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  • 1 Post By DPfarr
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Old 05-14-2020, 03:02 AM
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Default My jungle.

Hello all, I guess a little background is in order. I’ve kept reef tanks for almost 15 years and veiled and panther chameleons in the past. I did have a couple leucs in a small Vivarium that I purchased already set up. That endeavor lasted about a year or so but we decided we had our hands full already and re-homed the leucs. Years later we find ourselves almost tankless save for some holdovers from my clownfish breeding days that I just can’t let go of.

Currently we’ve been in the house for almost 5 years and I wanted to get something going. I thought about a small terrarium but the idea kept growing and naturally frogs came to mind. The wife always like them so that was an easy sell. I have a bunch of tanks left over from my reefing days so I grabbed a 20x20x20 cube and went to work. The wife found a 12x12x15 exoterra locally and decided she wanted her own frogs, that tank came together first. The tank we had our leucs in in the past was of similar size and they were happy and healthy so I didn’t think much about the size. After all so many people breed them in the same sized tanks but after doing some reading to refresh my memory on I’m not so sure what i want to put in that tank. Of course this is after the tank is completely done, planted and stocked with microfauna. Any suggestions on inhabitants that might be suitable for a tank that size would be appreciated. I post a few pics as soon as I figure out how, lol.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:04 PM
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If you’re asking about the 12x12x15 for habitation, I wouldn’t want to put something mobile in a cubic foot of space. Just having plants is pretty dope.
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Old 05-14-2020, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

Welcome to the forum.

Yeah, people do keep animals in all sorts of enclosures that are somewhere south of minimum. Our recommendations here tend more toward "best practices" rather than "they might not die in there", so I agree that starting with a larger viv (or much better: starting by researching and choosing a species of frog, and then setting up an ideal enclosure for it) is the best advice.
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Old 05-14-2020, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

How about you set the other tank up for a nice pair of dart frogs, you breed 'em, and use the little tank as a grow out? You would even have a while for the little guy to grow in before you would need it for your froglets :-)

Mark
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Old 05-15-2020, 12:53 AM
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Thanks for the welcome and replies. Finding info is a bit easier now than it was many years ago. I should have done more reading now before I started building but I got a little over zealous and figured my past experience would serve to get started. Oh well no harm no foul, a froglet grow out might be a good idea if we ever get there.

Meanwhile the 20x20x20 got planted today. It looks like a good start, just needs to grow in a bit. I’ll let it fill in and add a few more plants as I find them available. Finding anything right now could be a challenge, at least finding everything in one place anyway. I want to try an orchid or two in that tank and maybe more marcgravia.

We decided what we wanted for inhabitants but it looks like dart frogs are in short supply now a days? Everywhere we look they are sold out. I’m in no rush since the tanks have to settle in anyway but the way it looks it might be some time before anything is occupied. The wife wanted a pair Brazilian yellow heads and the plan for me is a couple fine spot azureus. It does give me some time to find a good deal on a new tank for her though.

Also if anyone could help with posting pics or maybe a link it would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 05-15-2020, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

That sounds like a good plan :-) Since you both seem to have larger darts in mind, I think it's even more important that you don't use the 12x12 tank for adults. As for posting, I use Imgur. You just make an account, upload pictures, then, when you click on one of those pictures, it shows you several links that you can copy and paste. I use the Linked BBCode. Some other have said that they use the Tapatalk app on their phones for this purpose, but I don't always have the pictures I want on my phone.

Best of luck finding plants, frogs, etc. I will say that if you broaden out your search to slightly different morphs (cobalts as well as Brazilian Yellow Heads? More than one auratus morph? Not in the same tanks, of course) you might have more success in finding what you want. Try to find local breeders and see what they have. That's by far the safest and most rewarding way to get new frogs.

Mark
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Old 05-15-2020, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

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Try to find local breeders and see what they have. That's by far the safest and most rewarding way to get new frogs.



Mark
This is great advice, and finding someone local will also help you make connections that will come in handy. You never know when you might have your fruit fly cultures crash.
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Old 05-15-2020, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

An empty enclosure is like a dream weaver. Other places and representations could kindle an enabling flame to use it for a vivarium but dont do it!

I refused to carry the 12X12 footprint because thats what people would choose and say "..for now" There are no starter kits with animals. That starter kit stuff is a phrase lifted from inanimate hobbies.

No matter what others may say its not enough. But how excellent for you guys to have an extra tank for froglets, emergencies, etc.
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Old 05-15-2020, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

We have been looking at other morphs in the same realm of color but even still itís slim pickings. According to some people weíve spoke to a lot of stock is already spoken for. It also could be that we just donít know where to look. Itíd be great to find a local breeder but Iím in CT and there doesnít seem to be going on up here. We used to go to a show in white plains NY but all those events are all canceled for the foreseeable future.

