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Old 09-16-2008, 09:14 PM
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Default New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

The girlfriend and I are starting a new business off of New England Wholesale Florist Supply which we manage currently. Hopefully this time next year we'll be successfully breeding Leucomelas, Azureus, Enigma LGs, Tang LGs, and some RAPTOR LGs. We'll also be handling a HEAVY amount of terrarium supplies - but I'll save the info 'till when we're a sponsor of the forum.

We had some space behind the new kitchen so we started building.








That's the waste water evac system. It pumps outside the house whenever it's full.

The outlet of the waste water pump.

Painted, doors, shelves.

Easily detachable PVC connections all fed by a reverse-osmosis reservoir.

The R/O reservoir. (the misting system will be using this also)

The drain/fill valves.

The R/O system.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Cage construction!!!






Glass & Plexi cutting & drilling.


These are for the Leucomelas. NOT the azureus who will have 10H tanks.











We have a HerpMist misting system in the mail - all the vertical cages will have at least one nozzle. As they are now - they sit between 80 and 90% humidity. The fans have been added to keep them to a MAX of 80F. Originally the florescent lights caused them to overheat. Nightly it goes down to 74 degrees. Mid day the top of the cage hits 80-81F - bottom stays right around 79F.

And for the leopard geckos:



(I'm MUCH more comfortable w/LGs. I've been dealing with them for 4 years now. )

Comments/questions appreciated.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Looks like you're off to a good start, lots of thought put into the water system. Seems like alot of weight on those shelves for just using the L brackets. Keep up the good design and good luck with your new endeavor.
Scott
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

^^ haha yeah no kidding with the brackets. The bottom shelf uses uber beefy 1/8" steel brackets. The other shelves use the cheesy "stanley" 90s since they will be holding about ~1/2 the weight as the bottom shelf.

Oh - and btw - the drainage between cages is NOT DIRECTLY CONNECTED (to prevent cross-tank contamination). Each drains to a big pipe below the shelf with a collector beneath each cage... If that makes sense.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Everything looks really nice. How do you mount the metal hardware to the acrylic?

Sam
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

lookin good there. why use 10 H for azures though??? thats not alot of floorspace.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Nice work. Good luck on the endeavour. Why use RO/DI though? I've read in a few places that its not ideal to use with amphibians as it is hypotonic to them and will cause them to bloat from too much water absorption. Your plants could also benefit from the minerals in the water. I'm guessing you want to avoid mineral deposits but they can always be flushed, wiped away. Why not keep a resorvoir ( Brute can ) of tap water that is allowed to age so the chlorine disapates ?
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

There's lots of contaminants in tap water OTHER than chlorine, that don't dissipate with time. Depending where you live, of course. Each and every city is different. There's one city around here that has trace amounts of uranium in the water!

Make some tadpole tea for the reservoir, just boil the RO or distilled water with some almond, oak, or magnolia leaves (or whatever you want), and add some kinda blackwater extract.

Then it's completely fine (and closest to natural) to spray with RO or distilled.


Room looks great! Goodluck in your ventures.
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Looks very well planned out, your waste water is just pumped outside?
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

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Originally Posted by bellerophon View Post
Looks very well planned out, your waste water is just pumped outside?
lol actually yeah. Right in the back of the garden.

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Originally Posted by james67 View Post
lookin good there. why use 10 H for azures though??? thats not alot of floorspace.
Those cages are for Leucs. I'll post pics of the horizontal cages tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by SS7 View Post
Everything looks really nice. How do you mount the metal hardware to the acrylic?

