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-   -   Isla Colon Morph questions (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/180658-isla-colon-morph-questions.html)

MELLOWROO421 05-14-2014 06:33 PM

Isla Colon Morph questions
 
I was reading through "The Complete Oophaga Pumilio" book and was reading about the populations of frogs in Isla Colon. The authors say that genetically all the frogs on the island are identical and that the idea of keeping the current morphs we have in the hobby serves no purpose other than marketing. If that is the case, which I do not doubt then why do we still keep the old line or nominant morphs separate from the "Del Drago" morphs instead of advocating they could be mixed. I'll admit, I am not informed enough to make any assumption on this topic but I would like to hear what you all have to say. For those of you with the book, it's on page 51, 2nd paragraph.

Dendrobait 05-14-2014 07:03 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
1 Attachment(s)
Can I inject an uninformed opinion/question?

How much does focus/bias on an island determine whether we decide to mix animals or not? For example-Bastimentos is a well known place and the frogs are very popular so even tiny variations in populations of frogs are noted(that being said-salt creeks are definitely quite different from, say, cemetery bastis). No one seems to mention different populations on Cristobal Island-which IMO show some of the most variability of all the locales. In the case of Bahia Grande cristos they seem just as variable as the rest of them in the hobby-providing they actually were all collected in a small area this would support Cristobal Island having a single, continuous, but highly variable pop. Also, very similar looking frogs could be very different genetically, and vise versa.

Genetic drift could explain visual differences between lines we have in the hobby. Also, knowing nothing about the islands the terrain of the island would determine how interconnected the populations are. An island with only isolated pockets of suitable habitat is going to have more of a case for keeping populations separate.

Azurel 05-14-2014 10:05 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=153241

I started a discussion on this subject awhile ago.

Its my personal belief from what I have read about the island as well as Cristobal that there is one continuous population. Just because there is variability in the population does not mean it is specific and seperate.

I have had both non-locale Cristobal and Bahia Grande although the BG were nice I didnt find them any nicer or anything that specifically pointed to a seperate population. With these two locales having variability It wouldn't surprise me to find out that the more "exceptional" ones were pulled and given a locale location.....The problem is we don't know if this is the case and to ere on the side of caution is probably the best method at this point in the hobby.

Also the author also posted in the discussion as well

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

markpulawski 05-15-2014 12:16 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dendrobait (Post 1949346)
Can I inject an uninformed opinion/question?

How much does focus/bias on an island determine whether we decide to mix animals or not? For example-Bastimentos is a well known place and the frogs are very popular so even tiny variations in populations of frogs are noted(that being said-salt creeks are definitely quite different from, say, cemetery bastis). No one seems to mention different populations on Cristobal Island-which IMO show some of the most variability of all the locales. In the case of Bahia Grande cristos they seem just as variable as the rest of them in the hobby-providing they actually were all collected in a small area this would support Cristobal Island having a single, continuous, but highly variable pop. Also, very similar looking frogs could be very different genetically, and vise versa.

Genetic drift could explain visual differences between lines we have in the hobby. Also, knowing nothing about the islands the terrain of the island would determine how interconnected the populations are. An island with only isolated pockets of suitable habitat is going to have more of a case for keeping populations separate.

I agree Cristobal has tremendous variety but that variety occurs at most locales, or it exists within that population. Colons however seem to have some different colors common to certain locales and reproduce consistently colored offspring. I have no doubt that genetically the same species of frog on an island is identical but color variations that exist in different geographies on that island in my opinion should be kept separate from each other based on the locality data we are given. Marketing?? honestly if you want to call managing our frogs as well as we can marketing so be it, but I for one will keep them separate and recommend others to do so as well.

Tyler Jones 06-10-2014 03:40 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markpulawski (Post 1950130)
I agree Cristobal has tremendous variety but that variety occurs at most locales, or it exists within that population. Colons however seem to have some different colors common to certain locales and reproduce consistently colored offspring. I have no doubt that genetically the same species of frog on an island is identical but color variations that exist in different geographies on that island in my opinion should be kept separate from each other based on the locality data we are given. Marketing?? honestly if you want to call managing our frogs as well as we can marketing so be it, but I for one will keep them separate and recommend others to do so as well.

