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Old 07-26-2011, 11:38 PM
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Default Update on my frogs!

I found this link:
Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide

the site shows tincs from suriname have two distinct color phases, one being black legged and one blue legged. I am keeping my fingers crossed that both my frogs are just different color phases of the same morph!

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Old 07-26-2011, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

What do yall think? Is this just wishful thinking or do yall think i could be on to something?
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

I still must say I have never seen a Cobalt, juvie or adult with the leg coloration your one shows. Have you heard anything from the seller yet? Bill
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by billschwinn View Post
I still must say I have never seen a Cobalt, juvie or adult with the leg coloration your one shows. Have you heard anything from the seller yet? Bill
I agree, right off the bat I thought "yellowback" or something along those lines when I saw it's pattern. You really need to get info from the seller to know what it is for sure.
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

damn. I thought I caught a break there for a sec. No word from the seller yet...
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

Idk... if you scroll down to the kayserberg morph on that link it looks like I have two of those. They are tincs and they are from suriname so it possible theyre the same morph i guess
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Old 07-27-2011, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Peekskillfrogger View Post
Idk... if you scroll down to the kayserberg morph on that link it looks like I have two of those. They are tincs and they are from suriname so it possible theyre the same morph i guess
The "kayserberg" is listed as the same as "tafelberg" and "cobalt" on that website. Sorry, but I do not think you have two of the same locality. There are so many types of tincs and some look so similar that you really cannot positively identify them on pictures alone like this.
It appears you have something close to this: one yellowback (or similar locale such as "atachi bakka") and one cobalt/patricia/similar locale. Again, I want to stress that you cannot make an absolute ID on a few fuzzy pictures- you will have to find out from the seller (assuming they know...)
Did you buy these from a private hobbyist/breeder, pet store, or somewhere else?
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Old 07-27-2011, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

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Originally Posted by Peekskillfrogger View Post
Idk... if you scroll down to the kayserberg morph on that link it looks like I have two of those. They are tincs and they are from suriname so it possible theyre the same morph i guess
There are a lot of tinctorius from Suriname including some morphs that are have a lot of variability within the morph and can look like another morph...

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Old 07-27-2011, 01:57 AM
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There are a lot of tinctorius from Suriname including some morphs that are have a lot of variability within the morph and can look like another morph...

Ed
I do not think that is what is going on here.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:06 AM
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There are a lot of tinctorius from Suriname including some morphs that are have a lot of variability within the morph and can look like another morph...

Ed
This is what I was going to say. It is very difficult to distinguish between morphs of many different species of frogs based solely on appearance. I personally think it's even harder with tincs because there are _so many_ different morphs of tincs, many of which look pretty similar. Trying to identify these frogs from a specific locality based only on appearance is definitely not the way to go in this scenario.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:08 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

I got them from black jungle at a show in white plains ny. They were sold to me as suriname cobalts. Im really hoping theyre just a diff. phase of the same morph and looking at that morph guide i dont htink its entirely out of the question. At the show BJ had some little green and black salamanders that they said could live with the frogs... is that accurate or should i not mix them? I think it would be pretty cool if its not gonna stress either of the species involved.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:22 AM
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Im not trying to be naive here, but after doing some checking up on black jungle, it seems like theyre legit and i dont understand why they would sell me two diff. morphs. Its more plausable to me that they sold me diff color phases of the same morph. If they are different morphs, Ill have to deal with it, but thats not cool on their part. until they either call me back or pick up the phone when i call theres no way to know for sure.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Peekskillfrogger View Post
Im not trying to be naive here, but after doing some checking up on black jungle, it seems like theyre legit and i dont understand why they would sell me two diff. morphs. Its more plausable to me that they sold me diff color phases of the same morph. If they are different morphs, Ill have to deal with it, but thats not cool on their part. until they either call me back or pick up the phone when i call theres no way to know for sure.
They also, apparently, told you that you could mix darts and salamanders.... While you might be able to do that, it's probably not the best thing to be doing.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:31 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

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Originally Posted by Peekskillfrogger View Post
I got them from black jungle at a show in white plains ny. They were sold to me as suriname cobalts. Im really hoping theyre just a diff. phase of the same morph and looking at that morph guide i dont htink its entirely out of the question. At the show BJ had some little green and black salamanders that they said could live with the frogs... is that accurate or should i not mix them? I think it would be pretty cool if its not gonna stress either of the species involved.
Most certainly I would just call Mike and Rich and ask them of the source of their cobalts at that show.
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:54 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

Hi Tony (I believe that is right),

I am sorry for what appears to have been a mix-up at the show. I have actually tried calling you several times but every time I do I get your answering machine and it then cuts me off without allowing me to leave a message. Please give us a call tomorrow or provide us with an e-mail address so we have a back-up method of contacting you as we would like to get this resolved.