Sam
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Originally Posted by jejton View Post
Nice work. Good luck on the endeavour. Why use RO/DI though? I've read in a few places that its not ideal to use with amphibians as it is hypotonic to them and will cause them to bloat from too much water absorption. Your plants could also benefit from the minerals in the water. I'm guessing you want to avoid mineral deposits but they can always be flushed, wiped away. Why not keep a resorvoir ( Brute can ) of tap water that is allowed to age so the chlorine disapates ?
I'll deff look into that. It wouldn't be hard at all to add a carbon filtered tank to the mix. I could just use the R/O water for misting and the carbon filtered water for the cage bottoms.
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

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Originally Posted by MeiKVR6 View Post
lol actually yeah. Right in the back of the garden.
I don't mean to come off judgmental but that's rather irresponsible. It looks like you try and take precautions to avoid cross contamination within your collection. why don't you extend that courtesy to your native fauna? Again I don't mean to come across as a dick, just curious on your decision.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by bellerophon View Post
I don't mean to come off judgmental but that's rather irresponsible. It looks like you try and take precautions to avoid cross contamination within your collection. why don't you extend that courtesy to your native fauna? Again I don't mean to come across as a dick, just curious on your decision.
haha no prob. Actually you can't see it in the picture but that area is the "exhaust" area for the entire house. 2 propane heater ducts, the R/O system exhaust water, Propane Water Heater exhaust pipe, and 2 A/C compressors sit right there. Whatever lives in that little 5' wide nook outside the house is destined for death anyways. Hope that doesn't make me sound insensitive but seriously there's no way around the propane heater exhausts... All the exhaust noise keeps everything but the bugs away... The bugs somehow don't mind the constant 200+degree air coming out of the exhaust piping. If they can deal with all the heat and carbon monoxide - i'm sure they won't mind a little used water.

And eariler I mis-typed something. For whatever reason I said 10H for my azureus. They will be in 10 gal tanks - but horizontal. I'll try and get pics up. One cage is partially built - the others are just starting.

...and I broke a cage front this morning when I thought it was latched... It wasn't.
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:49 PM
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I'm not so much concerned about the 5' area near your house as I am the entire area your dumping contaminated water into. Lets take a look at just Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis (Chytrid) for one. As per the CDC's website and many studies, Bd can survive in waste water and soil for up to seven weeks to a year. Not to mention possible contamination of the environment with hook/lungworm, crypto+ etc..
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These results have immediate relevance for disease control and quarantine strategies. Water in contact with amphibians should be regarded as contaminated with B. dendrobatidis for up to at least 7 weeks after last contact with the amphibian. For quarantine purposes, all water, moist soil, and wet fomites imported into a country with amphibians should be regarded as infectious for B. dendrobatidis unless the amphibians are shown to be uninfected. A similar strategy should be adopted when introducing new amphibians into a captive colony or collection. Similarly, water and any items coming into contact with amphibians moved within countries should be regarded as infectious for B. dendrobatidis. In practical terms, storage alone for a period of time should not be used as a means of ensuring water that has been in contact with an amphibian is not contagious. All water and wet soil in contact with an amphibian should be disinfected before discharge into the wastewater system or the natural environment. Amphibians should not be placed into enclosures with water used previously by other amphibians without prior disinfection. Any other wet objects that have been in contact with amphibians should either be disposed of or disinfected before repeat use. Various disinfection strategies have been described (M. L. Johnson et al., unpub. data). The most effective strategies for disinfection are heat (>47C for 30 min), didecyl dimethyl ammonium chloride at >0.0012% final concentration for 2 min, or sodium hypochlorite (>1% for 1 min). To comply with the intentions of Office Internationale des Epizootes listing, amphibians, when moved between countries, should be placed in a different container on arrival; all water, soil, plants, and litter in contact with the amphibian during transport should be adequately disinfected by using techniques capable of killing B. dendrobatidis.
It wouldn't take much extra efford to install a waste water vessel outside that can contain the water until its treated with bleach or other means before releasing into the environment. If you need more info you can take a look at the TWI/ASN recommended guidlines for waste disposal.

