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  • 2 Post By Nebula Mel
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Old 03-27-2019, 11:39 PM
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Default New here and new to the hobby

Hello everyone, glad to be here, like the title says, I'm a total noob lol. What got me interested is my boss at work got a salt water tank and I think it's very cool. Now I'm planning on moving to a new spot with a little more space and I started doing the research to get an aquarium, but quickly decided maybe the aquarium wasn't for me.. I started worrying about something catastrophic happening, and I don't want 30 gallons of salt water on my floors lol, so I shifted my thinking to a terrarium/vivarium. I remember watching some animal documentary and learning that poison dart frogs aren't poisonous in captivity and I thought that would be so cool.

So the plan is to move into my new spot, hopefully in May, and get some frogs, eventually lol.. mostly I've just been reading a lot of information about everything and watching some YouTube videos. I figure I'll get a 20-29 gallon vivarium set up and leave it for 2-3 months and see if I can maintain the right conditions before adding frogs. I love thumbnail frogs because of their small size and some of them are obligate feeders? They take care of their young right? Super cool, I'm really excited to see that, I haven't been to any local shops yet but there are a couple in the area, and there's going to be a Repticon show at the end of April that I want to check out for sure.

My favorite frogs are oophaga typographica, the blue jeans frogs! But after looking at some pictures I'm starting to also really like the oophaga pumilio rio colubre and oophaga pumilio loma colubre.

I didn't really mean to ramble on so much but, there it is lol. Thanks for accepting me into the community, I'm looking forward to learning more about frogs here.
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:15 AM
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Welcome!


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Old 03-28-2019, 08:55 PM
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Welcome to the forum, there is a wealth of knowledge here that will help you out. Seems you have taken a liking to obligates. Obligate egg feeders are more expensive than some of the other darts available to the hobby. But don't let me dissuade you if obligates are what you want to keep, they are great frogs and their care is nearly identical. Good luck with your move and welcome once again.
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:19 PM
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Thanks! Glad to be here.

I don't have a lot of plans yet but I think I want to have a water feature in the tank, nothing fancy and I know the frogs can't swim so I was thinking no pond or anything, maybe just water falling against some rocks pooling in a little plate or something.. still something I'm thinking about lol.

I was wondering though, do I need a bigger tank for a water feature? What's the smallest tank I can get with a water feature?
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Nebula Mel View Post
Thanks! Glad to be here.

I don't have a lot of plans yet but I think I want to have a water feature in the tank, nothing fancy and I know the frogs can't swim so I was thinking no pond or anything, maybe just water falling against some rocks pooling in a little plate or something.. still something I'm thinking about lol.

I was wondering though, do I need a bigger tank for a water feature? What's the smallest tank I can get with a water feature?
If you decide on doing a water feature, make sure to do your homework. There are plenty of threads on this forum on the subject to help you out.

When adding a water feature to a tank, keep in mind that it reduces the usable space by the frogs. The amount of usable space that is lost depends on the size of your water feature. So you would in fact need a bigger tank than the minimum sized tank you would require without a water feature. The minimum size tank is going to be a debatable subject.
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:49 PM
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Welcome!

I get a big kick out of my Ranitomeya imitator. They are egg-feeders as well, and are less expensive and more readily available than Oophaga.

There are also multiple locales of legally imported imitators in the hobby; finding and affording Oophaga of known legal provenance can be more challenging.
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Old 03-30-2019, 10:04 PM
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If you decide on doing a water feature, make sure to do your homework. There are plenty of threads on this forum on the subject to help you out.

