1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu - Dendroboard
Dendroboard

Go Back   Dendroboard > Dart Frogs > Member's Frogs & Vivariums
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Advertise

Support Our Sponsors
No Threads to Display.

facebook

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 05:34 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Hi guys, good to finally post I finally found my camera (I hate moving) so here is my 1st viv/palu. I meant to take pics durring the construction phase, but alas it was nowhere to be found. I was shooting for a dual water feature/tropical lagoon/river look in this 29 gal tank.



It was tough to get all the features in that I wanted in such a small tank, but I think it went ok. Next time I would like to try working with a much larger tank, I feel that it would be so much easier. Here are a few more pics.



Here is a shot of my "Mangrove roots"; just some roots ebedded into the titebond/sand mix at the base of my little tree to give the look of roots emerging from the riverbank. I just planted and have only done one water change so the water is still a bit murky.



Here are a few more shots. All of the plants (except for the brom) are collected from my backyard, and the mosses from a hike nearby. I had thought about planting more but I love moss so much that I just carpeted most of my substrate with it.





And one last shot, just becuase I am proud



I plan on making this the home of 4 or 5 froglets, cobalts most likely.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 05:56 AM
jeffdart's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego
Posts: 717
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Very nice viv! Just be careful with the froglets because they can easily drown in that water feature.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:01 AM
nathan's Avatar
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Royal oak Mi
Posts: 1,520
Thanks: 19
Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

What do you plan on putting in there?

I like the overhang on the left.

You might want to move the pillow moss from the ledge. It dries out quicker near the lights and can die off a lot easier. plus it needs a good layer of dead moss soil mix under it to grow right.

Im sure more will comment on this as well , but leaf litter will add alot of area for micro fauna and hiding spots for the frogs

Lookin good for your first viv and welcome to the board !
Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:35 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffdart View Post
Very nice viv! Just be careful with the froglets because they can easily drown in that water feature.
Yeah, that was part of the reason for the roots in the water, I wanted to give the little guys some escape routes, I also have some shallow banks at places. I will monitor them very closely when I put them in, if the try to go Virgina Wolfe on me I have a safety screen already cut and ready to place. It will bring the depth to 1/2 an inch, while still leaving the bottom open for the fish.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:42 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern CA
Posts: 259
Thanks: 20
Thanked 24 Times in 12 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Some fire belly toads would love that setup. They are active all day and love the water.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:53 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan View Post
What do you plan on putting in there?

I like the overhang on the left.

You might want to move the pillow moss from the ledge. It dries out quicker near the lights and can die off a lot easier. plus it needs a good layer of dead moss soil mix under it to grow right.

Im sure more will comment on this as well , but leaf litter will add alot of area for micro fauna and hiding spots for the frogs

Lookin good for your first viv and welcome to the board !
Thanks, and I will keep an eye on the pillow moss. I collected them on a granite rock face, where they were in direct sun for much of the day, so I wasn't too concerned, but I'm no plant guru so all advice is welcome.

I will probably use leaf litter on my next tank in which I hope I have more floorspace. The waterfeature/river takes up a good bit of floorspace in this tank, so I wanted as much green as possible in the rest. The lack of floorspace is part of the reason for the ledge on the left. I am hoping that my froggy friends will be able to scale the left waterfeature to take advantage of it.

I am also up for suggestions concerning what to put in the "river". I had thought of guppies/minnows or maybe african dwarf frogs and a lone beta. I know it isn't much water; and I am looking for fish that are very hardy as I won't be bothering to put in an aquarium heater or have the inclanation to do much fiddling with chemicals for the water.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 06:58 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Quote:
Originally Posted by bshmerlie View Post
Some fire belly toads would love that setup. They are active all day and love the water.
I know I thought the same thing when I was dreaming it up, but my heart is set on some darts... I may end up using this tank for some FBT after it has brought some froglets to maturity and they are paired off in other vivs.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 07:16 AM
james67's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Birmingham AL
Posts: 3,798
Thanks: 18
Thanked 278 Times in 189 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

welcome.

ok so i want to stress that i dont mean any of this in a rude or derogatory manner.
you have a decent start but there are some things to consider before jumping in feet first. first is the water feature. its very large for such a size tank and PDFs will almost NEVER use this space. it may look nice but in this case its not helping the animals. also, fish (and particularly clawed frogs) can and do carry pathogens that could potentially kill your frogs. because of this you may want to consider some frogs that will enjoy this type of set up and make a different tank for the darts. there are plenty of frogs that will LOVE that tank, just not darts IMO and particularly not tinctorius (cobalts are part of this species) as they are a very terrestrial and territorial species. (im not incredibly familiar with other amphibians so perhaps someone with more experience can chime in) but i would suggest some type of tree frog or reed frog etc. that will live much more happily in that tank.

