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Old 03-04-2015, 05:00 AM
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Default Spotted El Dorado Information

Craig's sale ad piqued my interest in these since the frogs in his pictures are distinct from any standard El Dorado I've seen.

Anybody know what the story on these is?

When these were imported in '08, were they sold as a separate locale from the non-spotted frogs?

Doing a search, it seems that at least some of the El Dorados from that import were reportedly from the Las Tablas region.

If anyone has info on how true they breed, whether they remain orange/red to adulthood, size, pictures of froglets/adults, please share them him.

Regardless of the info (or lack thereof), these are beautiful animals, and if they're anywhere near as large or bold as standard El Dorados, a worthwhile addition to a collection.
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Old 03-04-2015, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

I've seen a few spotted El Dorados and I believe they have been imported with the standard form. Most of these imports occurred before I got hooked on darts though, so I'm not 100% certain. If you REALLY want to see a crazy looking frog, check out this thread by Ray - http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oop...dorado-f1.html

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Old 03-04-2015, 04:52 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Zach,
While I can't speak for Craig's frogs in particular, I can speak for mine. I have a breeding pair of El Dorado that have produced many offspring for me, every single one with a nice spotted pattern. My female is heavily spotted and dark orange....my male has no spots and is bright pumpkin orange. They were imported as standard El Dorado, but produce exceptional offspring that all have a distinct spotted pattern. Another interesting trait I've noticed from mine is that many have some blue on their feet. Below is a pic of one of their offsping.



As far as Las Tablas go....from what I understand, they are simply a site specific locale within or adjacent to the overall El Dorado area. These were imported after the first El Dorado came in and the whole hobby got in a tizzy because of lack of locality data.

Hope that helps a litte.
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Old 03-04-2015, 05:19 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by FroggyKnight View Post
I've seen a few spotted El Dorados and I believe they have been imported with the standard form. Most of these imports occurred before I got hooked on darts though, so I'm not 100% certain. If you REALLY want to see a crazy looking frog, check out this thread by Ray - http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oop...dorado-f1.html

John
I wonder if Ray ever got offspring from that one. That frog is insane!

Kevin, is your pair from around '08 as well?

Overall, It seems like imports over the last few years have been smaller and not spotted...
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Old 03-04-2015, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Mine are 2010 import.
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Old 03-04-2015, 08:37 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldlady25715 View Post
I wonder if Ray ever got offspring from that one. That frog is insane!

Kevin, is your pair from around '08 as well?

Overall, It seems like imports over the last few years have been smaller and not spotted...
The one in Rays picture was produced by my pair.

Kevin, I think we need to talk, we should try to put together some unrelated pairs. My pair is one of my favorite groups of frogs, they are also my biggest pair of pumilio, they are as big as my grannies...

Zach, I haven't gotten a chance to answer your email yet, sorry!
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Old 03-05-2015, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

I haven't had any close to that sort of leopard pattern, but I had a red female with very minor reticulation, and a peach colored male I got in early '09. The offspring were about 50/50 with/without spots. They seemed female heavy, but I didn't sex out enough to really know. Here are some F1s I have in my collection:

Dad's peach color in this female:


Bright female:


All of them seem to be more red in dim light, and lighter orange in bright light, this is my favorite female:



My only spotted male, he's got a dorsal stripe spotting and then peach colored sides without spots. His colors contrast more, when in less light:


Not a bad group for having traded for some azureus juvies back in the day
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Old 03-05-2015, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Thanks for all that info!

I'd have to agree based on the seemingly stable phenotypes that there's a good chance these are something separate from the "normal" El Dorados.

The Nola frog group has a decent sized colony ranging from '08 WC's to the F3s that Ryan currently has for sale. They are for the most part solid orange/yellow. I've seen some spotted ones come out, but the vast majority are unspotted even though some of the breeders have spots.

From what I understand about the biogeography of the El Dorado frogs, it seems they are a Panamanian spillover of the BriBri populations, meaning that these large, predominantly orange pumilio range over a significant expanse of land.

Adam has posted here and elsewhere that the '08s are Las Tablas. My guess is that these "spotted" ones are the Las Tablas (a site specific pinpoint within the large population), and the typical El Dorado from '08 and other years are probably from other areas within the range (with potentially a few "Spotted-Las Tablas mixed in), similar to the BriBri/Puerto Viejo situation.