Regarding the green marbled newts, yes they can make perfectly suitable tank mates as they have done so in our shop for the last several years. Although they are traditionally not thought to be compatible, we have found otherwise. If we do not have the experience to back up our claims we don't make them.

I look forward to hearing from you.

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Richard
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Old 07-27-2011, 03:14 AM
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Yeah, you should come out to Black Jungle this Saturday for the Frog Frenzy and see how legit they are. I've never had anything but amazing experiences with them. There will be a bunch of guys selling their own frogs too. It's an experience just to go to Black Jungle, and it will be even better with so many more frogs there.... Plus their greenhouse is amazing too.
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Old 07-27-2011, 03:58 AM
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yeah I didnt mean to imply that you cant keep the salamanders w pdf's or that you gave me bad info. I had just read several posts to the contrary on this forum and wanted to double check it because its something id be interested in doing... and since i started with pdfs Ive found that things that I think would look cool end up being frowned upon.

so it sounds like i do have two different morphs then

Unfortunately I seriosuly doubt Ill be able to make it out to MA anytime soon. I work for a pool management company and, as Im sure you could imagine, its a busy time of year for us. If you are going to be at the show in sept in white plains maybe we could figure something out.

So my whole kayserberg theory is DOA? thats too bad lol i was really hoping for that to be the case.

Idk whats up with my answering machine, I havent had any issues with it that im aware of, but I appreciate you trying to call me back.

Honestly I panicked after the show when I realized i might have two morphs and a few days of not hearing back had me really freaked. Just goes to show how important in depth research is before getting into a hobby like this. After keeping reef tanks for so long I felt like this would be relatively simple, and I guess it is when it comes down to it, its just way more nuanced than I had originally anticipated. If i had it to do over I would have gone with the orange leucs you had at the show as there would have been no confusion there.

Live and learn I guess... Thank you for reaching out on the forum. I was not going to call again, and had prertty much resigned myself to having to remove one of these frogs.

It was obvious to me at the show that your staff loves these animals. Their excitment was part of what convinced me to take the plunge, and despite the confusion I am really glad I did.

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Old 07-27-2011, 04:30 AM
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If i had it to do over I would have gone with the orange leucs you had at the show as there would have been no confusion there.
Hmmm...Orange leucs, has me a little confused.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:47 AM
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Well it looks like you will have answers soon enough hopefully.

However id like to back up not only what Ed mentioned but also what some others mentioned(There are a ton of different morphs of tinctorius and atleast a half or evn over a dozen come from Suriname.) Im honestly trying to discern what you are talking about phases and morphs? You said there were 2 different morphs from Suriname? Obviously youve misunderstood something.

My vote for the frog on the right is a Oelemarie. Black Jungle regularly sells them and the leg patterns are consistant with Oelemarie leg pattern. Also the back pattern pops up in Oelemarie. I cant tell on the other frog but its not Oelemarie. Maybe a Cobalt but Ive never seen a Cobalt with that much pattern if any on the legs. (Save for the "Cobalts" that were floating around a few months ago that looked absolutely nothing like Cobalts)


Im sure Mike and Rich will answer your question with fair accuracy when you talk to them. BTW Those 2 are always extremely busy, easy to mix up on occasion in my opinion. Also shows not always the best time to get info from them.

Todd
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:13 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

I hope Ed chimes in on this again.

Richard: the Marbled Newts in your setup at BJ are fat and healthy but is it such a good idea to endorse keeping an animal that goes through a freezing winter period in a tropical terrarium?
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Old 07-27-2011, 05:23 AM
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I hope Ed chimes in on this again.

Richard: the Marbled Newts in your setup at BJ are fat and healthy but is it such a good idea to endorse keeping an animal that goes through a freezing winter period in a tropical terrarium?

is it a good idea to keep thumbnails in an 8x8x12 exo? hmmm...


and no, that wasnt to BJ, they know who they are
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:11 PM
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Well it looks like you will have answers soon enough hopefully.

