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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2009, 12:42 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

I gotta say I love these vivs. I have thought of this as a concept for exhibits at work promoting pack in pack out showing ecosystems up close full of trash. However these look to good and may encourage dumping! jk.... What a great concept though you did a stellar job man the trash almost looks like it has been decomposing in place for years. love it!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:06 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

I understand that. I use sterilite containers and wash sinks for my breeders tanks. I wanted people to know that they do well in spite of the trash. Not that our trashplies make good habitat. The reason I went to trash is that anything natural can be "disturbed and the "trash" you had in the tanks doesn`t really represent our disturbance, it represents our pollution. I have seen many disturbed areas that were logged that created better environments for amphibians without trash. My point was that they survive in a disturbed area in spite of the trash. No one has tested what might be happening from film cannister tads and if they are making it generations down the road or if there are differences in genetalia size or anything of the sort. There could be stores and sinks in the trash populations and only tads raised in glass are making it to breeding age, we just don`t know. I wanted to show the difference between disturbance and trash piles.

I can make a list of materials I`ve used and brought successive generations to breeding but trash piles contain a lot of containers and substances I haven`t used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylsdale View Post
Also, just to clarify, I originally was just mentioning disturbed areas...not trash heaps. I don't think we can set natural utopias against unnatural wastelands and have those be the only options: there are many phases in between, and the frogs do very well, regardless of how we may or may not like the aesthetics.



Then all sorts of things become suspect: what about people using film canisters for deposition or plastic containers for tad rearing? Or petri dishes for eggs and/or water pools? Or the INIBICO project nailing plastic jugs to trees to acquire tads?

I have to agree with Ed: so much dilution takes place in the wild that the aquatic ecosystem in most of these containers (natural or otherwise) should stay pretty "clean" and any possible toxins will most likely decrease over time. All that aside, all the debris I've placed in my tanks so far is metal:


Last edited by Roadrunner; 10-28-2009 at 03:09 PM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2009, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

And you mentioned trash in your first post in this thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by skylsdale View Post
In talking with people who have traveled to areas of Central America and visited populations of D. auratus and O. pumilio, one of the things I noticed is there comments about how they would often find frogs in trash piles and among human debris (some of the highest population densities I've heard people recount were in piles of garbage). These species seem pretty adaptive to disturbed areas and things like bottles, cans, bedpans--pretty much any vessel that can hold water--become excellent tadpole deposition sites.

In an attempt to make aspects of my pumilio and auratus enclosures as biotopically correct as possible, over the last year I've been experimenting with adding various bits of garbage and refuse. I started with some old beer bottles, but the water in those would turn rank as they didn't get washed out frequently enough and would fill up with dead fly carcasses. Old pieces of metal debris, however, rusty and aged with moss and lichen, have worked out really well and add an interesting element to the enclosures. The vast majority of it is just for looks, but in some tanks the only suitable deposition sites are cans, tins, etc. with collected water in them.

I recently set up some new vert tanks and had my camera, so I thought I would share a few images. Things will obviously look better when things start growing in and start looking nice and grungy:









Sometimes, turning over cans and pieces of metal, you find one of these:



This is a peek inside a 30 gal tank that has been going for a while. You can see some fairly recently added cans and debris, but there are other pieces that have become completely covered with moss and epiphytes:

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2009, 08:42 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm View Post
I wanted to show the difference between disturbance and trash piles.
Aaron, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here because I think to some extent we're just talking past each other on this.

Also, just to clarify, I consider trash piles to be disturbance...but within the greater habitat that a frog lives in. The "litter" in my tanks is disturbance. And subjectively I agree with you: I don't like this stuff cluttering up and polluting ANY environment, let alone the one in which these amazing animals live. But objectively I don't think we have the data to outright state that it's bad for them...because in a developed or degraded environment, this litter/trash/debris might actually be creating alternative deposition sites in place of the natural ones that are being removed.
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Old 10-29-2009, 06:17 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Very nice Ron. I see you've expanded a bit past the tincs huh
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylsdale View Post
I don't think we have the data to outright state that it's bad for them...because in a developed or degraded environment, this litter/trash/debris might actually be creating alternative deposition sites in place of the natural ones that are being removed.
Likely the case, in my opinion. Similar cases happen all the time with many types of animals. One great example is what happens with all the cans and bottles on the bottom of the Chesapeake Bay. Almost every one has an oyster goby, striped blenny, or feather blenny living inside. These fish make their nest inside of gaping, empty oyster shells. Now with most of the oyster reefs destroyed, its actually far easier to find these species around trash and bottles then around oysters. The bottles/cans are actually offer better protection from predators then the shells as well.