We'll probably never know for sure, (and it isn't all that important) but it's interesting to think about nonetheless.
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Old 03-05-2015, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

FWIW, not only are my spotted el dorados a little larger than my bastis, colons and mancreeks, their call is a little different as well. They seem to have a deeper tone.
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Old 03-05-2015, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Some spotted el dorado calling

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Old 03-05-2015, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Phil, what year are yours? I didn't know you had some.

When I sold my offspring I would try group spotted with nonspotted bacause:
1) I didn't want to be left holding only nonspotted
2)because I'm under the impression these should not be line bred for the spots.
3) because grouping spotted with nonspotted is a more accurate representation of nature.

Interested in discussion on these points...
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Old 03-05-2015, 09:38 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Here is an image of the New Orleans group matriarch (population founding female) from Strickly '08. She was the only spotted animal in my group, since then she has produced a lot of young and they have done so to three generations if not four. Les the 20% are spotted of which most are female. I sent Ray one of my unspotted animals to pair up with his amazing creature, but do not know how things went, I hope he had success and a percent were "leopard" spotted like his parent.
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Old 03-06-2015, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldlady25715 View Post
Phil, what year are yours? I didn't know you had some.

When I sold my offspring I would try group spotted with nonspotted bacause:
1) I didn't want to be left holding only nonspotted
2)because I'm under the impression these should not be line bred for the spots.
3) because grouping spotted with nonspotted is a more accurate representation of nature.

Interested in discussion on these points...
Mine are from Craig, so they are from the '08 group.
I only have spotted frogs and the one baby I has seen is also spotted. They all have reticulated spots, some more than others, as does the (at least one) baby. They started out orange and have faded to a lighter gold color as they became breeding age.

According to the "Pumilio Morph Guide" there is a population of gold spotted frogs with reticulated spots that are slightly larger than "standard" pumilio. They are listed as "Las Tablas". I have no way of knowing if that is the location where they were collected, so I will never call them that. However, when I see pictures of Craig's spotted El Dorado and his non-spotted El Dorado, the spotted one's don't look like just spotted versions of his non-spotted ones to me. They look different somehow. They also seem to look different to me than the spotted El Dorados that I see from normally non-spotted or minimally spotted lines.
So, for those reasons (and the fact that I don't have any spot-less el dorado ) in will continue to keep and breed them together as if they are their own locale, different from the non or minimally spotted el dorado.

Maybe someone should invite Philsuma to join the discussion or even Marcus might remember the shipment. Maybe they can provide a little more insight as to how they were labeled/sorted/separated when they were originally imported. Or perhaps Craig already has all the info that Philsuma had and he can help us out.
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Old 03-06-2015, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldlady25715 View Post
Phil, what year are yours? I didn't know you had some.

When I sold my offspring I would try group spotted with nonspotted bacause:
1) I didn't want to be left holding only nonspotted
2)because I'm under the impression these should not be line bred for the spots.
3) because grouping spotted with nonspotted is a more accurate representation of nature.

Interested in discussion on these points...
1) ok, thats understood

2) that's assuming people are line breeding to get spots. In several cases people are breeding different looking "eldorado" that are noticeably larger and phenotypically different than other "eldorado" and producing that same phenotype without exception. The offspring from my pair, and other unrelated pairs, are producing frogs that look different from the standard eldorado, every, single, time.

3)That's a pretty big jump. As mentioned, the Las Tablas population looks very similar to the "spotted eldorado" in size and phenotype, and seems to consistently produce that phenotype. The people that have these frogs are not line breeding. Based on the lack of phenotypic variability among their offsping it seems quite possible that these are a different population. Otherwise, I would tend to think that at least occasionally would produce a non-spotted offspring. My pair has produced 75+ froglets and I have never produced one without heavy spotting or reticulation.

Not trying to be condescending here Oldlady, but I do want to be very clear, some people's pairs that look very similar to mine, are producing heavy spotted or reticulated froglets without exception. If these frogs were part of a mixed population of spotted/reticulated and non-spotted animals, and the spotting/reticulation is a dominant trait, it would not dominate non-spotted genetics every single time. I don't think it really works like that, even in line-breeding situations. I think that KHoff and I have large enough sample sizes to say that with some certainty at this point.