Also thanks for the tip on pics. Letís see if this works. This one should by the small tank.

Iíd like to get some climbing plants to grow up the background in time but this has been together for 3-4 weeks

Here is the 20x20x20. Its a work in progress but has plants in it. I need more plants I think and Iíd like more moss. Just not sure what kind to get. The ones Iíve seen in other peopleís tanks that I like I havenít been able to find for sale. Anyway here itís is.



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Old 05-15-2020, 06:47 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

Few more.






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Old 05-15-2020, 07:42 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

Both tanks are being lit by 30w led spotlights. So far so good with the lights. I have a mistking system left over from when I used to keep chameleons. That will go in the bigger tank and when we get the other tank Iíll build a custom rack for both tanks that matches the rest of the room and both can utilize the misting system. For now it just some good old hand sprayers.


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Old 05-15-2020, 08:56 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

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For now it just some good old hand sprayers.
Honestly, unless you cannot be home once a day to mist, this is the best way.
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Old 05-16-2020, 04:41 AM
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Default Re: My jungle.

The spray bottles arenít bad I just have the misting system already and for times where no one is around to mist itís one less thing for house sitters to worry about. I have the lights on timers too otherwise the tanks would be on at all different hours. Here another pic from the front. I have some moss that I picked up from neherpetoculture but I like the moss Iíve seen called ďlow growing tropical mossĒ. Though I havenít been able to find anything by that name. If anyone can give me a heads up on a good place to find moss itíd be much appreciated.



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Old 05-18-2020, 08:46 PM
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So I got a lot of ideas for this tank from a couple people on YouTube. One in particular would spray great stuff on the glass, carve it down, and cover it with hydrolon. I didn’t get past the great stuff. It just wouldn’t adhere completely to the glass, it was the red can. So I scraped it all off and just used silicone to adhere the hydrolon to the background. This doesn’t give the dimension that applying the great stuff first does but in time the hydrolon will be covered in vines and moss anyway so I was ok with it.

I did read that the blue can of great stuff works much better so I tried that to adhere my manzanita branches to the glass and it worked, at least for a little while. I made sure the glass was clean and I wiped it down with alcohol before applying. It was completely dried and seemed like it was going to hold. I painted all the great stuff with drylok and all looked well for a while but this morning I found one of the branches had popped off the glass. Now I’m debating on how to reattach the branch and wether or not the other branch will fail in time as well. I‘m thinking to use silicone to adhere the foam to the glass. And I’m also wondering if I should pull the other branch off and silicone it back in place preemptively. I’d hate to have to deal with this when there are frogs in the tank.
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

Branch to glass, I always do silicone. You could then do Great Stuff around the siliconed branches if you need to. I prefer cracked cork mosaics as opposed to Great Stuff and Hygolon, but to each his or her own. What I do know from experience is that Great Stuff is not as good at adhering to glass as silicone is.

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Old 05-18-2020, 09:45 PM
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Branch to glass, I always do silicone. You could then do Great Stuff around the siliconed branches if you need to. I prefer cracked cork mosaics as opposed to Great Stuff and Hygolon, but to each his or her own. What I do know from experience is that Great Stuff is not as good at adhering to glass as silicone is.



Mark
Completely Agreed!
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Old 05-18-2020, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.



This is the pad in question, should I just apply silicone to the foam and adhere to the glass or should I remove all the foam then adhere to glass?
This is the first tank Iím building so itís a learning curve I guess. The hydrolon sounded good as far as absorbing water and promoting growth and all that so I figured Iíd give it a shot.

We are discussing a new tank to replace the small tank. We found a used 18x18x18 exoterra locally that I believe should work well for tincs though we are debating if the extra cost of the insitu tank is worth it. Honestly the tank being fly proof is probably the biggest selling point though it does look really nice in the pics.