ok now about the plants.....

the brom is a type that typically does not do well in PDF conditions (a guzmania if im not mistaken). the aroid in there (cant really see well enough for a species ID) while small now will very likely outgrow the tank by quite a bit. and the venus fly trap needs to go. not only is it unlikley to survive (needs acidic soil), but if it did it could eat a frog! dont believe me? heres some proof that venus fly traps can eat a froglet;


so again i want to say you did a good job, and better planning of tanks comes with more experience. your next one will be MUCH better and if your like me, youll probably want to change this one by then anyway

best of luck and happy frogging,
james

Last edited by james67; 06-22-2010 at 07:19 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 08:14 AM
Dendro Dave's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 6,279
Thanks: 189
Thanked 630 Times in 431 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Quote:
Originally Posted by james67 View Post
welcome.

ok so i want to stress that i dont mean any of this in a rude or derogatory manner.
you have a decent start but there are some things to consider before jumping in feet first. first is the water feature. its very large for such a size tank and PDFs will almost NEVER use this space. it may look nice but in this case its not helping the animals. also, fish (and particularly clawed frogs) can and do carry pathogens that could potentially kill your frogs. because of this you may want to consider some frogs that will enjoy this type of set up and make a different tank for the darts. there are plenty of frogs that will LOVE that tank, just not darts IMO and particularly not tinctorius (cobalts are part of this species) as they are a very terrestrial and territorial species. (im not incredibly familiar with other amphibians so perhaps someone with more experience can chime in) but i would suggest some type of tree frog or reed frog etc. that will live much more happily in that tank.

ok now about the plants.....

the brom is a type that typically does not do well in PDF conditions (a guzmania if im not mistaken). the aroid in there (cant really see well enough for a species ID) while small now will very likely outgrow the tank by quite a bit. and the venus fly trap needs to go. not only is it unlikley to survive (needs acidic soil), but if it did it could eat a frog! dont believe me? heres some proof that venus fly traps can eat a froglet;


so again i want to say you did a good job, and better planning of tanks comes with more experience. your next one will be MUCH better and if your like me, youll probably want to change this one by then anyway

best of luck and happy frogging,
james
I'm not gonna completely disagree with james but i'll just mention a few things, and of course this is all in a good natured tone...

First I think the tank is fine for darts but only if you take into account the decreased floor space, and the type of dart. For larger darts like tincs you probably have only enough floor space for 2 at most....and many would probably think you are pushing it then. Luecs might be a little better choice. For darts like trivs and terriblis...probably not enough for any.

Given the large background with a few plant additions and maybe some more spots to perch you could put some thumbnails in there that tend to stick to the higher parts of tanks and off the floor.

The pond could be an issue if you get any aggression...sometimes 1 frog will hold another down in the water and drown it. Its rare but it does happen. From what I see though the shore line looks gradual enough for a frog even a thumb, or well started froglet to climb out ok in most spots...but its steep enough that 1 frog would have a hard time holding another one down in the areas i see without that frog dropping into the water and swimming off. And believe me i've seen that exact scenario play out before, where the steeper shore actually helps the frog getting pinned get away.

One thing to consider though is there is always slightly more risk with a pond because sick animals are more prone to drowning. Often though frogs go soak when they are sick and then just die...and it looks like they drowned. And even if they did actually drown its because they were so sick and weak they were about to die and would have died within hours anyways probably.

I would say that you should always drain a pond or remove an animal from the tank if you know its sick or injured. But often in these animals the signs of illness are so subtle you never see it or dont see it till its to late anyways. There are plenty of keepers who had a seemingly healthy active frog one day just to wake up and find it dead the next.

I agree about the moss...also avoid hard water and getting calcium supplements on it. As for leaf litter, that area under the over hang looks like it might shade the moss to much, if so add leaf litter there and get the best of both worlds Leaf litter is great, it will help the tank hold more critters for the frogs to eat and they like hunting through it...but it also provides enough of a hiding place for the bugs that they have a hard time wiping out the population of feeders inside the viv. So ya its great...but especially in an otherwise well planted tank it isn't a neccesity.

As for the brom, I also agree there...even if it stays small enough that species tends to rot in high humidity vivs.

As for the fly trap again i mostly agree...there are species i think that stay small enough as not to pose a hazard to most froglets...but over feeding a fly trap is likely to happen with all the fruitflies for the frogs and that tends to burn/kill fly traps. Especially smaller/younger less established ones.