When adding a water feature to a tank, keep in mind that it reduces the usable space by the frogs. The amount of usable space that is lost depends on the size of your water feature. So you would in fact need a bigger tank than the minimum sized tank you would require without a water feature. The minimum size tank is going to be a debatable subject.
I've read this before and if I turn half of the bottom part of the tank into a pond or something, I understand that is much less space for the frogs... however I'm thinking maybe a small drip wall into a small plate the water can pool into, something small enough and shallow enough that the frogs could stand in it.. and I guess here's my first question, would they? And second, if the frogs could/ would stand in the water, then am I really losing usable space for the frogs? Does the space lost come from like, the equipment? Can't I hide most of that outside the tank? Thanks in advance for putting up with my ignorance lol...
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Old 03-31-2019, 12:28 AM
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Welcome!

I get a big kick out of my Ranitomeya imitator. They are egg-feeders as well, and are less expensive and more readily available than Oophaga.

There are also multiple locales of legally imported imitators in the hobby; finding and affording Oophaga of known legal provenance can be more challenging.
Thanks for the welcome 😃

The ranitomeya imitator was one of the first frogs I looked at, I like the varaderos and reticulata, with the orange/ red backs and the blue legs lol, I really like the red and blue coloring, I think it would be really cool to see in a tank, do you have any pictures of your frogs you could share?

I've tried to not look at too many frogs that are green or yellow, or have those colors, I'm afraid those colors will blend into the tank too easily and be difficult to find or see. I don't know if that's particularly true or not, but it's steered me towards the red/ blue colored frogs lol.

I feel like I'm still far away from actually getting frogs but once I get there, I would totally consider a Ranitomeya imitator if I couldn't find the oophaga frogs I want.
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Old 04-02-2019, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Nebula Mel View Post
I feel like I'm still far away from actually getting frogs but once I get there, I would totally consider a Ranitomeya imitator if I couldn't find the oophaga frogs I want.
Sounds good, take your time, and what ever you get continue to do your research.
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Old 04-03-2019, 04:07 AM
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I'm not much of a picture taker, sorry. Not being a smartphone user seems to equate with not being a picture taker, nowdays. I should try to take some pics one of these days to share. There is lots of eye candy here if you use the search bar to find the frogs you're interested in (and lots you didn't realize you were interested in).

Ranitomeya reticulata is a completely different frog, and not for beginners, so I've read. I keep 'green' (look exactly like 'Cainarachi Valley', which is a legal locale frog) and 'Iquitos'. The greens might blend in more if you are looking from across the room, but they're the ones I watch more -- my pair happens to be more bold, and more interactive with each other.

How a frog looks has almost nothing to do with how much you'll watch them and see them, nor how much you'll enjoy them, I'll wager. A frog (or any animal, for that matter) that is purple with yellow flashing spots and Jesus' face on its back will soon become boring if it doesn't have interesting behaviors or grasp your attention in some other way.

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Originally Posted by Nebula Mel View Post
Thanks for the welcome 😃

The ranitomeya imitator was one of the first frogs I looked at, I like the varaderos and reticulata, with the orange/ red backs and the blue legs lol, I really like the red and blue coloring, I think it would be really cool to see in a tank, do you have any pictures of your frogs you could share?

I've tried to not look at too many frogs that are green or yellow, or have those colors, I'm afraid those colors will blend into the tank too easily and be difficult to find or see. I don't know if that's particularly true or not, but it's steered me towards the red/ blue colored frogs lol.

I feel like I'm still far away from actually getting frogs but once I get there, I would totally consider a Ranitomeya imitator if I couldn't find the oophaga frogs I want.
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Old 04-04-2019, 04:00 AM
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Okay, so I was originally thinking about getting a small tank but after doing some more youtube research lol, I think I want to go a little bigger... I'm looking to get an exo terra 24x18x24, I think it's medium tall. I found them online at Petco for 230 with free shipping, but they have the 24x18x36 on sale for like 260 lol, just something to consider.. and if I pre order it from josh's frogs for a trade show pick up, I could get the tank for 130, but I've got to go to a show for that lol, the next show that they are going to is in Vegas, May 18 I think, which might be fun, but I'm not looking forward to waiting.. I've been checking craigslist and like letgo/offerup, but not having very much luck.