However id like to back up not only what Ed mentioned but also what some others mentioned(There are a ton of different morphs of tinctorius and atleast a half or evn over a dozen come from Suriname.) Im honestly trying to discern what you are talking about phases and morphs? You said there were 2 different morphs from Suriname? Obviously youve misunderstood something.

My vote for the frog on the right is a Oelemarie. Black Jungle regularly sells them and the leg patterns are consistant with Oelemarie leg pattern. Also the back pattern pops up in Oelemarie. I cant tell on the other frog but its not Oelemarie. Maybe a Cobalt but Ive never seen a Cobalt with that much pattern if any on the legs. (Save for the "Cobalts" that were floating around a few months ago that looked absolutely nothing like Cobalts)


Im sure Mike and Rich will answer your question with fair accuracy when you talk to them. BTW Those 2 are always extremely busy, easy to mix up on occasion in my opinion. Also shows not always the best time to get info from them.

Todd

Talking about morphs gets confusing... especially when you associate a certain color to a specific region. Tinctorius is Tinctorius is Tinctorius whether its from suriname or peru or from some guy in NJ's tank. Just like homo sapiens is homo sapiens whether theyre from Norway or Somalia.

Now with the kayserberg tinctorius some are black legged and some are blue. Either way, they come from the same area and since they are the same species they interbreed. In this case the morph is determined by the geographic area the frogs are from rather than their appearance. Just like if you were to have a Anglo's and Blacks living in the same area, it would be safe to assume there would be interbreeding.

Its my understanding that with pdf's, people are trying to maintain geographic purity, only allowing frogs of the same species collected from the same location to breed. Color phase purity is something different, and Im not sure thats what people are looking for. It is convienient most of the time cus most frogs from most locations tend to look the same, but when this is not the case we have to assess what it is we are really trying to preserve in our breeding projects looks or locatiion?
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Old 07-27-2011, 02:38 PM
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"Name. tinctorius.
'Tafelberg / Kayserberg / Cobalt'
Country: Suriname.
Photo: Taken in the wild
Reliability: 100% real morph.
Locality/Info: Looks a lot like the tinctorius called 'Cobalt' (morph #12). Maybe the same animals because cobalt morphs can be very variable in pattern and color and are spotted in many area's in Surinam"

Taken from the Tinctorius morph guide. The picture on the actual site clearly shows a black legged and blue legged specimen from the same geographic area and even though they look different they consider both to be the same morph
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Old 07-27-2011, 03:21 PM
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Okay, I KNOW what a morph/locale is. I did not however understand the way you were originally using the term phase.
I didnt understand where you got that Suriname tinctorius have 2 different phases? Are you referring to one morph having multiple color variations? Or are you saying there are only 2 morphs in the entirety of Suriname?


Yes a tinctorius is a tinctorius. And to be honest crossing the morphs does not create hybrids contrary to popular belief. However, it does screw up the purity of the morphs being worked with. Simply because we get so little WC animals to work with, we do not want to have a ton of man made morphs running around and then in a decade or so, all of the true natural morphs have disappeared from the hobby.


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Old 07-27-2011, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

I think what he/she meant was cobalts from Suriname have two distinct color phases. That's not really true either. They do seem to be variable, and the two animals pictured have different colored legs, but these are just two examples out of possibly thousands of individuals in that area.
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Old 07-27-2011, 03:56 PM
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I think part of the issue that is going on here is that there are multiple terms being used ("morph", "phase") that have different meanings depending on which facet of the reptile/amphibian hobby you are in.

In reptiles, morphs or phases are generally color and/or pattern mutations that can occur naturally within a population. Within western hognose snakes you have things like albino as a morph (a genetic mutation) or green phase (bit of a color mutation that has a higher occurrence in certain populations).

Within PDFs these terms have been adopted and used a completely different way, and it's been a debate for years on what would be better terms or proper usage. "Morph" - within PDFs - refers to a population that shares a general phenotype (yes - looks are important). There can be morphs that have the same general phenotype but come from different locations and thus different populations, and this is reflected in a different name. These populations have varying degrees of interaction with other populations, and since their gene flow is mostly unknown in the hobby, they are kept separate (until proven otherwise).

Phases are generally not used within the PDF hobby, and only rarely have caught on (black saul/lemon drop yellowbacks for example) since they are just seen as variation within the population (and some populations have a LOT), and selective breeding for traits is generally frowned upon.