You've put so much effort into building your system up right, may as well get that last step in there Looks great otherwise!
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Maybe i'll do that. Wouldn't be too hard to treat with a bleach solution first. We are using a sanitizer already like I said but bleach would work.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jejton View Post
Nice work. Good luck on the endeavour. Why use RO/DI though? I've read in a few places that its not ideal to use with amphibians as it is hypotonic to them and will cause them to bloat from too much water absorption. Your plants could also benefit from the minerals in the water. I'm guessing you want to avoid mineral deposits but they can always be flushed, wiped away. Why not keep a resorvoir ( Brute can ) of tap water that is allowed to age so the chlorine disapates ?
DI water is WAY more pure than RO water, and I did not notice a DI. Dart frogs are not typically soaking in a vessel of water like other amphibians may. The plants should be able to get all the nutrients they need out of the substrate, and frog feces. The benefits of using RO water in your set-up are very numerous, and far outweigh using aged tap water, and with likely much less risk to your animals than with your tap water.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

The drain to outside worries me as well. Why didn't you just add a drain to the sewer when you were building the room? As long as you're going to treat it before dumping that shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not sure why you would just dump waste material outside your house. That seems a little...toxic. Also won't you have problems with freezing?
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Looks like you have been planning this out for a while. Are you going to add some screen over those ventilation holes in your tanks to prevent FF escapes?
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:00 PM
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Looks like you have been planning this out for a while. Are you going to add some screen over those ventilation holes in your tanks to prevent FF escapes?
You can't see it in the pics - but the bottom holes actually DO have a screen over them. I'll post a pic. I figure the top wouldn't need screening since they are flightless, right?

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The drain to outside worries me as well. Why didn't you just add a drain to the sewer when you were building the room? As long as you're going to treat it before dumping that shouldn't be a problem, but I'm not sure why you would just dump waste material outside your house. That seems a little...toxic. Also won't you have problems with freezing?
Freezing - no because of the constant heating of the propane house heaters in that area. It's difficult to describe - but that whole section isn't ground level. It's on top of a big 6 foot retaining wall that was once a compost heap.

I'd have loved to drain to the septic tank - but that room is 5 feet below the waste pipe for the house. So. Pumping outside after sanitization will have to work at least for awhile. I have access to some heavy yet environmentally friendly chemicals that I know will work.
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

ffs can climb glass so yes you would need to cover the holes. they seem to migrate to a tall point as well so top or bottom you need screen.

james
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

looks great! just one thing i think your vent holes are too big and you will hav ea lot of flies escape unless you put some screening on it.
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:41 PM
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Well I guess it's a good thing I posted before I filled the tanks huh?

I'll add some screening.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:45 AM
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...and I broke a cage front this morning when I thought it was latched... It wasn't.
That happened to my 20 vertical tank too. I had to transfer my RETF to another ( inappropriate) tank with my day geckos and he died. It took me forever to get the remnants of the glass off the hinge and I still havent fixed it. Its on my To-Do Eventually list.
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Old 09-18-2008, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

You can also look into using a recirculating ultraviolet sterilizer in your waste water container, to sterilize it before dumping it, although I'm unsure of it's effectiveness against Bd specifically so you'd have to look into that.
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Old 09-18-2008, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Nice setup.

Are you sure those shelves will hold that amount of weight? As the tanks become saturated they will also gain weight.
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Old 09-18-2008, 05:41 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

I was thinking that about the shelf brackets too. I assume you have them bolted into the wall studs and not just the drywall otherwise you are asking for some future heartache.
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Old 09-18-2008, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

first off congrats, everything looks great. but you might want to take those fake vines out, i've used them before and they tend to rot because the inside is just wire wrapped in cardboard. or you could try covering them in silicone and coco, just a thought.
good luck,

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Old 09-18-2008, 11:50 AM
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The brackets are bolted 3" deep straight to the studs. They'll bend before they break - but i'm not worried. Each one has 5 3" wood screws straight to a stud.

The vines might rot?! That's crappy. I suppose I'll see how long they'll last before they start to go "mush" on me.

I'm hoping to have the FF cultures next week and the frogs the week after. I want to leave the cages alone for at least 2 weeks before I introduce life to them.