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Old 05-19-2020, 12:40 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

your doing a great job with this enclosure, I cant wait to see it all grown in. I've always liked cypress knees. Keep up the great work!
As far as the 12x12x18s, they are right. they do good if you have a single frog that you have waiting to match up with something or they are good for froglet grow outs. but housing frogs long term... no I had some vanzolini breed successfully in one but a tank that size just doesnt let the frogs show off their behavior or "personality" if you will. Since your a fish guy you could understand this. Standard 55 gallon fish tanks are horrible designs because 18" deep is not enough depth for the fish to feel comfortable in the enclosure. when you expand it to 24" you will get alot more breeding behavior out of your cichlids.
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Old 05-19-2020, 12:50 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

I forgot to say that I have been extremely disappointed with cypress knees in vivarium conditions. They look fantastic and are easy to plant, etc. but they have not lasted in any of my tanks. I have had probably 20 of them (I bought a big order one time and had a few others from tanks I have bought that already had them in there) rot in about 2 years. The only ones that are still around are the ones that I have completely encompassed in plants. Don't plan on them being long-term hardscape, enjoy them while they last. Maybe you will have better luck than I have.

Mark
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Old 05-19-2020, 02:13 PM
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Ive had the same cypress knee in one of my enclosures for 7 plus years. no issues. Are there different variants of cypress trees maybe it depends on the type of cypress tree or the location of where it was collected?
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Old 05-19-2020, 04:23 PM
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The big group of them I bought was from Florida somewhere. Not sure where. Maybe there are different species? All I know is that all but the one or two that were completely covered in plants/moss were rotten to the point that they came apart in my hands when I moved them. There were some huge ones, too - like 2 feet tall. It was very disappointing, too, because they were gorgeous. Like I said, I hope you guys have better luck than I did. I won't be investing in any more of them :-)

Mark
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Old 05-19-2020, 04:30 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

I tried cypress knees a long time ago, and also found they rotted too fast to be useful.

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For this spot, I would envelope the point of attachment with silicone. Maybe 1/2" ring around the glass, extending another 1/2" up the wood. I would not trust the polyurethane alone.
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Old 05-19-2020, 05:43 PM
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There are at least two species in the US, Taxodium ascendens and T. distichum.

https://gardeningsolutions.ifas.ufl....d-cypress.html

I couldn't find any reference to differences in rot resistance between species, but only between old growth and new growth cutting -- as in cedar cut for lumber nowdays, the younger trees being cut are not very resistant to decay.

https://conifersociety.org/conifers/taxodium/
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Old 05-19-2020, 10:52 PM
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Thanks for the input and the heads up on the cypress knee. It’s too bad they don’t last. The upside is I have plenty of manzanita to replace It with when it does go. There is a guy on Facebook that sells branch packages at a very good price compared to everything else I’ve found. We have enough branches to build a couple more enclosures.

Yeah at this point we are just going to keep the small tank as a backup for froglets or if we ever need to temporarily house a frog for any reason. Or just to look cool, everyone seems to like it.

If anyone has any ideas on a good place to find frogs I’d appreciate the heads up. Everywhere we’ve reached out to just doesn’t have what we are looking for or doesn’t even respond. I’m on a waiting list for some fine spot azureus, I have no idea how long that might actually take but I guess having my name down better than nothing, lol. And the tank needs time to be ready anyway so that’s fine. I haven’t been able to track down anyone local to CT unfortunately.
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Old 05-19-2020, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

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If anyone has any ideas on a good place to find frogs Iíd appreciate the heads up. Everywhere weíve reached out to just doesnít have what we are looking for or doesnít even respond. Iím on a waiting list for some fine spot azureus, I have no idea how long that might actually take but I guess having my name down better than nothing, lol. And the tank needs time to be ready anyway so thatís fine. I havenít been able to track down anyone local to CT unfortunately.
If you can't find anyone local or on the board then you might try one of the facebook groups or mewe. (I had never heard of mewe until I signed up for a facebook group - basically its just an alternative to facebook but there is a dart frog classifieds mewe group that seems to have a good number of breeders). Both facebook and mewe have a lot of breeders and you can message them for more details about their frogs.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:59 AM
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Quote:
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If anyone has any ideas on a good place to find frogs Iíd appreciate the heads up. Everywhere weíve reached out to just doesnít have what we are looking for or doesnít even respond. Iím on a waiting list for some fine spot azureus, I have no idea how long that might actually take but I guess having my name down better than nothing, lol. And the tank needs time to be ready anyway so thatís fine. I havenít been able to track down anyone local to CT unfortunately.
Some of the established vendors (JF, BJ, and the like) have email notifications (or, like you mentioned, 'waiting lists') that you can sign up for. You can also post wanted ads here. Perusing the old ads here as well as on other sites (notably, the classified site for selling fauna) can give you an idea of where breeders are located, and you can PM them to see what they might have available. (You may have not met the minimum post count, etc. for accessing the marketplace here.)

