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Old 09-23-2014, 04:46 PM
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Default pumilio wrestling?

Hey everyone,

I obtained a "proven" pair of O. pumilio El Dorado from a local herp shop I trust about a week and a half ago. I was able to see the male vocalize, and they seemed to get along from what I observed in the store. The male was much fatter than the female- he is very round and HUGE for a pumilio- but I am sure he is not an orange terriblis. The female is smaller, more "flat," and has wide "love handles," which made me believe she was/is gravid.

I just walked in to check on them and I see the male vocalizing (staccato chirps) and jumping on top of the female. "She" tries to resist and hops away. He (being the proven male) keeps jumping on her. He'll follow her around the tank, chirping and trying to sit on her. Am I looking at male-male aggression? It's very plausible to me that the "female" might be a submissive male... and the fat, dominant male is trying to wrestle/beat him down/commit first-degree murder. This certainly doesn't look like courting behavior to me, a beginner at pumilio.

Any insights? Should I split them up immediately, or is this just some aggressive courting? I don't want a dead frog on my hands. Perhaps this pair was too good to be true...
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Old 09-24-2014, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

I have noticed same behavior in some of my proven breeding pairs of pumilio. If one stops eating or gets skinny separate them. Otherwise I have found it normal.
 
Old 09-24-2014, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

The "jumping on top" behavior would be somewhat concerning to me as that usually seems to like aggression. When breeding, it seems like it's usually following the female around, calling, and some petting (but petting is more for tincs I think)
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Old 10-06-2014, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

Thanks for the replies, everyone! Here's an update:

There isn't any more aggression. They both hang out at their own spot in the tank, and don't interact much at all. The male comes out and chirps every once and awhile. The female is still pretty plump, and hasn't gotten skinnier. They both seem fine, just... boring. My imitators are more fun to watch.

Tank temp ranges from 75 during the day to 72 at night. They live in a climate controlled building, and the temperature never fluctuates beyond this. They have lots of leaf litter and broms, but never seem to get out on the broms. I'm not sure what their issue is.

I'm pretty disappointed in these pumilio so far. Maybe I got too ambitious with keeping them. I'm thinking to sell or trade them for something more interesting if I get the chance.
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Old 10-07-2014, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

You could try pulling the calling male and putting him in a temp tank and see if you get calling from the other suspected female frog. This would be a good way to try and determine whether or not you may have 2 males. My pumilio pairs will follow each other around but they do not get as aggressive with each other as you have described. When they do I often find that the female is actually a male. You may also just have 2 incompatible frogs. Not all male/female pairs are going to get along and breed.
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Old 10-07-2014, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

What are you expecting out of them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffeebeans View Post
Thanks for the replies, everyone! Here's an update:

There isn't any more aggression. They both hang out at their own spot in the tank, and don't interact much at all. The male comes out and chirps every once and awhile. The female is still pretty plump, and hasn't gotten skinnier. They both seem fine, just... boring. My imitators are more fun to watch.

Tank temp ranges from 75 during the day to 72 at night. They live in a climate controlled building, and the temperature never fluctuates beyond this. They have lots of leaf litter and broms, but never seem to get out on the broms. I'm not sure what their issue is.

I'm pretty disappointed in these pumilio so far. Maybe I got too ambitious with keeping them. I'm thinking to sell or trade them for something more interesting if I get the chance.
 
Old 10-07-2014, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarbo96 View Post
What are you expecting out of them?
Well, considering I purchased these from someone I trust as a proven pair, I was expecting that they would at least be out and around. From what I understand pumilio are all the craze right now because they're bold and colorful, with interesting breeding behavior.

I originally set this viv up for anthonyi or truncatus, I wish I hadn't changed my mind.
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Last edited by Coffeebeans; 10-07-2014 at 01:01 AM.
 
Old 10-07-2014, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

To be honest, a week and a half isn't that much time for your frogs to feel comfortable in their new home. If you were to have breeding from them, it would of been from the stress of shipping. Most likely you have a young pair that need to mature a little. Pums like most species have both bold and shy frogs. Depends on the individual frog. My old pair was always out till I went up to the glass and then they hid.
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Old 10-07-2014, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

Pumilio take months to adjust to a new setup and have personalities that vary. Breeding isn't seen right away and can be difficult, which is why they aren't suggested for beginners. Patience is a must, but some go years without seeing breeding. Research is important too. My El Dorado are among my most shy pumilio.
 
Old 10-07-2014, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

Hey everyone. Thanks for reassuring me about these guys. I realize they won't breed right away but it is frustrating to get a frog that is so charming in the store, only to have them dive into the leaf litter, never to emerge. I had always heard that El Dorado were among the easiest and boldest, but go figure.

I saw them both today, and I'm not sure who was more surprised: me or the frogs. I'll give them some time.
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Old 10-08-2014, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: pumilio wrestling?

I think group dynamics are a big part of boldness.

I have a male Cristobal who was fairly bold when he was paired with a female. I lost this female. From that point on he would be basically invisible...perhaps popping out for a few flies and maybe some calling at lights out.

Eventually I introduced another female, within minutes he was out following her around the tank and calling.

So far I'd say they are fairly entertaining-I've never kept imitators but hear great things about them on here from many. However, my pair does fight/squabble occasionally(female will jump on male, or kick him away if he jumps towards/on her). This seems to happen most when food is introduced. Both frogs maintain weight and are on a second batch of tadpoles since my acquiring them.
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