The differences within the animals you're referencing as the cobalts I'd have to disagree on there being a "black" legged version and a "blue" legged version... these differences are due to a bit of a difference in the depth of the blue in the leg and the fact that blue in these frogs is produced by chromatamores - crystalline structures that reflect like and make any photographer want to cry when trying to photograph them. They have a tendency to show color as overly dark (left picture) or overly bright (right picture) where the animal may not look like that in hand.

For example, look at Colormorph 25. I've worked with animals from the SAME bloodline as the animals pictured, and can tell you the animal on the left is having the blue color blown out a good amount. There are some on the greenish side, and I had a horrible time trying to take a photo that accurately reflected the "blue jeans wash" color of the blue (it does have a slight green tinge in some animals) without it blowing out like that with flash. The animal on the right is a bit dark, but more accurate in reference to the blue patterning... but then the yellow is more washed out than the animal actually is. I've yet to get a pic where both the yellow and blue on these frogs was accurate in the same photo and not something I've had to tweak to represent what they look like in hand.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:14 PM
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Taken from the Tinctorius morph guide. The picture on the actual site clearly shows a black legged and blue legged specimen from the same geographic area and even though they look different they consider both to be the same morph
It sucks that you were sold two frogs of different morphs.

If you're really bothered, put one of them up for sale and grab a mate for the remaining frog at the next show you're able to attend.

There are no colour 'phases' for Cobalts. There can be a great deal of variation, but I'm afraid you definitely have one Cobalt and one...something else - Yellowback is my guess.
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Old 07-27-2011, 06:51 PM
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So I spoke to Richard today, first off I wanna say that the guy is a class act. He was very nice and apologetic about the situation without sounding insincere. According to him I havea patricia and a yellow head. The guy Chris that sold me the frogs did not realize there were two morphs in the tank so it was a completely honest mistake. Richard was nice enough to offer me a mate for either the yellow head or the patricia. Since I cant make it up to his store he is even willing to pull one for me now and hold it till the show in september so it is roughly the same size as the one I already have.

I had him pull a patricia for me, and Ill probably just have him pull a yellow head aswell if he gets one in this weekend and buy thta from them at the show. Even though I told myself I would not set up another viv, theres a little corner in my upstairs office that could prolly hold about 4-6 20XH. Its full of clutter right now so Im thinking i could pitch it to my wife since shed be happy just to have the clutter cleaned out. lol we'll see i guess.

So anyway Richard from Black Jungle is def a good guy in my book. It was good of him to reach out and even nicer to offer me a potential mate for one of my frogs.
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Old 07-27-2011, 07:04 PM
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Really glad to hear you got this resolved.
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Old 07-28-2011, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

Glad to hear you got this resolved... however, Im less inclined to believe Yellow head.. Maybe you meant Yellowback?


Todd
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Old 07-28-2011, 05:24 AM
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Glad to hear you got this resolved... however, Im less inclined to believe Yellow head.. Maybe you meant Yellowback?


Todd
As well as I have not seen a black leg Patricia before?
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

The patricia has the blue legs... the yellowhead has the black. I spoke to Richard from BJ and he assured me it was indeed a yellow head, after looking at several pictures of juveniles like mine, im 100% sure its a yellow head
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frogface (07-28-2011)
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

I have no experience with Patricia, but I agree with everyone else on the other one...those definitely do not look like BYH legs. Here is a pic of mine for comparison...


When you are ready to pick up the new frogs, I would recommend taking these frogs with you so that BJ can see them in person and make sure that you are getting the right frogs.
Dartfrogfreak and frogface like this.

Last edited by WendySHall; 07-28-2011 at 02:49 PM. Reason: added to
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

Agreed, no way in Hell that one on the right is a Brazilian Yellow Head... which is the only morph referred to as a Yellowhead in this hobby.

Here is a photo of one of my juvenile/sub-adult Yellowback


Todd
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:40 AM
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Default Re: Update on my frogs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartfrogfreak View Post
Agreed, no way in Hell that one on the right is a Brazilian Yellow Head... which is the only morph referred to as a Yellowhead in this hobby.

Here is a photo of one of my juvenile/sub-adult Yellowback


Todd
Where have I seen that leg pattern before?, Hmm.
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:04 AM
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Smile Re: Update on my frogs!

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Originally Posted by billschwinn View Post
Where have I seen that leg pattern before?, Hmm.
I see what you mean Bill. I seen that pattern in the previous thread.
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