I also watched a youtube video where someone made a the background of his tank like a drip wall, and he had the left part and front part of the tank had no hydroballs or whatever they are, so it looked like a moat... and I really like the idea of having a moat, I'm hoping that will keep bugs and frogs away from the front doors and hopefully nothing will be able to get out when I've got the doors open... I've seen some videos where the bugs are just crawling out and some frogs too and I don't want that in my tank lol...
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Old 04-04-2019, 06:37 PM
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Okay, so I was originally thinking about getting a small tank but after doing some more youtube research lol, I think I want to go a little bigger... I'm looking to get an exo terra 24x18x24, I think it's medium tall. I found them online at Petco for 230 with free shipping, but they have the 24x18x36 on sale for like 260 lol, just something to consider.. and if I pre order it from josh's frogs for a trade show pick up, I could get the tank for 130, but I've got to go to a show for that lol, the next show that they are going to is in Vegas, May 18 I think, which might be fun, but I'm not looking forward to waiting.. I've been checking craigslist and like letgo/offerup, but not having very much luck.

I also watched a youtube video where someone made a the background of his tank like a drip wall, and he had the left part and front part of the tank had no hydroballs or whatever they are, so it looked like a moat... and I really like the idea of having a moat, I'm hoping that will keep bugs and frogs away from the front doors and hopefully nothing will be able to get out when I've got the doors open... I've seen some videos where the bugs are just crawling out and some frogs too and I don't want that in my tank lol...
Bigger is always better in my opinion. The frogs will certainly appreciate it.

I wouldn't say that a moat will help prevent escapees, certainly not bugs. They can crawl on the glass and escape above the moat easily. Furthermore water features introduce their own unique challenges, whether they have moving water or not. Make sure to do your homework regarding them.
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Old 11-16-2019, 07:28 PM
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I'm still here, I did manage to move into my new spot and then realized I had to furnish the entire apartment lol which was an expense that put off getting frogs for a bit lol, but I'm still here lol and there's a local show in January that I am planning to pick up a tank.

First question, is there anything I can prep now before I get the tank, like start isopod and spring tail cultures or should I just wait for the tank?

Second question... I've read a couple places that it's unhealthy for the frogs to be in a breeding cycle all the time so people mist less or whatever they do to help the frogs cycle down and simulate seasons in the tank... which leads me to my question lol, if I pick up a trio of frogs and it turns out that they are all male or all female in which case no breeding can take place... would it be unhealthy or cruel to keep them in a situation where they cannot breed? Do they live as long if they don't breed? Will they get frog depression?

... which leads us to my really noob third question... if it is not unhealthy for frogs to not breed, could I possibly keep different kinds of frogs in my tank? If they were all male or all female and could not make weird hybrid frog babies, would it be unhealthy or cruel to keep them together? I know that there are still factors like how big and territorial do the frogs get and some frogs can live in slightly different conditions, but if I did the research and made sure they were all around the same size and had enough space in the tank and lived in similar enough conditions, would it be okay?

I asked someone at the last show I went to and he said it would be fine but I would get a lot of hate from the internet lol so I would like to point out that I don't have the frogs yet, I haven't kept them in the same tank, I'm just trying to learn and understand lol, but I do think it would be really really cool to have different kinds of frogs in one tank. Do frogs in the wild never encounter different kinds of frogs?

Any opinions or advice would be welcome and thanks for putting up with me so far lol
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Old 11-18-2019, 12:49 PM
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First question, is there anything I can prep now before I get the tank, like start isopod and spring tail cultures or should I just wait for the tank?

Second question... I've read a couple places that it's unhealthy for the frogs to be in a breeding cycle all the time so people mist less or whatever they do to help the frogs cycle down and simulate seasons in the tank... which leads me to my question lol, if I pick up a trio of frogs and it turns out that they are all male or all female in which case no breeding can take place... would it be unhealthy or cruel to keep them in a situation where they cannot breed? Do they live as long if they don't breed? Will they get frog depression?