BTW. You guys DO realize how much more difficult these frogs are as pets than just about EVERYTHING else right?
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Old 09-19-2008, 01:29 PM
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Looks Great. Did you re-silicone the black rim onto the top of the tank prior to standing them up and adding inserts?
You may also want to silicone between the door opening at the top and make a slice when dry. Gap looks 1/4 the size of the holes that need screened.
All in all off to a great start and good luck.
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Old 09-19-2008, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

so you are putting azureus and leucs into ten gallons?? Not enough space. hardly for a pair of vents. I'm also hoping you plan on quarantining and fecaling the darts before introducing? kristy
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Old 09-19-2008, 10:30 PM
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Well, nice to see a another member from Connecticut. I think that makes, let`s see, about 2!!

Remember these highly "dangerous" frogs are illegal here in CT.

John
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:06 PM
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so you are putting azureus and leucs into ten gallons?? Not enough space. hardly for a pair of vents. I'm also hoping you plan on quarantining and fecaling the darts before introducing? kristy
The frogs i'm introducing are coming from the same place. Quarantining won't be necessary in this case. They will be screened @ the herp vet tho just to be safe. For the record - The Leucs will be in 10 gal verticals - only 2 per cage. I've done a whole lot of research on these guys and that is the size MOST breeders use. From what I understand it's a good size for the leucs so long as the cages AREN'T horizontal.

The Azureus cages aren't fully built yet - but again I've seen breeding pairs of Azureus in 10H tanks before. I know Azureus are bigger than the leucs - but of course if it's too small - I suppose we'll have to get bigger vivs. No big deal.
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:07 PM
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Well, nice to see a another member from Connecticut. I think that makes, let`s see, about 2!!

Remember these highly "dangerous" frogs are illegal here in CT.

John
Are they really? haha
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Old 09-21-2008, 04:38 PM
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Ok. To those who don't know - PLEXIGLASS AND SILICONE DO NOT WORK WELL TOGETHER!!!

I just spent 4 hours fixing 3 cages that started to leak. Ugh. Well. At least now they are fixed and **shouldn't** leak again.

I got the (herpmist) misting system installed today. I made my own switch since I don't plan on spending $50.00+ on a misting timer anytime soon.

PICS!








^^^ UGLY! But it needed to be done due to the leaky silicone.


So that's it for now. BTW - Vet says R/O water is fine to use so long as it's changed every other day or so. Bacteria can build up faster with r/o and distilled water than it can on normal tap stuff. It has it's good and bad but I'll stick to this now that it's all set up. Changing all the cages water takes place every day and takes less than 3 minutes thanks to the weird PVC setup.
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Old 09-21-2008, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Maybe worth looking into one one of these for your holding tank: JBJ Submariner UV Sterilizer/Clarifier
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2008, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

I would second the uv sterilizer. I run one on my bucket of misting water for that very reason and they are pretty affordable. Just remember to change the bulb every 6 months.
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Old 09-22-2008, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

The Detroit Zoo adds 1%, by weight, of Instant Ocean salt mix to their R/O water for amphibians. I was told this was to decrease the ion difference between the frog and the water, as well as retard bacterial growth.
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Old 09-22-2008, 02:37 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Wow I thought those UV sterilizers were way more! Maybe i'll pick one up. I was hoping since the holding tank is 100% sealed I wouldn't need to worry - but I guess better safe than sorry.
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Old 09-23-2008, 01:47 AM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

What size tank is your misting reservoir? It looks like 20 gallons at least... which leads me to: seconding thirding and fourthing all the concerns regarding the weight issue Not only on the brackets, but on the studs of the wall. I hope you know who built the house and they didn't cheap out on lumber. All it would take is lazy framer to hang a stud with a large knot in it and you will have big mess on your hands.

Why not get your hands on the HD or Lowes racks we all use? You would be looking at about $150 to cover the area you have now. I would do it for peace of mind alone. I hope we don't scare you off, we (the board) just see the same mistakes over and over again and want to help prevent them.
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Old 09-23-2008, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeiKVR6 View Post
The frogs i'm introducing are coming from the same place. Quarantining won't be necessary in this case. They will be screened @ the herp vet tho just to be safe. For the record - The Leucs will be in 10 gal verticals - only 2 per cage. I've done a whole lot of research on these guys and that is the size MOST breeders use. From what I understand it's a good size for the leucs so long as the cages AREN'T horizontal.