A large portion of the live animal trade is not based on stocking a thousand animals so the customer has many choices; that would be cost prohibitive, and animals aren't produced like toilet paper, where if demand increases you can just hire some more people to work on the assembly line (and even then...). Part of what makes this a 'hobby' and not just another way to spend money foolishly is that it takes some work and time and patience to find the animals you desire. Looking for the right animals for a year isn't excessive, if you have one specific species/morph/locale in mind.

We froggers are lucky that darts aren't strongly seasonal breeders; other herp species have waiting lists that you might be too far down the list on this fall and have to wait for breeding next fall. Finding a Lampropeltis zonata algama, or even one of the more desirable locales of L. alterna, can take a couple years.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
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Some of the established vendors (JF, BJ, and the like) have email notifications (or, like you mentioned, 'waiting lists') that you can sign up for. You can also post wanted ads here. Perusing the old ads here as well as on other sites (notably, the classified site for selling fauna) can give you an idea of where breeders are located, and you can PM them to see what they might have available. (You may have not met the minimum post count, etc. for accessing the marketplace here.)



A large portion of the live animal trade is not based on stocking a thousand animals so the customer has many choices; that would be cost prohibitive, and animals aren't produced like toilet paper, where if demand increases you can just hire some more people to work on the assembly line (and even then...). Part of what makes this a 'hobby' and not just another way to spend money foolishly is that it takes some work and time and patience to find the animals you desire. Looking for the right animals for a year isn't excessive, if you have one specific species/morph/locale in mind.



We froggers are lucky that darts aren't strongly seasonal breeders; other herp species have waiting lists that you might be too far down the list on this fall and have to wait for breeding next fall. Finding a Lampropeltis zonata algama, or even one of the more desirable locales of L. alterna, can take a couple years.
What he said :-)

I'm actually waiting myself for my next frogs, I've located a breeder of them with tadpoles in the water/froglets that have just emerged from the water, but which won't be easy for sale until August.
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Old 05-20-2020, 05:02 AM
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I don’t do Facebook or any type of social media so that makes it harder to find people sometimes. I don’t have access to the classified section yet, not sure how long you have to wait. I’m in no rush just like to have a solid plan, I’d like to find a breeder and get on a list and know we will get what we’d like, eventually. I actually enjoy the build as much as the finished product. I like to build things and diy whatever I could. I have a spring tail culture started, I might try isopods too. My little one on the other hand is wondering where the are frogs that were promised, lol. It’s a lesson in patience for him.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gar732 View Post
If anyone has any ideas on a good place to find frogs I’d appreciate the heads up. Everywhere we’ve reached out to just doesn’t have what we are looking for or doesn’t even respond. I’m on a waiting list for some fine spot azureus, I have no idea how long that might actually take but I guess having my name down better than nothing, lol. And the tank needs time to be ready anyway so that’s fine. I haven’t been able to track down anyone local to CT unfortunately.
Some of the established vendors (JF, BJ, and the like) have email notifications (or, like you mentioned, 'waiting lists') that you can sign up for. You can also post wanted ads here. Perusing the old ads here as well as on other sites (notably, the classified site for selling fauna) can give you an idea of where breeders are located, and you can PM them to see what they might have available. (You may have not met the minimum post count, etc. for accessing the marketplace here.)

A large portion of the live animal trade is not based on stocking a thousand animals so the customer has many choices; that would be cost prohibitive, and animals aren't produced like toilet paper, where if demand increases you can just hire some more people to work on the assembly line (and even then...). Part of what makes this a 'hobby' and not just another way to spend money foolishly is that it takes some work and time and patience to find the animals you desire. Looking for the right animals for a year isn't excessive, if you have one specific species/morph/locale in mind.

We froggers are lucky that darts aren't strongly seasonal breeders; other herp species have waiting lists that you might be too far down the list on this fall and have to wait for breeding next fall. Finding a Lampropeltis zonata algama, or even one of the more desirable locales of L. alterna, can take a couple years.
If SM means who I think he means when he refers to BJ then that would be a good place to look. BJTS is out in western MA, so he's pretty close to you. He also prefers that you pick the frogs up at your local post office or in my case the annex. Beats having the frogs spend an extra couple of hours being bumped around on a cold/hot delivery vehicle.
Another local vendor who I've chatted with is The FW ( think the dog whisperer but replace the D with Fr ). Very knowledgeable, pretty sure he's up in NH, and I believe he does post on the classifieds that begin with fauna. Hes also got price lists on a different social platform that I found hard to navigate but that's probably because I'm not savvy enough technology wise. Very important to stay local, like 500 mile radius at best, cuts down on time the animal is being bounced around.
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Old 05-25-2020, 07:25 AM
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Thanks. I didn’t realize some of those guys were so close. If things were better I’d take the ride to mass, it isn’t that far. Maybe in time I might still.
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Old 05-30-2020, 03:46 AM
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Time for an update, we found some cobalts that we decided to make a move on. We were prepared to wait a few months for some Brazilian yellow heads but these guy were available, they are similar, and the wife really likes them (which honestly is the most important factor) so here we are.