... which leads us to my really noob third question... if it is not unhealthy for frogs to not breed, could I possibly keep different kinds of frogs in my tank? If they were all male or all female and could not make weird hybrid frog babies, would it be unhealthy or cruel to keep them together? I know that there are still factors like how big and territorial do the frogs get and some frogs can live in slightly different conditions, but if I did the research and made sure they were all around the same size and had enough space in the tank and lived in similar enough conditions, would it be okay?

I asked someone at the last show I went to and he said it would be fine but I would get a lot of hate from the internet lol so I would like to point out that I don't have the frogs yet, I haven't kept them in the same tank, I'm just trying to learn and understand lol, but I do think it would be really really cool to have different kinds of frogs in one tank. Do frogs in the wild never encounter different kinds of frogs?
One: yes, there is. Choose frogs first. Picking a random tank and then building it and then realizing it is not going to be ideal for most of the frogs you like is a buzzkill, and is bad for frogs. Choose a species, do a lot (more than you think...) of research on that species and their care, and only then get a viv and set it up in an ideal fashion for that species. You wouldn't buy a plane ticket before deciding where to vacation, so don't buy a viv before you know what is going in it.

Two: some frogs don't do well in groups or certain pair combinations (again: research species) but the breeding - depression connection isn't a thing.

Three: 'Someone at a show' will tell you anything you want to hear.

Please read here:
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...ence-page.html
and then use the search bar and read all about "mixing". Please.

Quote:
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Do frogs in the wild never encounter different kinds of frogs?
They do, yes. Wildebeest also encounter lions; humans encounter ebola virus; animals of all sorts encounter conditions that starve them and freeze them to death. We're not doing 'wild' here, we're doing responsible captive care. Don't simply avoid "unhealthy or cruel" or make sure things are "okay" and think you're all good. Frog populations have been extirpated because of us; the bar for captive care needs to be high.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:30 AM
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One: yes, there is. Choose frogs first. Picking a random tank and then building it and then realizing it is not going to be ideal for most of the frogs you like is a buzzkill, and is bad for frogs. Choose a species, do a lot (more than you think...) of research on that species and their care, and only then get a viv and set it up in an ideal fashion for that species. You wouldn't buy a plane ticket before deciding where to vacation, so don't buy a viv before you know what is going in it.

Two: some frogs don't do well in groups or certain pair combinations (again: research species) but the breeding - depression connection isn't a thing.

Three: 'Someone at a show' will tell you anything you want to hear.

Please read here:
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...ence-page.html
and then use the search bar and read all about "mixing". Please.
Thank you for your response, I checked out that thread and it was mostly about mixing different species, not different frogs in the same tank. The big picture I'm getting by doing research is, just don't mix frogs, but I still don't understand why...

This article explains it the best so far:
http://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/bl...on-dart-frogs/

I understand that making weird hybrid frog babies or cross breeds are not cool, and that's not what I'm interested in...

I guess different frogs can be territorial even if there is enough space in the tank, that's a problem.. are there any frogs that are particularly less territorial? Would having all females instead of all males help with them being less aggressive towards each other?

But I guess I'll just give up my silly idea of having a tank with different frogs, I figured that'd be a big no-no but part of the reason this hobby intrigues me so much is that there is a ton of stuff to learn...

Onto my next silly question... how different do different tanks for different frogs really need to be? How do I learn the ideal set up for a particular frog?

After doing research on different terrariums I've decided I want a medium tall exo terra, 24x18x24 and I want a water feature, even though the internet recommends not having one for a noob like me, I just think they're so cool and I don't understand how the hassle could outweigh my desire for the water feature... I was planning on setting up the tank like this...

https://youtu.be/x1oFwPCqH7M
https://youtu.be/lg1La-t2gCc
https://youtu.be/gbVVrIYIdMs

With the drip wall in the back and water on the left side and the front, it makes me think of a moat, I'm almost as excited to have the tank set up with the drip wall and the little water drippy sounds as I am about the frogs lol...