Unfortunately, this is one of the downfalls of the non-site specific, or quasi-site specific imports. Managing genetics in these types of situations is tough, if not impossible. So people are left to do what they think is right.
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Old 03-06-2015, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Thanks as always Ian. Ours were F2, so this group has produced at least to F3 on our end.

I have to agree with Craig here. If multiple pairs of reticulated animals listed from this morph produce only spotted offspring, there's a strong chance that this phenotype is stable and not the result of line breeding. To further strengthen this argument and assuming similar results to our line of standard El Dorados, I don't think it's possible to even line breed and get such stability only three generations removed from wild caught genetics.

Aaron, I think your decision to manage your group as you had is likely correct. As Ian stated above, the standard El Dorado will throw spotted offspring on occasion which is likely a part of the natural diversity. I also think Craig, Phil, and Kevin are also correct in keeping these as they are.

We have to remember that the term El Dorado is just a catch all term for large, orange Panamanian pumilio that span a large expanse and are probably all a giant population. These spotteds are like a node or pinpoint within this large population much like Puerto Viejo is to BriBri, Guapiles is to Blue Jean, Sarapiqui is to Black Jean, etc., etc. We manage these other pinpoints as separate entities elsewhere from the vast population descriptors, so I think the same should be done here as has been done.
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Old 03-06-2015, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Zach,

I answered your questions on 'the other forum', heh.

I agree with Craig's husbandry interpretation here, and not just because he is in possession of my original 1.1 that are the subject of this discussion.

'Line breeding' as it applies to our little niche hobby is an often misused term as is a ton of other scientific biological terminology. It means different things to different people, apparently.

To me, keeping those two WC O. pumilio separate and continuing to keep progeny separate is a 'good' thing. Line breeding is the concerted, often MASSIVE effort to produce a color or pattern, taking YEARS of hobby effort and deliberate pairings. Keeping those two pumilio separate and the resulting progeny is not line breeding to me. If we look at all the terribilis and azureus in the hobby, I would not be worried about 'bottle necking' or any other 'scary' frog hobby term unless we are talking about F12 or F13 'eldorados'.

a couple thoughts...
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Old 03-10-2015, 06:01 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Not that this adds anything significant to this discussion, but Ive noticed my pair "walk" around their tank much more than any of my other pumilio locales, at times using the entire tank without a single hop.
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Old 04-24-2015, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

The offspring from mine are all pretty spotted so far (granted... I've only seen 3... But still... Haha)




Good view of one of the adults' pattern:
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Old 12-21-2016, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Didn't know about this species till now. Beautiful <3

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Old 12-21-2016, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Ok, so it seems the "Spotted" and "Normal" El Dorados have been, and are ok to mix? Is that what I'm reading?

I have a proven 1.1 that just deposited their first tads a couple weeks ago. I want to make sure I've got the right info moving forward, so any insight or explanation would be much appreciated!

I got mine from two different people (both locals), but both said they originally came from Aaron, who said they were F1 offspring from the 2008 imports.

Also, as mentioned above, mine are much more terrestrial than my other pumilio, and "walk" around more than climb. They also have a quieter and deeper call than my other pumilio, so I can easily differentiate the two.

Here is my male... the female is nearly identical in coloring and spotting. Would these be considered "Spotted" or "Normal"? Obviously they have spots, but they aren't the large leopard looking spots in ones I've seen labeled as "Spotted" (and like in Tom's pictures above). Will their offspring have a chance at the leopard spotting, or no spots? Or will they look the same? What about coloring - could they possibly be orange or red, or will they be yellow like the parents?





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Old 12-22-2016, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

The ones from me you can mix with other spotted or no spotted 08'.The father wasn't spotted. I think people are indicating the spotteds in original post are from a seperate or distinctive import from around the same time.

Those two look good! Since they're both from me they must be siblings.
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Old 12-22-2016, 03:03 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

Thanks Aaron! The female was from Rudy R and the male from Bruce S. I actually traded an orange male I got from Bruce for the yellow female from Rudy. And now my 1.1 yellows are breeding

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm taking from what you said that the ones from you are in fact not called "spotted" because they don't have the larger reticulated/leopard spots and came from a different area in the same shipment? That right?

But either way I could potentially get some other "spotted" ones and they can be mixed since they're basically from the same general area and were mixed when shipped at the same time? And, it would also be nice to potentially mix in new bloodlines.
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Old 12-22-2016, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Spotted El Dorado Information

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