At first I thought the small tank was a bad thing but as it turns out itís perfect for a couple froglets so Iím glad we have it. Itís been set up for just about a month now and the plants are established enough where we are seeing growth. There are a ton of spring tails in the tank and I did put a culture of dwarf purple isopods in there, though I havenít seen them since. We just got them on Thursday and one guy is eating his fill but the other is a bit more shy and Iíve only seen him eat once. I figure our presence probably doesnít help so we try to keep our distance to give him a chance. We will work on the new tank and move them over once they get a bit bigger. Anyone have any ideas on when would be a good time to give them a bit more space?

I also did some work to my tank.


I added that piece of drift wood to support that branch that had come loose while the silicone was drying and I just decided to leave it there just in case it ever wanted to work itís way loose again. But then I had to remove the cypress knee which is a shame because I really liked it but I can still use it on the cobalts new tank.

I also added some new bromeliads and a few other plants, including my first orchid. Itís a ludisia discolor. Itís supposed to be an easier to keep jewel orchid and it was inexpensive so I figured itís a good place to start. Once these plants grow out a bit it should fill in nicely. I have some marcgravia rectiflora, peperomia emarginella, and a solanum species to fill in the hydrolon. Iíd like to try a few more orchids and some other vines but Iíll let what I have fill in first to see where there is room. I have a few different mosses and I plan to try a couple local varieties to see how they do.

The plan is still to keep a couple fine spot azureus in this tank but I feel like the branches and bromeliads might be lost on them, based on what Iíve read anyway. I was wondering if maybe some pomilio might make better use of this tank. I like the bastimento. Just not sure if they are any more difficult to keep, still have to do some reading, but I still want the azureus. So many options, makes me wish I had the space that some of you have for all these frogs. I do want to keep it manageable for the time being. Iíve seen people burn themselves out with too many reef tanks way to quickly. I donít want to make that mistake.


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Old 07-04-2020, 12:31 AM
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Default Re: My jungle.

Havenít updated in a bit but not much has happened. The cobalts are doing well and their tank is growing. I ordered a couple orchids for my tank to test the waters with orchids, they should be here soon. I also picked up a new cutting of marcgravia Puerto Rico. Nice big piece that should do well I hope. Everything Iíve gotten so far has already been rooted so this is my first cutting.

I have to get the ventilation figured out on this tank. I think Iím going to have to get a fan or two as Iím getting some mold in a couple spots. Itíll still be a least a month or more before I get frogs in there so I have time to fine tune it. I like the way the tank came out but I wish Iíd used a front opening tank. I feel like that would have helped with ventilation some. I had this tank and it is low iron glass so it looks good but probably not the best functioning option.

Iím planning on doing a plant tour of the tank just in case anyone cared to see whatís in there. Also Iím not good with keeping up with the names of stuff and I figure itíd be a good way to keep track of whatís actually in there. I guess Iíll throw a pic in too just to compare to the last. There has been some growth though probably not very noticeable.



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Old 07-04-2020, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: My jungle.

Couple more pics




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Old 07-05-2020, 03:45 AM
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Default Re: My jungle.

Can't comment on pros and con's of your set up, but I really admire your photography! Kudos and keep the great pics coming. I'm sure they will help others pick up on any red flags they might see as you go along (and before you get too far along!). I'll have to remember to do the same.
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Old 07-06-2020, 05:17 PM
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That should look great when moss grows on the fabric.
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Old Yesterday, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by xdfireguy View Post
Can't comment on pros and con's of your set up, but I really admire your photography! Kudos and keep the great pics coming. I'm sure they will help others pick up on any red flags they might see as you go along (and before you get too far along!). I'll have to remember to do the same.
Thanks, I actually have a nice camera with a macro lens but I’ve yet to break it for this tank. I think I might now that you’ve reminded me. I’ve added some more ventilation and it seems to be working well and humidity is still good. I think I might be ok.
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Old Yesterday, 08:19 AM
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That should look great when moss grows on the fabric.
I’ve added some moss to a couple spots to try and encourage some growth. I’m also thinking about trying a slurry though I need to do some more reading on it before I try.

And I’ve finally secured some frogs (fine spot azureus) Should be a few more weeks before they are ready but they are bought and paid for some it’s now only a matter of time.
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