And then as far as frogs go, the oophaga pumilio is probably my favorite, I love how little they are and that they are egg feeders... I saw a trio at the last show I went too, and they actually said they were oophaga pumilio escudo, and I thought escudos were different... but I'm still learning all the different names and such... but they were expensive, 600 bucks for the trio, is that a typical price? And if those were too expensive or hard to find once my tank was all set up then I'd consider the Ranitomeya imitator Varadero...
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:29 AM
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Thank you for your response, I checked out that thread and it was mostly about mixing different species, not different frogs in the same tank. The big picture I'm getting by doing research is, just don't mix frogs, but I still don't understand why...
And you searched here for 'mixing'? I can't imagine after reading everything that has been written here (2,080 hits) that you still have questions about it. It simply isn't possible. Besides, you mentioned 'hybrids' more than one; hybrids are an interspecific cross. Ergo, that thread is totally relevant.

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Originally Posted by Nebula Mel View Post
After doing research on different terrariums I've decided I want a medium tall exo terra, 24x18x24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula Mel View Post
Ranitomeya imitator Varadero...
I'm guessing you've 'decided' on the viv before fully researching frogs? Sure wouldn't be my first choice of viv size for imis. Why that size for imis, given that a pair is by far the most sensible number to keep? I guess some people like a really big viv with two tiny frogs in it; that sounds great to me, but does it to you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula Mel View Post
After doing research on different terrariums I've decided I want a medium tall exo terra, 24x18x24 and I want a water feature, even though the internet recommends not having one for a noob like me, I just think they're so cool and I don't understand how the hassle could outweigh my desire for the water feature... I was planning on setting up the tank like this...

https://youtu.be/x1oFwPCqH7M
https://youtu.be/lg1La-t2gCc
https://youtu.be/gbVVrIYIdMs

With the drip wall in the back and water on the left side and the front, it makes me think of a moat, I'm almost as excited to have the tank set up with the drip wall and the little water drippy sounds as I am about the frogs lol...
Point one: YouTube, that's where they eat Tide Pods, right? Be careful where you find your role models.

Point two: the first hit here on a search for water feature' is a pretty comprehensive rebuttal of the idea of a water feature. There are 4,189 hits on that search additionally, and I'm gonna bet they add at least a hundred more considerations against. It isn't that "the internet" recommends something; the point is that there are valid reasons. Before I spend hundreds (thousands?) of dollars making some frogs unhappy in the course of making myself hate a hobby because I got in way over my head, I'd learn those reasons.

That first hit I mentioned:
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-features.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nebula Mel View Post
How do I learn the ideal set up for a particular frog?
Umm..you take my advice about reading everything you can find about the particular species. Sooner or later in that reading, you'll bump into something about viv setup.

Here: so for Ranitomeya imitator:

Here are the DB care sheets: https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/

then...

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gt...mitator%20care

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gt...imitator%20viv
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Old 11-26-2019, 05:22 PM
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Sure wouldn't be my first choice of viv size for imis. Why that size for imis, given that a pair is by far the most sensible number to keep? I guess some people like a really big viv with two tiny frogs in it; that sounds great to me, but does it to you?
Socratic is that a bad idea in your opinion? Would that be a big disadvantage?
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Old 11-26-2019, 11:35 PM
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Socratic is that a bad idea in your opinion? Would that be a big disadvantage?
No, a big viv for a pair of imitators would be great for the frogs.

Most newcomers to the hobby who set up a largish viv think that it is simple to stock it with so many frogs that is is always possible to see one or two of them. This, of course, is only possible with a certain few species. Keeping imitators in other than pairs is not a good idea in any event, and certainly not to be recommended to someone without a lot of dart experience.
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Old 11-29-2019, 02:20 PM
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A 12x12x18 or 24 high is ideal for a pair of imitators. Put some new thumbs in a tank you originally want and you will rarely know if they are still alive.

