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Old 07-03-2012, 03:15 AM
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Default Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

So after finally going to NE herpetoculture and walking away with a tray full of Plants, I finally motivated myself to finish the four exo terras tanks I had. This is the first time I used kitty litter as a BG and it came out pretty good surpringly. The tanks has no residents yet but I am hoping to pick up some frogs locally or at the White Plains Expo next week

12" x 12" x 18"


18" x 18" x 18"



24" x 18" x 18"




24" x 18" x 24"

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Old 07-03-2012, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Great looking Vivs! Can you please explain the kitty litter bg? I haven't heard of that one yet. Do you have any pics of the process? I guess i'm going to google kittly litter bg now. Looks like i'll have to pull another all nighter on the forums again researching threads.....lol
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Old 07-03-2012, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Pretty much what I use are dr. elsey's precious cat litter from petsmart (around $14 for a 40lb bag) mix it with some peat moss and water and viola it's like playdough and you can just slap it onto the glass. So far it works really well. I don't have pictures of the process but here's a video where it shows how the background is put on:

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Old 07-03-2012, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Kitty Litter is the debil....even more so than fooseball
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:14 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Does the litter mixture get hard? how does it hold up to the high humidity?
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StickyTongues View Post
how does it hold up to the high humidity?
Just a small sampling of the many posts about humidity+kitty litter:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...clay-fail.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/par...y-failure.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/par...clay-fail.html
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:25 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

As much as I hate to rain on the parade...I can only concur with Field on the above posts. After a couple months of constant humidity, my experience is that the clay just begins to peel and fall off the side of the glass. It was a pain to clean out a 4x2x3' case in which I had used all bentonite clay for the background. Very frustrating.

However, if you take it SLOW and don't keep it too humid, and allow moss to overtake it and included some other materials in the mix...it might be okay.
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

I have also read post where a clay wall have kept up for 3 years, I don't plan on adding a drip wall or a water feature onto the background so it should be okay. Will see how it works out I actually had these tanks for about a month already unplanted and the clay had only crack where I didn't keep it humid enough and that's the top areas before I covered it.
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Old 07-03-2012, 04:41 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

The problem I ran into was where the condensation from the glass lid dripped onto the clay. First small chunks started to come loose, then as the clay became over-saturated, whole slabs slid down. Eventually both sides collapsed, luckily no frogs were caught under the clayvalanche. I was ticked too because I was getting really attractive moss growth.
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Old 07-03-2012, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

I've had my kitty litter tanks set up for a couple years now. I love it.

I don't have an auto misting system though. Just a hand sprayer. The clay helps keep things nice and humid.
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Old 07-03-2012, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

I have a tank thats clay. Made out of kitty litter, peat, coco husk and some organics. It has held up well to all the humidity, for over a year. I think the secret is to not initially wet it too much.
The only thing i dont like is the weight. Its 4x heavier then anything done with ExpandingFoam
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Old 07-03-2012, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Ok, So after staying up till 4 in the morning reading all i can about the clay bg, i have decided to stay away from doing one. too many people have had bad experiences with it. I do think they look really amazing though. I might try one down the road and just not put any frogs in it.
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Old 07-03-2012, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

I have had my kitty litter background going for over a year and have haad no problems with it, my 3 leucs are doing fine in it. One thing you have to remember is that people usually only post about their failures with Kitty litter not that they have had tank(s) going strong for years. Just like any background its how you build it, there are reports of foam backgrounds peeling off the glass.
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Old 07-06-2012, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

I made a clay bg for M. stelzneri. Looked great, but it also fails when it dries too much, so it would appear you have to get the moisture just right. Considering the weight if it falls...I'm opting out from now on and sticking with great stuff. It is a PITA, but looks awesome and is so versatile.

Bad thing is I was at Lowe's the other day and they no longer carry black or brown GEII silicone.

What else can you use that isn't clear or white?
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:50 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Check your local Ace hardware or similar store... They should carry black and/or brown.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

When the clay was getting big on the forums we had a local decide to try one. Unfortunately we live in an incredibly dry climate. In between mistings there would be such humidity fluctuations that the clay expanded and contracted greatly. It only took three or four weeks before the background he set up was cracked and warped.