As for adding fish...I think its an acceptable risk. But thats a personal choice. While some stuff may be able to cross over its fairly unlikely. I've had fish in most of my vivs at some point with no issues. But clawed frogs, and dwarf frogs definitely pose more of a danger. To much for me to risk it.

You have enough water for a betta, and small guppies, and other small hardy fish are good choices especially anything like bettas that can breathe air in case the oxygen levels get low in the water. A waterfall or airline can help with dissolved oxygen levels in the water. Some small aquatic or marginal plants around the shore would be good and help filter the water. Contrary to popular belief you do not always need an aquarium filter even in a small pond like that to keep fish alive. But a small pond like that can only support a couple 2-3 fish at most usually, and small ones at that.

You've brought in a lot of materials from outside. Thats a little risky....I will use moss from outside and very very dry leaves but that is about it usually and even then i like to wash it off best i can. There is risk with everything we put in our vivs though even store bought stuff. Unless you maybe bake everything and/or dip it in bleach What level of risk you are willing to accept is up to you though...just be aware of it

Overall It is an excellent start but I agree it is better suited to some frogs as opposed to others. I think it needs to be planted more heavily especially the backgroud. I think darts can work in it, but no more then 2 especially of tinc sized frogs. 1 would be even safer. 29s aren't huge 1 bold frog would be enough of a show in my opinion.

I definitely agree with everything James said about planning and experience and probably changing things...my vivs have all gone through several remodels.

Just food for thought.

Dave
__________________
Everything I've ever written is/was just my opinion!

Last edited by Dendro Dave; 06-22-2010 at 08:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 02:45 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Thanks for the input guys, this is why I posted I know I am no expert, and I appreciate all the info. I was gonna pull the venus flytrap once I saw the size of my frogs, it is very small but even then I don't want to risk it. I also agree with planting the back area, I have moss mixed into the titebond/peat, and I am hoping it grows in, but in the mean time I am trying to find some plants that will root to it (suggestions welcome). The plant by the brom is a small aloe, and yes it will outgrow the tank, but I don't consider that a problem as I don't really mind changing it out for something else when the time comes (tell me though if changing plants down the road is a no no). Thanks for the info on the ADF, I won't use them then, and I understand that only 2-3 fish will end up in there. Sorry to hear that the brom is gonna rot... I kinda liked it. Hard to find broms in this neck of the woods (other than mail order). As far as space for the frogs, would it work for froglets? I plan on moving them when they get larger and I have more tanks built. I was just wondering if this was like having a much larger tank when the frogs are so small. About the drowning, I have a plastic screen cut that will cover the water and leave a depth of 1/2 an inch so they can't drown, it also has supports under it for the glass side (think like a false bottom). I will use this if I need to, or maybe I will just use anyways to be safe. Thoughts?

Last edited by CheshireKat; 06-22-2010 at 03:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-22-2010, 04:39 PM
JimO's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: St. Augustine, FL
Posts: 2,083
Thanks: 121
Thanked 135 Times in 96 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Welcome! I just wanted to comment further on the flytrap. Having kept them on and off for over a decade, I would love to have a whole bog of them in an indoor viv (without any animals), but alas, they need a very cold dormancy in the winter in order to survive. The rhizome survives as long as the ground does't freeze solid (a good reason not to leave them out in below freezing condition in pots), with very small leaves and traps through the winter. When things warm up, it grows substantially larger leaves and traps and the cycle starts all over.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but nothing good will likely come from a flytrap in a frog viv. Small varieties of tropical pitcher plants might do well, but froglets could get trapped in the pitchers, which contain digestive fluids. So, you'd want to limit those to vivs with larger specimens.

The viv looks great, but I agree that thumbnail species would like it better.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 03:24 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Flytrap is out I also have other tanks in the works for transfering my froglets to when I get them done. Does anyone have suggestions on getting the background filled in? I have a peatmoss/titebond background with live moss mixed in. I am hoping the moss will grow out over time, but in the meantime I would like to find some plants that would root to it quickly to fill it in (too much brown behind the brom). Another random question... Has anyone ever used a brackish water setup with darts? I was sold a small "freshwater" snowflake eel that currently is about 6in long. I asked if it was brackish and was assured that it was freshwater only, and infact was told that salinity would harm it. After weilding my google upon arriving home I found that it was neither a snowfake eel nor completely freshwater. This species; Gymnotorax Tile, is best suited to a brackish setup but can "survive" in freshwater. I have another palu in the works and was considering putting the moray in, but I want to give it the best shot by using a brackish setup. What's the ruling on brackish with darts? Or does anyone have a good suggestion for terestrial tankmates for a brackish palu?
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 04:14 AM
inflight's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Big Flats,NY
Posts: 461
Thanks: 10
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

