info as he knows a lot more about the import as long as we know all imported in the last couple years came though the same person. Seems there are several flying under the radar these days and European imports are coming from mroe than most would guess.
The only reason I suggest the afrementioned is that there are several BJ populations and mixing those would be like mixing 90's and Nic frogs.
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:22 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

New list:
Cayo de Aqua
Isla Solarte/Cayo Nancy
San Cristobal
Bri Bri
Chiriqui Grande
Isla Colon - Bocas del Drago
Pastores/Shepherd Isle
Uyama River
Rio Guarmo
Rio Branco
Isla Popa Norte - North
Loma Partida?
Saripiqui
Escudo de Vereguas
Salt Creek
Red Frog Beach
Esperanza

How about these?
Isla Bastimentos - Cemetery
Cauchero
Isla Colon - Miti Miti
Loma Partida
Man Creek
El Dorado/Las Delicious
Almirante
Nicaraguan Blue Jeans
Black Jeans/Siquirres

What are Ejido Yara and Tierra Obscura?
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:44 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

from my understanding there are about 6 known local for blue jeans in Costa Rica.

Sarapiqui, puerto viejo and tortuguero are just 3 off the top of my head.
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:16 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Hi Chris,

I haven't heard the term "eurotrolling" before. Can you define this term for the board?

Thanks, Richard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
Really? My info is pretty much as first hand as you can get - email me if you heard something definite that's different. I don't post any names on forums without permission, especially with all the Eurotrolling that goes on.
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Old 10-18-2011, 06:35 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
Hi Chris,

I haven't heard the term "eurotrolling" before. Can you define this term for the board?

Thanks, Richard.
Sure!

Eurotroll (n):

fredErik
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Old 10-18-2011, 07:56 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

I'm still not sure how any one person would cause members here at Db to be cryptic about sharing information, unless the information would indicate that some sort of illegality has occured.

That's all I'll say on this subject.

Richard.
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:05 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
I'm still not sure how any one person would cause members here at Db to be cryptic about sharing information, unless the information would indicate that some sort of illegality has occured.

That's all I'll say on this subject.

Richard.
Actually, fred; Erik - 2 members. Yeah making constant false baseless accusations, later revealed to be done to promote your own project (fred), as well as making uninformed and blatantly false statements about egg feeders in general, showing that you just do not know what you're talking about, here and on dartfrogz (Erik), would definitely cause alienation even in the legal world.
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Old 10-18-2011, 09:51 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

sooo....about that list

and it appears theres a new one, mustard yellow popas?
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by thedude View Post
sooo....about that list

and it appears theres a new one, mustard yellow popas?
I'm not sure they would be a separate locality, Rich F says his (which I think are north) produce something like 25% of "orange" offspring, so they just might be a variant
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:11 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisK View Post
I'm not sure they would be a separate locality, Rich F says his (which I think are north) produce something like 25% of "orange" offspring, so they just might be a variant
These are supposedly seperate according to the pumilio guide at tropical experience. But yes i have heard the north population throws some orange/reds. Makes you wonder if the Norths we have are different from his.
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:22 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedude View Post
These are supposedly seperate according to the pumilio guide at tropical experience.
And they think that red and blue from Escudo are different as well, which is plainly bogus.

I think that trying to match geographic locales to highly variable frogs on the basis of color and pattern is of limited value. All the information we have is what is provided by the importers... which is dubious.

But perhaps I'm missing the point of the thread- maybe the OP can clarify- what do you hope to do with your list?
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:42 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Afemoralis View Post
And they think that red and blue from Escudo are different as well, which is plainly bogus.

I think that trying to match geographic locales to highly variable frogs on the basis of color and pattern is of limited value. All the information we have is what is provided by the importers... which is dubious.

But perhaps I'm missing the point of the thread- maybe the OP can clarify- what do you hope to do with your list?
Ah I missed that. A few other things are off as well.

I wasnt trying to match things by color. That was the point of the thread. Are we sure all of the frogs labeled 'Solartes' are from the same population? What about Cristobals? Im sick of seeing people keeping different colors of the same frog seperate, and Im sick of all the import years being seperate. Obviously if the import year means they are different then we should keep them seperate. But if someone has 06, 07, and 08 cristobals and they all look basically the same, all came from SNDF, then cant we assume they are probably the same and just label them all cristobals? If we keep everything seperate constantly then we are going to wind up with a whole bunch of inbred, low gene pool, "morphs" that are hard to keep around in the hobby. We dont have enough breeders to keep all the different populations going, let alone enough for the designer morphs and these sub morphs we seem to be creating.

Let it be known that I am extremely against hybrids and cross breeds. These are just some thoughts.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:50 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Any thoughts on my late night rant
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Old 10-22-2011, 05:10 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Correct me if I am wrong but are the rio guaramos really site specific or are they another best guess morph?
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Old 10-22-2011, 07:18 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedude View Post
Any thoughts on my late night rant
I totally agree with your thoughts and feelings. The simple fact is, we have VERY limited genetic variability within each breeding population we have in the United States. If we limit ourselves to breeding only individuals that were imported from the same location in the same year from the same shipment, we're very quickly going to see some issues arising. But at what point can we say that individuals are from the same natural breeding population? It's too bad that information from importers is so often lacking or just plain inaccurate (more so in the past). I, personally, would like to do whatever is necessary to only breed individuals from naturally occurring populations with each other. Once that is achieved, then breed to limit the decrease in genetic variability (some is inevitable without new importations) as much as possible.
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:35 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh_Bahr View Post
I totally agree with your thoughts and feelings. The simple fact is, we have VERY limited genetic variability within each breeding population we have in the United States. If we limit ourselves to breeding only individuals that were imported from the same location in the same year from the same shipment, we're very quickly going to see some issues arising. But at what point can we say that individuals are from the same natural breeding population? It's too bad that information from importers is so often lacking or just plain inaccurate (more so in the past). I, personally, would like to do whatever is necessary to only breed individuals from naturally occurring populations with each other. Once that is achieved, then breed to limit the decrease in genetic variability (some is inevitable without new importations) as much as possible.
Yes this is exactly what I was talking about. As long as they are frogs from the same population, they should be bred together.