I noticed the same thing at my Lowes. However, last I checked Home Improvement still carries the brown stuff. Or, maybe it's time to switch over to Gorilla Glue.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

i have tank that has a clay background and has been up for about 2 years. in my experience dont wet it too much. let it dry out some. i had a brom mounted in it and would spray it all the time, finally the brom fell. sad day for that brom cause i threw it out lol
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Old 07-06-2012, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

For mounting bromeliads... I have found it best to drill a hole in a small piece of cork then press that cork into the clay background. Keeps the stolon from rotting as easily.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Oh god, not more clay backgrounds! Get rid of them before something goes bad. Chances are quite high they will fall apart.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:29 AM
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Oh god, not more clay backgrounds! Get rid of them before something goes bad. Chances are quite high they will fall apart.
Blanket statements like that don't help anyone.

Yes... Quick mix and mash kitty litter recipes do have an upsetting fail rate. I've had luck with them, but I know many people unfortunately haven't... However, properly designed clay mixes can be extremely beneficial to your frogs.

Kitty litter can be used very successfully as an ingredient... And honestly your signature has always seemed a bit odd to me because of this. Again, i understand that some people have had bad experiences with it and that is a bummer... But it doesn't mean all clay backgrounds need to be discounted.

As with any construction method, what people need to do is research a good clay recipe (use the search function!) before jumping in. Doug and Ed have both posted extensively about this and Redart seems to be the key ingredient for consistent performance (use "redart" in your searches).
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

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Originally Posted by carola1155 View Post
Kitty litter can be used very successfully as an ingredient... And honestly your signature has always seemed a bit odd to me because of this. Again, i understand that some people have had bad experiences with it and that is a bummer... But it doesn't mean all clay backgrounds need to be discounted.

As with any construction method, what people need to do is research a good clay recipe (use the search function!) before jumping in. Doug and Ed have both posted extensively about this and Redart seems to be the key ingredient for consistent performance (use "redart" in your searches).
I agree you need the right mix along with practice too see what works, like anything else. I have used the clay mixture posted on last 4 builds and I luv it
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Something I noticed in a tank I saw that had clay fail, was that the builder mixed the clay (kitty litter) and additives but did not smoosh it all together. You can't just stir it around. It needs to be worked.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:46 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by carola1155 View Post
Blanket statements like that don't help anyone.

Yes... Quick mix and mash kitty litter recipes do have an upsetting fail rate. I've had luck with them, but I know many people unfortunately haven't... However, properly designed clay mixes can be extremely beneficial to your frogs.

Kitty litter can be used very successfully as an ingredient... And honestly your signature has always seemed a bit odd to me because of this. Again, i understand that some people have had bad experiences with it and that is a bummer... But it doesn't mean all clay backgrounds need to be discounted.

As with any construction method, what people need to do is research a good clay recipe (use the search function!) before jumping in. Doug and Ed have both posted extensively about this and Redart seems to be the key ingredient for consistent performance (use "redart" in your searches).
Mitch is not trashing all clay backgrounds. He is just against the ones using kitty litter as the main clay ingredient. I understand his signature completely. In fact, I came up with it and gave it to him after his kitty litter background failed. What I meant by it is, well, exactly how it sounds. I'm not talking about ingredients...I'm talking about what your cat likes to put in it. Sorry to those using it, but that is my personal opinion on kitty litter as a background material. I would never use kitty litter in any of my clay builds.

I have to say this about kitty litter backgrounds. Usually, when someone uses kitty litter for a "clay" background, they are skimping on time and trying to come up with something cheap. Now I put the word clay, in quotes as I hate that people group them together (kitty litter and real clay backgrounds).
A real clay substrate or background should mimic what is found in rainforests, where we find our frogs. It should benefit the frogs and the plants. It is "hopped up" with calcium to help with the calcium uptake of our younger frogs and especially eggfeeders. When run with enough leaf litter, the leaf litter and clay work together to make the ultimate, bug friendly, microfauna zone.

Let's take a look at what kitty litter is. It is primarily Sodium Bentonite. It is cat litter. The manufacturers know what it's being used for. It doesn't have to be pure or high quality. They dig it up cheap, size it, and toss it in a bag. It is probably the absolute cheapest, UN-pure, clay product you can buy. People wonder why a particular brand works on one project but not on another. It is because there is no quality control. There doesn't need to be any quality control. They are buying their base product from whoever happens to be digging it up cheapest that week.