Mark,
Are you saying Pumilio from Isla Colon are not variable within a specific locale, but can very in color though out different locales on the island?

markpulawski 06-10-2014 04:29 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
Actually both Tyler, take Drago for example all of the frogs I have seen from this locale have yellowish sides with varying degrees of yellow from a little to bright yellow sides and their legs range from yellow to a caramel color or even a dull tan but I have not seen Drago with the gray, green or blue legs that occur in other locale's on the island, they may exist but I have never seen one. There is also a Mimitimbi locale that has some nice powder blue coloring on the legs, along with green and some grey (or washed out blue), if you put these 2 localities next to each other they can look very different. Some can even be a bit larger than others. It seems the population between these 2 can throw a real variety of offspring with some have yellow legs and others having blue legs.
As far as I know there are confirmed Drago and Mimitimbi locale's here and an old school line which originates from Thomas Villegas (Robert Nhan has produced a crap load of these) that is likely the intergrade population because they produce a wide variety of offspring looks wise, or they are a combination of populations that have been mixed in over the years.

Tyler Jones 06-10-2014 07:23 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markpulawski (Post 1984009)
Actually both Tyler, take Drago for example all of the frogs I have seen from this locale have yellowish sides with varying degrees of yellow from a little to bright yellow sides and their legs range from yellow to a caramel color or even a dull tan but I have not seen Drago with the gray, green or blue legs that occur in other locale's on the island, they may exist but I have never seen one. There is also a Mimitimbi locale that has some nice powder blue coloring on the legs, along with green and some grey (or washed out blue), if you put these 2 localities next to each other they can look very different. Some can even be a bit larger than others. It seems the population between these 2 can throw a real variety of offspring with some have yellow legs and others having blue legs.
As far as I know there are confirmed Drago and Mimitimbi locale's here and an old school line which originates from Thomas Villegas (Robert Nhan has produced a crap load of these) that is likely the intergrade population because they produce a wide variety of offspring looks wise, or they are a combination of populations that have been mixed in over the years.

Thank you for your insight. I assumed that color variation throughout the Colon morph was just that (similar to RFB Bastis). Mind you, this just comes from reading bits here and there as I haven't come across anything definitive. I think Brian's question is an interesting one though. I haven't really seen any recent wc imports, but would you prefer to keep the old line Colons separate from the (hypothetical) new imports? Further, it seems that you would suggest to keep the Drago and Mimitimbi locales separate from each other? I remember years ago when there was just "Isla Colon!"

phender 06-10-2014 10:34 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
FWIW, the old Drago pictures seemed very unique to me and different from the other Colon morphs. They had sort of avocado colored backs with burnt orange spotted, orange/yellow legs.

The Dragos that have come in recently seem to me to be less distinguishable from the more generic Villegas line. They seem have brighter green backs with dark brown spotted, yellow legs.

I'm just going from pictures of the Dragos though, Mark sees many more of them and sees them first hand.

markpulawski 06-10-2014 11:22 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
The last few imports though Florida have all been Drago, they have been 100% consistent with the Drago phenotype with variation of course. The Mimitimbi's were a Euro import and seem spot on for what they are supposed to be. I would not mix old with new unless the old were specifically noted as Drago. There were quite a few Drago pairs floating around from Scott C from 3 - m5 years ago and they are still out there. I would think mixing any Drago with Drago would be fine, the Villegas line however is non descript and I would keep them separate.

pafrogguy 06-10-2014 11:22 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
I agree. I was at a friend's and you could not tell his old line Colons from my new import Dragos at all. They really look the same. Same colors, patterns, and that burnt orange around the spots

pafrogguy 06-10-2014 11:25 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
I do think the lines should be kept separate though as Mark is saying. Better to lean on the side of caution. I have only seen these two in person to compare though.

Tyler Jones 06-18-2014 03:31 PM

Re: Isla Colon Morph questions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phender (Post 1984521)
FWIW, the old Drago pictures seemed very unique to me and different from the other Colon morphs. They had sort of avocado colored backs with burnt orange spotted, orange/yellow legs.

The Dragos that have come in recently seem to me to be less distinguishable from the more generic Villegas line. They seem have brighter green backs with dark brown spotted, yellow legs.

I'm just going from pictures of the Dragos though, Mark sees many more of them and sees them first hand.

That's interesting. I have a trio of Villegas line Colons. Two of them look pretty standard while the third looks like the what you described above. Avocado green with symmetrical spots down its back and bright yellow legs.


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