So once again, how sure are we that all Isla San Cristobals can be bred together? Obviously not the "mainland" cristobals, which shouldbe kept separate. How about all Uyamas? Solartes? Bastis? Excluding Salt Creeks and RFB. Any other thoughts?

Hopefully the TMP for pumilio will be out soon.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:42 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Tierra Oscura means Dark Land and is right by Bocas del Toro.

I'm guessing thats the origin of the darkland name in the hobby.

As to these frogs, I don't know. There also don't seem to be a lot of population sinks between cauchero, darklands, Esperanza, but JP or someone who's studied them in the wild could explain better.
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:47 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Back to the BJ Sarapiqui for a second...apparently there were Sarpiqui BJ's imported in the past as well, so not all older BJ's in the hobby are Nic's. Still, it seems that the 2009 EU BJ imports should be kept seperate from the other BJ's in the hobby
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:51 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

As for Colon's

Three morphs I know of:

Del Drago
Mimitimbi
Nominat
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Old 10-24-2011, 07:55 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbreon View Post
As for Colon's

Three morphs I know of:

Del Drago
Mimitimbi
Nominat

What does 'nominat' mean in this context? Does that mean that the type specimen of O. pumilio pumilio is this color form?
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:04 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Just looked up the type locality for pumilio:

Type locality: "Neu-Granada"; restricted to "der Weg zwischen Bocca del toro und dem Vulcan Chiriqui [Panama]...zwischen 5000′ und 7000′ Höhe"

so 'nominat' must mean something else in this context.
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Old 10-24-2011, 08:34 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Nominat represents a specific population of Colon's but I don't know where....anyone?
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:56 PM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbreon View Post
Nominat represents a specific population of Colon's but I don't know where....anyone?
I believe those are the old imports from Colon that have no locality data. They could be a seperate population or a mix or something. who knows?

Rich Frye said there was a good chance the "Darklands" we have in the hobby are something different. So he might have the only line of known locality Darklands.

As for the old Blue Jeans, are you sure they were known to be from Saripiqui? I heard most of the old imports of BJ's were a mix from several different populations throughout Costa Rica.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:18 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Let's not forget Rich's Robalo...


[/B]
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedude View Post
New list:
Cayo de Aqua
Isla Solarte/Cayo Nancy
San Cristobal
Bri Bri
Chiriqui Grande
Isla Colon - Bocas del Drago
Pastores/Shepherd Isle
Uyama River
Rio Guarmo
Rio Branco
Isla Popa Norte - North
Loma Partida?
Saripiqui
Escudo de Vereguas
Salt Creek
Red Frog Beach
Esperanza

How about these?
Isla Bastimentos - Cemetery
Cauchero
Isla Colon - Miti Miti
Loma Partida
Man Creek
El Dorado/Las Delicious
Almirante
Nicaraguan Blue Jeans
Black Jeans/Siquirres

What are Ejido Yara and Tierra Obscura?
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:57 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedude View Post
I believe those are the old imports from Colon that have no locality data. They could be a seperate population or a mix or something. who knows?

Rich Frye said there was a good chance the "Darklands" we have in the hobby are something different. So he might have the only line of known locality Darklands.

As for the old Blue Jeans, are you sure they were known to be from Saripiqui? I heard most of the old imports of BJ's were a mix from several different populations throughout Costa Rica.
Just spoke with Rich about this a few days ago...according to Rich Frye he has stock from older imports and they from Saripiqui. Rich seemed to think the 2009 EU's were a different population altogether.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:11 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

Isla Colon - Miti Miti might be the same as mimitimbi

Black Jeans and Siquirres are potentially two different populations, or Siquirres is more representative of known site locale. "Black Jeans," although often used interchangeably with Siquirres, is more generic sort of like "blue jeans" which covers several different populations spanning several countries and populations that don't necessarily connect.

We could certainly debate if almirante and man creek are the same, or like el dorado are really the name of an importation spanning several populations or a region with some highly variable colorations really deserving of separate identities.
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Old 10-25-2011, 03:57 AM
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Default re: Known locality pumilio populations?

New list:
Cayo de Aqua
Isla Solarte/Cayo Nancy
San Cristobal
Bri Bri
Chiriqui Grande
Isla Colon - Bocas del Drago
Pastores/Shepherd Isle
Uyama River
Rio Guarmo
Rio Branco
Isla Popa Norte - North
Loma Partida?
Saripiqui
Escudo de Vereguas
Salt Creek
Red Frog Beach
Isla Colon - mimitimbi
Siquirres
Las Tablas
Robalo

How about these?
Isla Bastimentos - Cemetery
Cauchero
Loma Partida
Man Creek
El Dorado/Las Delicious
Almirante
Nicaraguan Blue Jeans


What about Ejido Yara, Esperanza, and Tierra Obscura? Never heard of them being here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbreon View Post
We could certainly debate if almirante and man creek are the same, or like el dorado are really the name of an importation spanning several populations or a region with some highly variable colorations really deserving of separate identities.
I had heard Almirante and Mancreek were definitely separate populations. and I thought the Dorados were from the Panama-Costa Rica boarder and were usually called Las Delicias?
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