Of course this is taking in the consideration of the refuse being inert. Glass bottles are relatively harmless......
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2009, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

An interesting study on munciple dumps..

ScienceDirect - Marine Pollution Bulletin : Ecotoxicological effects of a semi-submerged municipal dump (Castle harbour, Bermuda) on the Calico scallop Argopecten gibbus


and one on uptake of mercury and cadmium contamination from soils.

http://www.helsinki.fi/biosci/enviro...jat/Publ13.pdf
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Old 10-31-2009, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

I have seen many a blue jean pumilio in my jaunts through Costa Rica and have found them all over including dump sites, inside rusted out cans, tires filled with water containing frogs, mosquitos and tads. MAN I AM TIRED... it's 4:48am on the East Coast.. night night.. Peter
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2009, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Boo-t-ful...happy halloween
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2009, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Nature has taken on a new meaning huh?
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2009, 05:39 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Walked into the frog room the other morning and found some fresh tracks...

mordoria likes this.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2009, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

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Nature has taken on a new meaning huh?
It's all nature - there's no us and them. We're just a bunch of very successful primates - thinking that we're somehow separate from natural processes, feedback loops, population dynamics, etc. doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That doesn't mean that, on our current path, we've got a bright future in front of us but we might not be the first species to experience suicidal success (I'm thinking of the Medea hypothesis).
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2009, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

I like the look of the tanks!!!
I was researching Pumilios and came across an article that stated that Pumilios are recolonizing near "human" habitations.
I had the same idea but it was with colored drinking glasses and broken pieces of ceramic.

Good Job!

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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 11-06-2009, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Nice setups!

I can see both points of view on the disturbed habitat debate. Personally I would say that with the extreme sensitivities these animals have to disturbances and toxins and such, that the mere fact that they are capable of surviving and breeding in a disturbed area indicates its viability. I can see how a high population density can allow for a greater chance for a disease to move through and damage the population faster, however a thing to note could be that frogs found in these disturbed areas could have a greater "resistance" or greater "immunity" to many of the things that would kill wild population individuals due to the fact that they were raised in an environment with levels of these pollutants/diseases. I'm thinking less of a direct adaptation as low level accumulation allowing for the frog's system to be able to withstand these abnormally hazardous conditions.

In any rate I've seen a saltwater tank setup with nothing but garbage in it, and its a design I've been intending on mimicking one day, so I think its cool to see someone doing something similar with a viv.

Also, if you've actually been to these places where these frogs live and have seen the millions of bacteria/fungi/plants species that inhabit it, you'd be surprised that any of them are even able to live at all. Truth is these things are much more hardy than we give them credit, its just because we try to scale down their habitat into a 55gallon tank that we find them challenging. They were all over the place both times I visited Costa Rica. Hell an arataus came out of my shower drain one time and hopped around in the shower with me. Kind of amusing, and awkward.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

I have to say that I love this idea! I have seen displays similar to this at several zoos that use "garbage" in fish display tanks but I have never seen it utilized for an amphibian species. I doubt I can talk them into doing this at the zoo I work at, though. Anyway, this is a great thread and an awesome example of this idea. Thanks for sharing!
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

This has been a fascinating post to read, thanks!
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Any updates Ron?
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Not really...except for the fact that this is just how I work with my tanks. As far as the images I posted at the beginning of this thread, some of the junk I took out, some has remained, and some of the vivariums have been completely renovated.

The image below is where I am keeping a few extra vittatus--you can see there is an old rusty can forming sort of a "lean-to" toward the front. One of the frogs has staked this can out as their shelter and can always be found underneath it.

With such a narrow footprint in a lot of these tanks (many of them are vertically-oriented 18 gal aquariums) I've found that cans with the tops and bottoms missing help provide different layers in the tank, allowing plants and bromeliads to grow over the top of them, but still providing an extra 'level' for frogs to pass through and hide in, breaking up the visual and spatial views they have of one another.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Hey skylsdale, what species of bromeliads are in the tanks at the beginning of this thread? Thanks
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2011, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Various species...not completely sure. Probably some "Fireball" and at least a few N. ampullacaea. Other than that I just received them as random pups from folks.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylsdale View Post
Various species...not completely sure. Probably some "Fireball" and at least a few N. ampullacaea. Other than that I just received them as random pups from folks.
Ok, I was thinking the plain ones might be fireballs but thought I'd check. Thanks.
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Old 11-02-2011, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

I love it.
You are weird. And wonderful.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:07 PM
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Lmao... too funny..

Love the setups, very simple but incredible looking viv's...

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do the frogs get tetanus shots
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Old 11-27-2011, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/bre...tml#post671432
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: Dis-biotopic displays

Bumping a VERY old post- but I keep returning to it!

Do these vivs still exist, and did anyone else do similar?
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