Now I have experimented with a higher quality form of Sodium Bentonite from a pottery store. You know what they told me about it? I believe it went a bit like this.
"Sodium Bentonite Clay? We don't have anything like that. Bentonite isn't a clay...well, it is, but a potter would never use it. It has no integrity. Potters use it as part of a glaze component."
I went ahead and experimented anyway. Every Bentonite wall has failed. I ran two batches of clay substrate. One was my RedArt formula that more than a few of you are experimenting with http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/par...trate-how.html The other was identical in every way except that the RedArt was replaced with more sodium bentonite.
I then set up two identical tanks. One with my RedArt formula and the other with my Bentonite formula. They were both tied to the same MistKing system. Each one had one MistKing nozzle in the viv. They were both well covered in leaf litter. The Sodium Bentonite substrate turned to an un-usable mush within a few months. It failed before the microfauna was even able to establish. Well over a year later, the RedArt substrate is still going strong and is full of microfauna.

Sorry, but in my opinion, kitty litter is a very poor substitute for a real clay background, and you won't find ANY kitty litter in any of my builds. The massive expansion and contraction of Bentonite has been the cause of many viv fails, and has also cost home owners millions or billions of dollars in foundation and framing damage. Bentonite is considered a highly expansive, "volatile" clay. Home builders call it volatile because is absorbs water faster than other soils or clays. It has actually been recorded that bentonite soil can heave a two story home as much as 8" in just a few moments. I have often wondered if a thick enough Bentonite background could crack a viv after a good misting.
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:49 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Ok Doug, it's on! Sometime in the near future I will take many pictures of my beautiful and long lasting kitty litter background tanks. 2 years and counting
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Old 07-07-2012, 01:58 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

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Ok Doug, it's on! Sometime in the near future I will take many pictures of my beautiful and long lasting kitty litter background tanks. 2 years and counting
Haha! Sorry Kris. I knew I'd hear from you! I'm not saying it is impossible to have good results with kitty litter. I am saying is is easier to have good results when the bulk of your formula is not Bentonite/kitty litter.
I'm not saying that every bentonite or kitty litter background will fail. I am saying that too many of them do fail.
I'm just trying to present a formula that hopefully, will have better results across the board, instead of the few occasional successes.

And, just to get a rise out of Kris...Kris? How do you keep your cats out of there??
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

LOL well funny you should ask. My cat had no idea that we had frogs. I've been fooling her for years! Then, this past weekend, when it go so hot, my tree frogs started bouncing around and causing a ruckus. I kept telling them to be quiet, for their own good! Well, now she stalking the tanks.

But, no, she hasn't figured a way in there to use the kitty litter
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Hmm, just tell your frogs to watch their step!
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Old 07-07-2012, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

haha you guys are crazy...

But anyway... I actually remember reading when you said that quote so I understand the background of it. I am also well aware of the inconsistencies with the Kitty litter approach... I have bought a bag that never mixed to a good consistency so I trashed the whole thing. The rest of the bag is in the garage for oil cleanup and whatnot.

However, for the $1+change that I bought it for at a store right down the road from me it was worth the risk instead of making a dedicated trip and driving a decent distance to the nearest pottery store.

As you said... maybe Mitch was not trashing all clay backgrounds... but taken for how it was written that's what it looked like, which is why I chimed in. I just don't want people to be completely discouraged from using clay backgrounds.

Are formulas using Redart and Calcium bentonite better and more consistent? Absolutely.
But is Kitty litter also an option if the conditions are right? Yes.

That is why I recommended people research it to make their own decisions.

I still think they are both better than a lot of other methods. I like being able to grow things on cork slabs for months ahead of time and then just slapping them into whatever new tank I am building. I toss some saran wrap over the plant to keep it humid while the tank sets for a few days and its good to go.
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Old 07-28-2012, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: Planted Kitty Litter Exo Terras :)

Just an update finally got a rack for all my tanks and added in frogs and some new plants
My Rack:


First 18" Cube holding Anthonyii SI




12 x 12 x 18 holding D.Amazonicus/Inquitos



18 x 24 x 18 holding H.azureiventris



24 x 24 x 18 currently empty


and a newly build 18 cube also currently empty
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