As far as building a tank for a specific frog... it is imperative to do your research. For example most darts are purely terrestrial but some like to climb more than others so they benefit from more height in a tank. Imitators love a ton of bromeliads to splash and hide in that tincs can live without.


When I first got into darts back in my college years I wanted a huge tank with every color frog imaginable jumping around in it. Back then i bought a pair of cobalt tincs, red galacts and leuce for a 40 gallon tank. Within a month my galacts were gone , folowed by my leucs truly opening my eyes to what every experienced hobbyist suggesrs "DO NOT MIX". I have since grown up and got back into the hobby 4 years ago starting with some Auratus and couldnt be happier.

Pick your favorite "BEGINNER" frog pair housed in a small but appropriately sized viv and see how things go. Going too big too quick can lead to big problems and like in my case the death of innocent beautiful animals.

Good luck!
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Old 11-29-2019, 05:02 PM
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Thats not good advice. If your thumbnails don't show, either in a big or small tank... Your tank is not wel desgned for your frogs.Bigger tanks are always better!

Ive also had it with the discussion about "climbing"... Common people,there is no "climbing" in the sizes of tanks we have in the hobby. Every single dartfrog in captivity will use every available inch possible in the tank. If your tanks design is correct ofcourse...We can start talking about "climbing" difference between frogs when we have +3-5 meter tanks.
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Old 11-29-2019, 07:18 PM
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most darts are purely terrestrial
I can't even make sense of this statement, unless 'terrestrial' means something like 'incapable of controlled flight' or something. I wonder why we keep repeating it.
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Old 11-29-2019, 07:21 PM
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When I first got into darts back in my college years I wanted a huge tank with every color frog imaginable jumping around in it. Back then i bought a pair of cobalt tincs, red galacts and leuce for a 40 gallon tank. Within a month my galacts were gone [snip]
Going too big too quick can lead to big problems and like in my case the death of innocent beautiful animals.
I don't think it was the viv size at issue here (although the argument could be made that it was way too small for what you were attempting).
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Old 11-29-2019, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker9 View Post
When I first got into darts back in my college years I wanted a huge tank with every color frog imaginable jumping around in it. Back then i bought a pair of cobalt tincs, red galacts and leuce for a 40 gallon tank. Within a month my galacts were gone [snip]
Going too big too quick can lead to big problems and like in my case the death of innocent beautiful animals.
I don't think it was the viv size at issue here (although the argument could be made that it was way too small for what you were attempting).
Yes Im well aware of what the problem was. I was attempting to demonstrate why you dont mix species not tank size
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Old 11-29-2019, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker9 View Post
most darts are purely terrestrial
I can't even make sense of this statement, unless 'terrestrial' means something like 'incapable of controlled flight' or something. I wonder why we keep repeating it.

living on or in the ground; not aquatic, arboreal, or aerial.
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Old 11-29-2019, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: New here and new to the hobby

Now I get it. In frogs, 'terrestrial' means 'not aquatic' (since this is a natural division in the group -- those who require a body of surface water for all or part of their life cycle, and those who don't).

Many of us have been misleadingly using 'terrestrial' to mean 'not arboreal'; many darts spend crucial parts of their life cycles in trees (Ranitomeya, Oophaga) but are still considered terrestrial because they aren't aquatic.
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Old 11-29-2019, 08:33 PM
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Yes Im well aware of what the problem was. I was attempting to demonstrate why you dont mix species not tank size
Gotcha. I misread the structure of your argument.
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Old 11-30-2019, 02:07 PM
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welcome, enjoy!
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Thanks for all who have posted here, I really appreciate the input 😃

This weekend I bought a 24x18x24 medium tall exo terra tank! I'm super excited to officially get started on my frog journey lol! Next step is to get the right drill bits to drill into the tank and get a glass panel for the top.
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