I have one of those broms in my lamasi tank. It has been growing for a year now and has sprouted 2 more. It is bare-root inside a large cork tube. So, It's not impossible to grow.
Do I hate it and want to yank it out? Yes.
__________________
Thom O.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 04:29 AM
james67's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Birmingham AL
Posts: 3,798
Thanks: 18
Thanked 278 Times in 189 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireKat View Post
Flytrap is out I also have other tanks in the works for transfering my froglets to when I get them done. Does anyone have suggestions on getting the background filled in? I have a peatmoss/titebond background with live moss mixed in. I am hoping the moss will grow out over time, but in the meantime I would like to find some plants that would root to it quickly to fill it in (too much brown behind the brom). Another random question... Has anyone ever used a brackish water setup with darts? I was sold a small "freshwater" snowflake eel that currently is about 6in long. I asked if it was brackish and was assured that it was freshwater only, and infact was told that salinity would harm it. After weilding my google upon arriving home I found that it was neither a snowfake eel nor completely freshwater. This species; Gymnotorax Tile, is best suited to a brackish setup but can "survive" in freshwater. I have another palu in the works and was considering putting the moray in, but I want to give it the best shot by using a brackish setup. What's the ruling on brackish with darts? Or does anyone have a good suggestion for terestrial tankmates for a brackish palu?
gymnothorax tile gets pretty big, and they like to move quite a bit. they need to be in a tank that they can not get out of because they will escape. id suggest a 29 fluu of water or larger for these guys. my suggestion is research research research.

james
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 03:02 PM
tclipse's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 1,775
Thanks: 68
Thanked 162 Times in 106 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

I wouldn't put G. tile with any terrestrial species, anything that fell in the water would be lunchmeat. And PDF's don't mix with brackish anyways.. amphibs + salt = ...well, remember pouring salt on slugs as a kid?

Good brackish palu setups (minus the eel ) -

-Indian Dwarf Mudskippers, Endler's Livebearers & Fiddlers (yes, some of the endler's fry get eaten, boo hoo)

-Archerfish & crickets

IME, one way or another, that eel is going to end up pretty much by himself. The question is just whether you're willing to do it the easy way, or learn the hard way.
__________________
Teddy
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 04:15 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtclipse01 View Post
I wouldn't put G. tile with any terrestrial species, anything that fell in the water would be lunchmeat. And PDF's don't mix with brackish anyways.. amphibs + salt = ...well, remember pouring salt on slugs as a kid?

Good brackish palu setups (minus the eel ) -

-Indian Dwarf Mudskippers, Endler's Livebearers & Fiddlers (yes, some of the endler's fry get eaten, boo hoo)

-Archerfish & crickets

IME, one way or another, that eel is going to end up pretty much by himself. The question is just whether you're willing to do it the easy way, or learn the hard way.
Once again this is why I post.... The Easy Way Its fine for him to have his own tank, I just wanted to make sure first. I have done a good bit of research on him and it looked like he wouldn't bother anything bigger than his mouth from those that were keeping them, but that may have been in reference to other fish and not terestrial inhabitants. The next palu I was working on was a good bit bigger and would have that kind of water space for him along with some good caves/hidding holes. I may just plant it top side and make the water portion the feature there. And the brackish bit makes sense with the amphibians, I just didn't know if low saninity 1.005 sg or so would be detrimental, but I can only assume it would be. I may put some bigger fish in with mr. eel, along with another eel (they seem to do ok together as long as there are other fish as well).
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 04:18 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: 1st Post, 1st Viv/Palu

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflight View Post
I have one of those broms in my lamasi tank. It has been growing for a year now and has sprouted 2 more. It is bare-root inside a large cork tube. So, It's not impossible to grow.
Do I hate it and want to yank it out? Yes.
Good to know that it can survive Is there anything special that you have had to do to keep it alive? Also, why do you hate it? Is it just harder to care for or more prone to spotting?

And thanks guys for all the help. My future frogs and I really appreciate it
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
liquid nail for palu or viva eddy planer Parts & Construction 8 10-25-2009 03:24 PM
Kyle's going to post his 10,000th post Pirateglow The Lounge 1 12-16-2008 06:50 AM
Pinner's Palu (pic heavy) Pinner scape Member's Frogs & Vivariums 10 11-02-2008 08:06 PM
Dimitri J's palu (80 cm-40cm-60cm) dimitri J Member's Frogs & Vivariums 34 07-17-2008 11:47 PM
First palu and frogs -Willem- Member's Frogs & Vivariums 7 10-11-2007 01:25 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.