The Azureus cages aren't fully built yet - but again I've seen breeding pairs of Azureus in 10H tanks before. I know Azureus are bigger than the leucs - but of course if it's too small - I suppose we'll have to get bigger vivs. No big deal.
first off. ten gallon horizontals are too small for a pair of any tinc. which includes azureus and leucs. And now you are putting them in ten verticals? sorry if i come off a bit harsh, but by all means trying to help you out. they are barely large enough for a pair of thumbs. My suggestion. i know it may have sucked to build those shelves as well...but replace with some metal racks at HD or something. Get some bigger vivs as well for the tinc sized darts. azureus, auratus, leucs, etc. Nothing bigger than a thumbnail. And even then, the space is very limited for a pair IMO. Don't feel like i am getting down on you, i'm not, and think your viv set-up is great besides the size of the tanks and darts going in and the shelves worry me. we did the same thing for my boxes in a closet once, same way you have yours set-up, and some had buckled. It was a mess. the metal racks at home depot etc can hold 1,000 lbs i believe?? hey, its better to be safe than sorry and also forcing darts to breed in tanks of that size including tinc size is not healthy for them. You wouldnt want to lose a breeding pair due to stress etc woulkd you? It doesnt matter who you get them from, what vet checks them over...they need to be quarantined and fecaled per asn protocol imo. a vet check may not show everything. i have done three fecals spaced apart and the third one come back with hookworm. sux. then you got to start the whole process over again after treatment. and lets not forget there are many things that a vet can not see in a fecal....viruses, chytrid, etc. i know you think i'm coming off as a "know it all" but really trying to help you avoid the mistakes we all have made. leucs and azureus 20 gallon minimum tall not vertical but horizontal per pair. kristy
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Old 09-23-2008, 12:40 PM
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Default Re: New Frog/Gecko Room... AND vivariums... Pic heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kristy55303 View Post
but replace with some metal racks at HD or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dopederson View Post
I hope you know who built the house and they didn't cheap out on lumber.
I built the room myself when I was building the kitchen. That wall has PT 2X4s - the house would literally fall on this room before anything would come off them. 4 3 inch wood screws into EACH bracket - each bracket on a PT 2X4... No worries there. ...at all... I'm sure bad things have happened with people in the past - but I've got a teeny bit of experience. I've completely rebuilt the bottom half of my house (supporting stuff too - not just aesthetics) in the past year so making shelves is pretty freakin' simple as compared to jacking up a house that had fallen on a 6X6 PT beam and replacing the support structure in the basement rooms. I assure you. The shelves will not fail. The metal brackets would bend first anyways but each is rated to 50lbs so 50lbsX6 brackets... And those are the weaker metal brackets I used on the top 2 shelves. Those would be some OBESE cages to make them bend lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kristy55303 View Post
they need to be quarantined and fecaled per asn protocol imo.
That's fine - but if they are coming from the same place - and heading for the same place - I don't see where one would have an issue the other wouldn't...? The LGs are different since I'm getting them from different breeders (so they'll deff be quarantined) - but these guys will be coming from the same place and will likely be shipped together... On this - if I'm wrong - let me know. LG people don't quarantine animals that came from the same breeder.

And I don't think you are being harsh at all. I'm used to high-hp car guys arguing about stuff so your post was a ray of sunshine compared to all that crap lol.

Only thing. Respectfully - since I don't have the experience you do - I've spoken with a few breeders from the NY Rep show last month and ALL 3 of them use 10 gal cages for breeding leucs... They said 20 gals for the Azureus. 10 vertical they said was completely fine for one pair of leucs so long as they have a nice climbable background.

Lets put it this way. If they look or even remotely appear to act stressed - They'll be in 20 gal cages so fast they won't know what hit 'em! Their welfare comes first of course.
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